one of them stole a pedal-boat and two of them started pashing each other. Now that is how you party!

bro.

the next time we're out drinking, remind me to be the one who steals the pedal-boat.

heh.

are...

I don't fancy pashing you

you say that now...

but ignore me. anjum has some actual and serious points.

the vilification of this young woman started almost immediately

Plus ça change.

I...

what was confusing was whether the one selling her story was also the one talking to the police. and i don't think i'm alone in being under...

the media seemed to happy to mix the two up, and thereby make all these girls look bad, i.e. "they might have had it coming".

I thought the Herald on Sunday was particularly bad on that score. Along with their kiddy-porn pics in the feature section, it added up to...

but how about we give the young girl the same courtesy? in other words, let's not assume she's an extortionist or a liar until she is proved to be so.

And that is why I rewrote this post so much. My default position was that she was telling the truth...

A certain NZ cricket player was brushed to the side over a decade ago. A friend told me she never reported what happened to her at 16 with an overseas...

Has anyone else noticed how one of the Turkish players at the centre of their late late late shows at Euro 2008 looks a lot like Damien Christie?

That's Semih Senturk the striker who has...

Bulldogs left a girl naked & bloody – still no conviction.

It's a legal system not a justice system, I fear she'll get no justice & probably put herself through more pain.

From the police stats it's roughly a 60%...

Serendipiditously, Senturk means 'happy Turk'.

As for this Sophie Lewis: I assume...

Maybe do the same with rugby players? There isn't the same issue with not being able to breed from them, for as far as I know, unlike horseracing, no rugby code forbids artificial insemination.

I haven't noticed the media being too harsh on the girls

No, but the English RFU were quite happy to suggest it was a "set up". Yes, because obviously here in New Zealand, home of English-hating inbreds who have nothing better in our lives than rugby, we'd dangle young seductresses...

They geld thoroughbred stallions

heh. my first thought was to question to wisdom of these young women in going to a hotel with a rugby team. but then i realised i was being accepting of the risk these blokes present.

and that's the real story the papers overlooked. why the...

but thank you.

heh. my first thought was to question to wisdom of these young women in going to a hotel with a rugby team. but then i realised i was being accepting of the risk these blokes present.

and that's the real story the papers overlooked. why the hell should young women...

i'm calling bullshit on this one. i take your point that the rugby players are innocent until proven guilty. but how about we give the young girl the same courtesy? in other words, let's not assume she's an extortionist or a liar until she is proved to be so.

Fair...

– should people be carefull around football players (or whoever given their rep)?

– should people have to be carefull in such situations?

obviously it's smart to be carefull around...

why the hell should young women have to consider risk when hanging with these guys? that is unacceptable

If the Satan's Slaves invited me back to their place I don't think I'd be in a huge rush to take them up on the offer.

obviously it's smart to be carefull around scumbags – but equally one shouldn't have to be carefull around scumbags

In a perfect world, of course not. But in an imperfect world, one avoids some bars, parts of town, and people unless one enjoys time in hospital. As noted in another...

craig, there is no evidence that this woman tried to shop her story...

– is it smart to hang around in dangerous places (people)?

– should there be places (people) that are dangerous?

No one should be treated any differently if they're assaulted in a 'good' part of town or a 'bad' part...

No, Che, what I consider unacceptable is fucking naivete... But how about the notion that freedom comes with risks, and women... really have to take some ownership of their own safety.

um... yeah...

another way to look at it is this:

1. group of young women the pub with group...

Satan's Slaves invited me back to their place I don't think I'd be in a huge rush to take them up on the offer.

the satan's slaves are lauded in the press, paid large sums to play, or held up as national heroes.

there's a slight difference there.

It was Angel Barbie (Sophie Lewis) who shopped her story to the press, and by going to the NotW didn't do it in any half measures. Incidentally, it would appear the term "Party Girl" is now an official euphemism.

