For me, it was that anti-section 59 that got my goat up. I've some sympathy for the proposition, but you...

This whole exercise...

I think that not having parliamentary elections and referendums on the same ballot is a healthy thing...

Big fan of democracy there, Tom?

Be fair there, Graeme. At least Tom is being upfront that his argument is all about electoral expedience and there's no actual legal or practical barriers involved. In a way, this is on a par with nobody buying Clark's justification for calling a snap...

Graeme are you telling me the lies that Family Fist and co used to beat up this piece of disgraceful hysteria showed a great deal of respect for informed democracy?

Mr Pot, let me introduce you to Mr. Kettle – you have so much in common. (And I'm saying that...

"getting a particular initiative on the vote that would get your supporters out to vote"

That explains why California has one of the highest rates of voter turn-outs at state-level elections.

I fail to see how this is a bad thing. If it encourages an otherwise apathetic voting public to...

I OEed in California for 20 years – there getting a particular initiative on the vote that would get your supporters out to vote is a time honoured strategy (esp. by the Republicans)

Paul: I'm no expert on the byzantine innards of the California State Constitution regarding ballot propositions, but...

Why is spending $10m on a referendum that could easily be run for a few hundred thousand a good idea (other than you disagree with the position of those asking for it)?

I'm not super fussed by where it sits but my answer to your question would be to maintain...

Graeme are you telling me the lies that Family Fist and co used to beat up this piece of disgraceful hysteria showed a great deal of respect for informed democracy?

Yeah – that a little over the top. Sorry Tom. I'm interested in whether the lies you mention were as...

Elections should be fought on ideas – not with voter suppression tricks

While we're at it how about banning people running push-polls on the public purse – another evil american...

Family Fist and...

Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?

Even if that was binding, which it won't be, what does that mean in terms of the mutated section 59 we now have? That parental correction will be added to the list of exceptions?...

I am with Gareth there. I suspect that behind the petition is a group who are using the issue to embarrass the Government.

*blink* First, perhaps there are always multiple issues on which the Government of the day (whatever colour rosette its wearing) should be embarrassed over. Every frigging day,...

saying you're not making smacking a criminal offence (they were, and it's now illegal, when it wasn't before)

Well, to be truly pedantic, it was illegal before, of the nature of assault. There just happened to be a defence, which has now been removed.

And as Tom says, FF et...

"Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?

or

Should...

People just don't want to accept that s59 let people get away with blatant assaults on their kids.

Matthew: And there were plenty of us out there who believed S. 59 of the Crimes Act needed to go, but had concerns about the Bradford Bill. I'm also one of those...

Isn't this proposed question, in its wording, just a touch biased?

It's the same question, just or instead of yes/no. People should be smart enough to figure out where they stand on the question, voting in the referendum isn't rocket science.

I have more of a problem with smacking being...

I suspect that behind the petition is a group who are using the issue to embarrass the Government.

Really? That might be a nice side-effect, but I'm pretty confident they just really really disagree with the Government and want the law changed.

Well, to be truly pedantic, it was illegal...

And there were plenty of us out there who believed S. 59 of the Crimes Act needed to go, but had concerns about the Bradford Bill.

The bill in its original form (just removing section 59) was legally quite clear, not matter how you felt about it. It got turned...

The rest...

At best we have had one that deserved any attention – the very first one on the fire service.

Wasn't the first CIR basically "do you like firefighters?"

And I agree that the law and order one was stuffed, but the 99 MP one was perfectly sensible as a referendum...

Steve, URL for your blog entry?

First, perhaps there are always multiple issues on which the Government of the day (whatever colour rosette its wearing) should be embarrassed over.

Absolutely, I have no issue with the referendum being called, or timing it around an election year, politically charged as that may be (although am fairly certain...

Hey Craig, just out of curiosity when confronted IRL does the bluster go away and all we are left with is an unattractive whining gay guy with a big mouth?

Tom. Thanks for proving my point. You should, however, leave the bitchy dish to the unattractive gay guys. You suck...