I'm sure the (ex?) boyfriend of the 18 year-old would...

"Model Sophie Lewis" was dressed as Alice In Wonderland after attending a fancy dress party before meeting up with the rugby players. She is not the complainant of the other allegations... she...

Not quite as straight-forward as that. The players are unlikely to go public even if it was 100% consensual, because of girl-friends / wives at home.

just talk to the police and tell the truth

Somehow doubt that will be the advice from Chris Comesky, Barry Hart or whoever they've got as a lawyer?

so what you guys are saying is that when women see international rugby players, they should obviously think "scumbags, potential rapists, stay well away"? which other group of men should that apply to (other than satan's slaves)?

No, Anjum, from experience I'm suggesting that getting loaded with complete strangers (you...

I'd say the girls summoned by Brooke Howard-Smith (and trust him to be in the thick of it) had pretty clear expectations. According to the likes of The Sun, a lot of them made a bee-line for Mike Tindall (boyfriend of the Zara Philips, 100th or so in line...

so when I heard of the lacrosse team my gut feeling was "guilty".

What's interesting about the lacrosse, is that I saw several news items on the lacrosse team when it first blew up. I think both on our own news, and also The Daily Show covered it too. I...

Whereas in New Zealand, we perhaps don't have...

"what if this young woman was a prostitute and was paid to be there? is rape...

No, Anjum, from experience I'm suggesting that getting loaded with complete strangers (you know, alcohol that solvent of inhibitions and judgement) and going back to the hotel room of a near-total stranger might not be the smartest call you ever make.

This discussion reminds me of some female friends who...

None of us are legally allowed in a bar in her state & that needs to be addressed.

I'd be angry if the All Blacks were to act like this on tour. They'd be representing their country, and I wouldn't expect them to celebrate a defeat with...

I added in the "ex" boyfriend in jest. He was the current boyfriend as of the night in question.

And I'm picking he wasn't too happy at finding out his girlfriend preferred the romantic company of big men with no necks and cauliflower ears.

There's something to do with chemicals and biology here. More athletic looking men are more attractive to women, but have more testosterone which can make them more aggressive.

The girl didn't...

I added in the "ex" boyfriend in jest. He was the current boyfriend as of the night in question.

And I'm picking he wasn't too happy at finding out his girlfriend preferred the romantic company of big men with no necks and cauliflower ears.

Well hopefully the police will find...

I have been reading some of the online rugby forums, and have been amazed at how quickly the "lying slut's jealous boyfriend made allegations of rape" has become...

More athletic looking men are more attractive to women, but have more testosterone which can make them more aggressive.

I am catching a noisome whiff of evolutionary psychology...

I'd be angry if the All Blacks were to act like this on tour. They'd be representing their country, and I wouldn't expect them to celebrate a defeat with binge drinking and dubious sexual behaviour.

Dan Carter and Ali Williams were two of the All Blacks also drinking at the...

What is it with men who want to watch each other having sex with a young woman? Do they ask her if that's okay? What exactly is that about?

There are people into consensual polyamory and all that sort of thing. How is it different from any other unconventional sexual...

Not saying "No" does not equal consent.

Consenting to lap-dance does not entail consenting to sex.

Consenting to having sex with one man does not entail consenting to have sex with other men.

Consenting to having sex with one man at one time...

There are people into consensual polyamory and all that sort of thing. How is it different from any other unconventional sexual behaviour? Isn't it discrimination to suggest that it's intrinsically wrong?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with consensual group sex – whatever floats your boat, etcetera – but I think it's...

I have no idea about how law works, hopefully someone legal can step in

but there are all these noises about the guys being guilty of rape.
but no formal charges from a complainant
however the police are investigating,...

The Duke lacrosse team also threw up some interesting dynamics. University groups and academics at the school assumed the team were guilty and vilified them.