The real distaste fo this is we are talking about bringing back violence to children. Go smack the first person you see on the street and see what happens.

There are so many countries that simply totally banned hitting kids. No debate. No reaction so why such an issue in NZ?

I can't be sure, but maybe they were honest about it?

__Yes, we know that you don't beat your children, and that children who are lightly smacked and...

Graeme, how does that square with the use of that defence having to be tested in court, though? I guess it's just the semantics of "innocent until proven guilty", right?

Not just the semantics. The police can also look at the matter and say – oh yeah, he had a...

I think we're still defining what "fine" is.

Hey Craig, just out of curiosity when confronted IRL does the bluster go away and all we are left with is an unattractive whining gay guy with a big mouth?

Ouch! I doubt that Craig needs anyone to defend himself, but Tom, that's pretty much out-of-line around PAS. Insult someone's...

If the question is 'Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?' and good parenting doesn't fall into these clauses:

1. Every parent of a child... is justified...

Leaving the specific issue to one side, I don't think holding CIRs at the same time as the general election is a good idea regardless of what they are. The general election is...

The real distaste fo this is we are talking about bringing back violence to children.

Bringing back? I don't know about you, but the classic 'time out' sure strikes me as a classic – and stunningly effective — form of psychological abuse. Seriously, what is a time out other than...

Wasn't the first CIR basically "do you like firefighters?"

I was rather too young (14 at the time) to vote on that one, but that's a very, very simplified version of the matter. "Do you think Roger Estall is an insurance industry stooge who wants to save his pals lots...

And if they do get confused about that, then I suspect their vote isn't going to...

That still doesn't mean you can't legislate against violence. Tell me IYHO has the 1980's NZ gay legislation helped make this country a friendlier place for our gay brother and sisters.

We can ony try.

voter turnout in CA elections is crap, especially for off year ones (makes it even easier to play this game)

It is, but it's still better than most of the US – (http://elections.gmu.edu/voter_turnout.htm).

Elections should be fought on ideas – not with voter suppression tricks

I still fail to see...

Yes, we seem to sadly have to revisit this debate nationally.

No, it doesn't need to be highlighted above the complexity and volume of information we are waiting to...

Graeme, I can't help but wonder if your support for the reform isn't colouring your perspective here.

I always wonder if that is the case, but I'd really like to think it isn't. I know my support for election finance reform didn't stop me taking issue with arguments that were...

Ouch! I doubt that Craig needs anyone to defend himself, but Tom, that's pretty much out-of-line around PAS. Insult someone's arguments all you like, but not the person themselves.

Ditto on Deborah's comment too. I was shocked at Tom's person swipe at Craig. This is not what PA System is...

As for the semantics, a "justification" as you put it isn't an automatic way out of prosecution.

And nor is not being around when the crime was committed and having nothing do with it at all. You can be completely and totally innocent and still have to go through a...

--enclose whatever you're quoting.--

I get it! Thanks

Yes, we seem to sadly have to revisit this debate nationally.

No, it doesn't need to be highlighted above the complexity and volume of information we are waiting to recieve from new leaders as an election looms.

Jeremy: I get where you're coming from, but I don't really think that...

You're such a liberal Craig. Remember we are setting up logic boundaries for "hardwiring fantastic but sometimes crazy" kids so they can hang...

So how long did N.Z take to make sensible sexual law based on natural law and was this wait justified for those who died sexual criminals before 1984?

The debate needs to be fueled with education and...

We need some sort of punishment effect and it's not a nice feeling for the kid, but the kid was about to unload mayhem everywhere on everyone so we remove them from that state of mind .

Actually "time out" is not supposed to be a punishment as much as...

sure, good point.

I do think deliberately timing the referendum to ensure a low turnout is anti-democratic (as some here have suggested). And if it's held other than at the election, I've stated that that will have been at the option (and expense) of the Government, and not because of force...

We need some sort of punishment effect and it's not a nice feeling for the kid, but the kid was about to unload mayhem everywhere on everyone so we remove them from that state of mind .

I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, but a 'time out' is a...

If all politics is theatre, then non-binding citizen-initiated referenda are mimes — sublimely pointless and stupid

Nice!

But — with apologies for drifting back to the original post — I still think GE nicely fingered the essentially bogus nature of Clark's logistical argument against having this question put on E-Day.

I was thinking of whining about how this post is already at four pages of comments, while...

Apparently they could have done it, but would have needed to have started in April. The childbeaters were simply too late.

Apparently they could have done it, but would have needed to have started in April.

This simply has to be false. We've had competently run snap elections on much much less than 7 months notice.

This simply has to be false. We've had competently run snap elections on much much less than 7 months notice.

Yes, but the Chief Electoral Office is funded for that capability, and you'll note that the last two were in election year, when preparations for an election were already well-advanced...

Okay, that may be inflammatory but I'm kinda inflamed my self. I could only take the first page of comments before leaping in with this:

How can you stand for Democracy...

It will be interesting to see the actual advice and see what they have to say about the logistics.

It will be interesting to see if the response provides you with anything you want to know.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you here, but a 'time out' is a pretty useful and low-key exploitation of a pretty basic fear children have of being isolated.

I don't know how other people use time out, but I use it to give a child (or occasionally, myself) space from...

"Hiding behind Ministry of Justice advice is cowardly. She should tell the truth and...

we must conclude that Labour have really stuffed this country up in the last 9 years by appointing more incompetent people than we imagined.

"As soon as the Referendum is officially approved by the Clerk of the House I will be calling on the hundreds of thousands who signed the...

Of course the referendum must – and will – be held, if there are enough signatures. And there is clearly a strong case for the referendum to be held on election day, on simple practicalities alone. But I think you have fallen into John Key's trap (and it is...

Hiding behind Ministry of Justice advice is cowardly. She should tell the truth and admit that it is her intention to do all she can to avoid this referendum at the election for her own political reasons," said Mr Baldock.

There you have it folks. The real agenda has been...

Which is more important: the date of the referendum, or Parliament's response to the referendum?

The date, for democratic reasons. Parliament is able to respond how it chooses irrespective of the date or result of that referendum.

The response to this referendum will come from a new Parliament, even if the referendum is held on election day. Therefore, the views of the new Parliament will determine the outcome.

I was thinking of whining about how this post is already at four pages of comments, while some of my more considered pieces languish with far fewer..

Heh – I love what you write and always take the time to read it. But the one on the 26th did take...

The date, for democratic reasons. Parliament is able to respond how it chooses irrespective of the date or result of that referendum.

I'm afraid I don't follow how a referendum conducted in October and blighthly ignored by Parliament is MORE democratic than one conducted in March with ensuing policy action?

We elect a Parliament with multiple parties on the basis of those parties complete set of policies. If people (like the Kiwi party or whetever they are called) feel like...

The fundamental problem with CIR's is that they often reduce a grey issue into a simplistic yes/no answer.

That's also a problem with all law. The Greens will be faced supporting or opposing an Emissions Trading Scheme, and it's a yes/no question.

__The motion is that the Climate Change (Emissions...

The fundamental problem with CIR's is that they often reduce a grey issue into a simplistic yes/no answer.

There's nothing wrong with a yes/no answer, and our politicians give them all the time on actual legislation. Which points out the real problem: that our CIR system allows referenda on vague,...

Gareth what a stupid thing to say

Given the question posed and the answer you gave, it may be a little brave of you to wave the stupid epithet around.
If you've read the thread you'll understand my position on this...

I/S – It's interesting the Act presumes a preference...

Referendums certainly make more sense as a final veto to actual legislation, I agree.

In this case, however, I'm not sure whether your wording would be better – I imagine a fair proportion of people who signed the petition (if fewer who...

But, yes, CIRs are rare. About as rare as...

Dave, that doesn't make sense. What is the referendum for?