Not just at the university. It became a bit of a cause for all sorts of groups who appeared to regard a bunch of upper...

thank you for such eloquent posts

rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

Meh. I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.

But as Deborah said: not saying "yes" means no – that means you have to ask and get a reply – if you can't ask the answer is probably no

Finally I'd add if the other person can't make that determination (even if they say...

but there are all these noises about the guys being guilty of rape.
but no formal charges from a complainant
however the police are investigating, is this a normal thing for police to investigate something without charges being laid?
or do the police think they have enough information that they...

rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

One suspects that this has something to do with the simultaneous homoeroticism of a bunch of men in shorts groping each other combined with the extreme homophobia...

I think it's men in team situations full stop

actually if we're talking about dodgy behaviour it's people in group-think mode full stop.

group-think encourages people to do all kinds of stupid and/or outright vicious things

rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

Meh. I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.

This is sadly all too...

there's also huge pressure to be a Team and All Guys Together, you know, bros before hos. Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex".

take my word for it, this isn't even exclusively a sports thing.

i've know gangs of public servants who behave the same...

In most cases we say that the person drinking too much isn't absolved of responbsibility for their actions – in fact, it may even be considered to aggravate them (driving, for example).

And being drunk isn't an excuse for raping someone, exactly!

If you were trying to make the other...

take my word for it, this isn't even exclusively a sports thing.

i've know gangs of public servants who behave the same way...

Hmmmm, not all blokes, nor blokes in groups or teams, are sex offenders. I play sport and have had nights out with my team when reasonable quantities...

There's a critical mass dimension to this too; one or two arseholes might not be enough to make a group go feral, four or five does but.

It's part of the whole thing whereby women are seen as the gatekeepers of everyone's sexuality

That's a good analysis Lucy.

Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex". And that kind of atmosphere doesn't lend itself well to thinking about women, especially women you're having a...

There's a critical mass dimension to this too; one or two arseholes might not be enough to make a group go feral, four or five does but.

that's pretty much it. i used to work dispatching taxis, and hen's nights were *feared* by most drivers.

but again, not excusing the...

Deborah:

Not saying "No" does not equal consent.

Obviously, but then Paul:

not saying "yes" means no – that means you have to ask and get a reply – if you can't ask the answer is probably no.

Finally I'd add if the other person can't make that determination...

I guess I'd better let the other people involved know about this.

No need, I've phoned the police on your behalf.

Just as an FYI, Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality.

Please believe me when I say I never thought I was. :P

Cos it seems like it would be really difficult...

I had a read through and these comments were what struck me:

The problem is that the first response to this sort of...

I wanted to add another angle: if the hoi polloi are so keen to blame this woman (18?) because she should have known better then ...

Should we also tell our daughters to STFU when they come home from...

But I agree there's an issue what if you're both too drunk to give consent – are you both guilty of rape?

And that's me as a 33-year-old woman. I wouldn't even want to imagine what the situation would be like if I was 22 years old and pretty.

You plenty pretty for me, and I'm going to stop right there before things become impossibly creepy. :)

Michael Laws even wondered aloud...

It would just be nice if everyone took a little more responsibility for their own alcohol/drug consumption and sexuality.

Are you asking 18 year olds to that or us? Because if you want youth to do it, I think you've got a heck of a task.

(I just realised I...

yes it is – I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it – you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).

While I agree that this would clear up a hell of a lot...

Everyone chiming in with an opinion based on half baked 'knowledge'.

Thank you Nick for stating the obvious. It was about time someone did

Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality.

As a heterosexual male I agree with Craig.

A reasonable compromise might be:

If the allegations were...

some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario

And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

Yes you need to talk – and at a difficult time when you're both trying to be too cool/not too crass, and are...

While I agree that this would clear up a hell of a lot of grey area, the reality of it seems like some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario.

"My dear, my I gently fondle your testicles?"
"The left one only, please. I don't feel I know you well enough for both."

Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.