Making a couple of hundred thousand NZers feel briefly better about themselves, and then pissed off and disenchanted with the political process.

As for whether its really impractical, unlike Family Fist, I'm not given to dark conspiratorial mutterings about the perniciousness of government departments. I certainly expect the electoral bodies to give me a straight answer on whether its logistically possible or not.

I'd be curious to see what result you get...

I imagine a fair proportion of people who signed the petition (if fewer who were behind it) actually support an amendment to the status quo ante, whether Chester Borrows' or John Key's.

Then let them put up something specific, so we can vote on it. Because the vague, leading motherhood...

The CEO is not funded to conduct CIR and whichever option is adopted, a between budget bid would be required if either petition is successful.

At first glance I fail to see why four months isn't long enough to organise a simple referendum with one question and a yes/no answer. But there are likely to be complications that I don't know about.

The argument from the PM in the House today was that there would...

absolutely if something is so topical it requires a referendum that debate deserves to be isolated for thorough re-discussion not yanked into the forefront of a hugely complex election discussion.

How many causes could you...

because thats a bad time for childbeating discussion, it's not child beating discussion weather.

Blam. The whole thing has partisan politics written all over it now – reinforcing my view that it shouldn't be muddling up a general election ballot paper.

Good God yes.

Because we know, don't we, that people just can't cope with partisan politics happening during election campaigns. They're just not...

Kyle: here.
...
Its from the Chief Electoral Office, dated March, and seems to say exactly what the Pm says it does.

And if this had been released a couple of months ago when the decision was presumable made, without the PM using it as some sort of "Gotcha" we...

And if this had been released a couple of months ago when the decision was presumable made, without the PM using it as some sort of "Gotcha" we might have avoided all of this...

Indeed. But that would have required someone to be proactive about the release of official information,...

How many causes could you feasibly get 300,000 signatures for?Alright we'll spend taxpayers money on rediscussing and voting on this but it shouldn't dominate our election.

Who "our" kemosabe? As I said, I'd be quite happy to see the CIR Act repealed, but until then... For all Idiot/Savant's snark about...

Craig: When given a choice between the views of the Chief Electoral Office and faith-based conspiracy loonies on what is and isn't possible, please forgive me for choosing the former.

Idiot/Savant: I take the advice of the Chief Electoral Office very seriously — certainly more seriously than the Prime Minister...

Sometimes man i really think you're just cheering the team. This issue by definition of it's importance enough to raise a referendum is now on the political...

"And no-one said the referendum should be "buried." Just put it at a suitable time."

absolutely if something is so topical it requires a referendum that debate deserves to be isolated for thorough re-discussion not yanked into the forefront of a hugely complex election discussion.

Oh Puh-lease. Anyone with any...

SO discussion is a bad thing , it's violence buddy, it deserves discussion.

I take the advice of the Chief Electoral Office very seriously — certainly more seriously than the Prime Minister has on occasion over the last three years or so.

No doubt you'll be reassured by the fact that she's taking it so seriously now.

It defies basic maths to suggest...

It is worth bearing in mind that the one election in which there was also a CIR ballot was a shambles in which the votes took far too long to be counted and everybody complained.

I remember that election. In the fallout from it all, was it the CIR that...

You've made some fair points but you characterise the argument for separating CIRs from elections as being somehow disingenuous. As if, advocating for their separation either (a) about avoiding any reconsideration of the amendment or (b) insults public intelligence.

I don't think that's reasonable.

My view is that would...

If you read the document that I/S linked to, you'll see that money isn't a prime factor. Where it's mentioned the primary concern is that they don't have any money for it at all, so would have to bid for additional money between budgets.

I don't think the funding is...

well put, and Nick we are the masses.

Sometimes man i really think you're just cheering the team.

And sometimes, Jeremy, I resist the urge to give snide comments like that the slap they deserve. Aren't you a lucky bugger that this is one of them?

It is worth bearing in mind that the one election in which...

I don't think the funding is really a problem if the will is there. All it takes to get some extra dosh lined up is ten minutes around the cabinet table on a monday morning.