Nope, in another high profile rape case in the States (the details of which escape me now), women tended to believe the accused (men), while men tended to believe the...

I don't believe that this is any kind of exoneration but is it something to consider? Is it accidental rape?

I think mutual drunkenness is a really, really tricky one. The trick, really, is to be aware of the situation before you go into it. Like Paul suggests: get full...

yes it is – I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it – you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).

I don't entirely agree with this.

I'd like to think that consent is more...

And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

I think it's relevant because (a) it's a fantastic, fun movie featuring a...

As a heterosexual male I agree with Craig.

Are you seriously not seeing the difference here between me claiming to take responsibility for your personal sexuality and my statement about the way society in general seems to view women and sex?

featuring a kickass performance from a very hot leads Melanie Griffith and David Andrews

Whoops, sub-editing FAIL. I was originally just exhorting the hawtness of David Andrews, when I realised that Melanie Griffith fair sizzles as well. Oh well.

And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

The career of Melanie Griffith (Film debut — Body Double, exhibit A for...

Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.

Nope.

In fact, I questioned what the hell Graham Henry was thinking when it appeared that he was doing this.

You ain't my brother when you're acting like an ass.

And if she has stated that to the Police, shouldn't that be enough to press a charge?

BTW, this brave new world of no...

In fact, I questioned what the hell Graham Henry was thinking when it appeared that he was doing this.

I forgot to ask about this, when did it happen because the only coach I heard speak on the matter was Steve Hanson. quite early on he said (to the effect...

A reasonable compromise might be:

If the allegations were true then the rugby players should be censored.

What, not prosecuted?

In the absence of proof we are better to let matters take their course and wait until a misdemeanor is proved.

"Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.

when did it happen because the only coach I heard speak on the matter was Steve Hanson

Friday – NZ Herald; links (and my earlier comment/question) here

I don't know, this one where drunk sex with strangers is good clean fun and god knows how many unplanned pregnancies, STD infections, and rapes occur because of it is pretty horrific for me. And generally speaking, it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

God yes. The...

it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

Amen. My first drunk sex experience ended up with way too much vomit, but that's a story for another time. (Note: during sex any vomit is too much)

Although the girl who sold her story said she had the best...

"Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.

Obviously what was meant was NOT the corrupted legal definition (of an offence of limited seriousness) but the "true" one (plainly and simply, a misdeed).

And rightly so too :)

And if she has stated that to the Police, shouldn't that be enough to press a charge?

A statement to the police is not a requirement to arrest and charge someone, though obviously it normally happens and helps the police. Domestic violence in particular for couple of decades now it's...

(Note: during sex any vomit is too much)

Not just sex... pretty much any endeavor actually.... except pelicans and helicopters.

I took Graham Henries reported comments not as support for the English behaviour, or even solidarity for accused "brothers"... but merely not being wanted to be seen as taking shots at them.....

Quite. There will have been a bunch of English journalists walking around with chips on their shoulders. If...

Writing in the UK Telegraph, Matt Stevens (England prop) plays the victim:

There isn't too much I can say about the investigation by the police. As a...

(and that might even have included "no comment")

I think he should've gone with "no comment". We're all speculating on a serious allegation, based on next to no information. By comparison, who cares what the idiots at the Sun or the Daily Mail think.

The South Africans used the tactic of throwing attractive women at the All Blacks frequently on the 1970 tour there.

Allegedly.

What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)

So the girls were in on the whole thing? Brilliant deduction!

Only a fevered...

There isn't too much I can say about the investigation by the police. As a squad we have taken a decision that we will not discuss the details in public and I have to abide by that.

To me, this means that entire squad has a question mark over its...

I think he should've gone with "no comment". We're all speculating on a serious allegation, based on next to no information. By comparison, who cares what the idiots at the Sun or the Daily Mail think.

Mark: The Sun and The Daily Mail don't "think". They also seem to have...

What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)

There is a siege mentality out here and that's what makes it so difficult...

Stevens is the prop who got completely worked over by Tialata of all people; particularly in Auckland.

The problem isn't the argument that women need to take more care in where they get drunk and who they do it with ....................

Lucy I do agree with most of what you said in this post so withdraw the comment on your responsibility. But l do think men are...

Stevens is the prop who got completely worked over by Tialata of all people; particularly in Auckland.

Heh heh, thanks. I actually knew who he was.

What I meant was: is he a fevered genius or a complete arsehole? :)

I'd say he's just got a good idea of what your average Daily Telegraph reader would lap up.

But l do think men are responsible for their own actions.

That was kind of my point; that men are responsible for their own actions, and the women-as-gatekeepers thing is a damaging myth because it tells a story where all men want sex all the time and so can't be...

That was kind of my point; that men are responsible for their own actions, and the women-as-gatekeepers thing is a damaging myth because it tells a story where all men want sex all the time and so can't be held really responsible where sex is involved.

Agreed Lucy – it...

In short: What Lucy, Deborah, Anjum, Sue, Danielle, and a number of other people already said, about consent, about women, about men, about sex, about rape.

What concerns me most about this current situation is the...

What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you.

Wow, what a tosser making excuses for his frankly average rugby team.

Assuming that a sexual...

Case in point, everyone! Consenting to a quiet drink does not entail...

thank god for here.

If you ever needed convincing of the tragedy that is kiwiblog, the thread on this issue is conclusive proof; imagine the most sexist crap you've ever heard and you pretty much have it. Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.

God, I just read it. Really...

Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.

Paul: Can you please leave me out of that pathology? I sure wouldn't want to see Russell (who I also consider a friend and a honourable and decent man) judged by certain parties hereabouts.

they're going to be getting the shame-making Big Gay Uncle Craig lecture about respecting themselves, respecting others and not letting anyone pressure them into doing a damn thing to the contrary.

Mutatis mutandis, sounds like what I will be doing with my daughters, Craig.

I'm suspecting perhaps we should draw a line between commentators and friends?
ok those are two very different things

Craig, there is no comparison whatsoever between commenters who habitually dwell on Kiwiblog and those on PA, and you damn well know it.

Simon G: I wouldn't waste my piss on Tom Semmens if his head was on fire. While he tones it way down on PA, he's certainly not...

There is no "loony left" equivalent of Kiwiblog, there is no comfortable home for racism, misogyny, and general bigotry, and unless Tom has been cloned a hundred times over, and has been pouring filth on every...

and Julie...

Craig, you're fond of appearing bipartisan, but balance is not a substitute for truth.

Simon g:

You've presumed to tell me the contents of my own mind.

You've also, however nicely coded, called me a partisan hack, a liar and an apologist for people I hold in nothing but contempt...

What I don't see is racism, bigotry, misogyny etc. But I see that almost every time I visit Kiwiblog (in the comments threads), and I think that's far worse than...

What I don't see is racism, bigotry, misogyny etc. But I see that almost every time I visit Kiwiblog (in the comments threads), and I think that's far worse than getting nasty about John Key, or whatever.

Well, Simon, I don't actually think being in public life means you're asking...

An English rugby official says a rape allegation against four players was "designed to destabilise" the tour – and suggests Kiwis' bitterness at their early exit from the Rugby World Cup might also be a relevant factor.

The original article is here. The official quoted seems to...

Just like I did. And I don't believe she deserves the contempt being heaped upon her.

Yeah, and unfortunately the major thing likely to dissuade her from making a complaint, assuming there's one to be made, is that the English press will doubtless orchestrate a smear campaign in favour of...

I've always got the option of turning my attention elsewhere for the next four to five months.

we all know that isn't true.

you're drawn here craig, drraaaawwwwnnn heeree.

heh.

although... pot. kettle. etc.

meh.

An English rugby official says a rape allegation against four players was "designed to destabilise" the tour – and suggests Kiwis' bitterness at their early exit from the Rugby World Cup might also be a relevant factor.

I saw this article this morning too and thought "stay classy England". Even...

Yeah, and unfortunately the major thing likely to dissuade her from making a complaint, assuming there's one to be made, is that the English press will doubtless orchestrate a smear campaign in favour of "our poor boys".

Probably not unlike the one that's starting to emerge already – although it's...

They really do think we're angry little colonials, don't they?

Well, RB, it would be nice if some folks didn't try so damn hard to live down to it all. Remember when the AB's being knocked out of the World Cup lead to a holocaust of national mourning and domestic violence?...

Football hooligans, anyone?

It's always tough on the hooligans when your team isn't in the tournament

Make of this what you will
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:England_rugby_training_at_bath_arp.jpg

"If the mildest allegations are true, the actions reveal something seriously amiss in the squad, its attitude, its hierarchy and the way the players are treated,"

And that was Stephen Jones

The way the players are treated?

Yup — because, Lucy, I just don't believe that kind of behaviour just comes out of the ether. Look at it this way, I go to work and am expected to meet various standards of professional conduct, not least among them I don't harass,...

Sue said:

Can i reccomend nobody read kiwiblog on this, i did after what paul said, and i pretty much threw up after reading the comments.

I should have said that myself, sorry. And sorry too, to Simon G.

Finally, Craig:

Paul: Can...

'I wish these allegations had bee brought before the court, because as things stand there's still a cloud hanging over some of our lads and that's not fair'.

I will be... interested... to see if any of the English players break ranks and name names. There are five players, after...

I think he all too often sets up threads that lead to incredibly predictable commentary and I don't think he can avoid some responsibility for that.

Paul: I've said myself that in Farrar's position, I'd just set comments to full moderation and tell about a dozen or so individuals
(including...

Is he responsible for this level of intolerance; no. Should he enable it;...

sorry can't recall where I heard this over the weekend but (poss TV3) it mentioned that the guys in question were single without wives or girlfriends and that disquiet amongst the remaining players was surfacing as they wanted their names cleared for the benefit of family etc.

The English Rugby...

Craig, I think David's 'management model' is dependent upon throwing out the odd thread that's designed to create a swam of beligerants spewing abuse.

Paul: I think those people would go off if Farrar posted something as inoccuous as 'Flowers pretty, sun warm, me happy." Otherwise, I'm sure he and...

The downside to that 'tude is you may just find more people saying 'OK then..." than you'd like.

Exactly what I've done. David posts some stuff that I find interesting however. He's clearly well informed and comes from a different perspective which makes some of blog interesting. What's frustrating however,...

The names of the four players are now public though the matter remains confused.

And the Sun keeps it classy as always by describing them as being at the centre of "sex allegations", and consistently referring to the girl by her profession. Charming.

And the Sun keeps it classy as always by describing them as being at the centre of "sex allegations", and consistently referring to the girl by her profession. Charming.

Yeah I noticed that too. From the Sun:

The players involved feel under pressure and angry. They are single guys who...

Where they offer you a feature
On stockings and suspenders
Next to a call for stiffer penalties for sex offenders

http://www.billybragg.co.uk/releases/singles/between_wars/between4.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1331738.ece

Just to be devils advocate here,Lucy, What would the Sun call her. You don't know her name ,do you?And I'm sorry but that is all it is so far, a Sex allegation.

You can be damn sure that if she was an accountant or a factory worker that wouldn't be...

One of the named four, is also the one that 'Angel' has named and said could not be involved....

I see many possibilities...

1) Newspaper has made a mistake, or is reporting false...

I wonder how...

On naming & shaming, by way of occupation.
Anyone else notice the victim stated as a lapdancer & Sophie Lewis aka Angel Barbie, but named as Angel by the Sun is a model.