It's that easy for the Chief Electoral Office to get extra funds? Really? I find...

It's that easy for the Chief Electoral Office to get extra funds? Really? I find that rather hard to believe. There's a reason that the Budget is handled in legislation.

Fair comment, Matthew. Which is why I'm wondering why the CEO doesn't believe there's adequate resourcing to handle a CIR...

Which is why I'm wondering why the CEO doesn't believe there's adequate resourcing to handle a CIR being part of the election ballot.

This is covered in that document. More booths, more staff, more counters. I didn't read it closely, but it seemed to be saying that the postal ballot...

It is worth bearing in mind that the one election in which there was also a CIR ballot was a shambles in which the votes took far too long to be counted and everybody complained.

Its worth bearing n mind that the Chief Electoral Office didn't organise it properly. Its...

what Steve Withers just said

Yeah, it's bizarre/appalling/sickening that a jury could accept the Section 59 defence in those instances. It defies logic, and yet because juries kept acquitting the new legislation became imperative.

Maybe we need similar legislation for the Police, since one jury at least thinks 4 policemen batoning...

It's that easy for the Chief Electoral Office to get extra funds? Really? I find that rather hard to believe. There's a reason that the Budget is handled in legislation.

Yes it is that easy. In fact it happens on an almost weekly basis. Where else do you think those...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCydiTNFbZc&feature=related

the slap? shut up and write.

This is covered in that document. More booths, more staff, more counters.

Well, Kyle, the Hunn/Smith Review of the General Election Process 1999 expressed concerns over the number of polling places, staff numbers and training, and whether voters and poll workers were 'confused' by the then relatively new MMP ballot...

the slap? shut up and write.

My pleasure. Don't fucking call me a party hack again, arse-wipe. If I'm wrong on a point of fact, please put me right. If you've got a counter argument, bring it on. Who knows, you might just change my mind.

But in case you...

grow up, look at your writing, accept the comment. You come across as a...

look at your writing, accept the comment. You come across as a man wildly in love with the national party so don't be surprised to hear that as a criticism.

grow up.

I may be a voice in the wilderness here, but Craig's comments don't come across that way on...

Section 194(a) in the Crimes Act outlaws assulat on children. Section 59 offered a legal defence of reasonable force for purposes of correction. ... Assault on Children was never "legal".

False.

By analogy:

__Section 209 of the Crimes Act outlaws kidnapping. Section 26 offers a legal defence of executing a...

Take your own advice — stick to the topic and avoid the snide and gratuitous accusations of bad faith. If you can't do that, don't be so damn precious when you get a reaction.

And WTF are you going on about with this: "You come across as a man...

(So I hope it's part of the general election, because that's the only kind I vote in from over here.)

What a shame he didn't also recognise our wisdom on the bleeding Criminal Procedure Bill...

You can really tell I was cheering National on to support that abortion root and branch, can't you?

Don't tell Grant Dexter. That bill was an act as soon as it was first drafted.

You can really tell I was cheering National on to support that abortion root and branch, can't you?

Don't tell Grant Dexter. That bill was an act as soon as it was first drafted.

Shit, don't go putting that kind of thing in front of me at work. I've snorted...

Don't tell Grant Dexter. That bill was an act as soon as it was first drafted.

Heh. I had to think about that twice before I got it.

Annette King owned Bill English on Morning Report this morning.

Meh... I'll give it another go, but I just zone out when King and English try to bellow over each other. But if you paraphrase is correct, it was a nice dodge on the part of Annette King. I had...

If that's what you think that's something i will have to consider...but just to throw it back at me as some form of rebuttal is poor.

If that's what you think that's something i will have to consider...but just to throw it back at me as some form of rebuttal is poor.

As I understand it, parliament after 1999 passed a law to avoid having CIR and elections at the same time, because 1999 was a bit of a mess. Not just as an option if they couldn't do it at the same time, but as a preference.

If they'd wanted to...

hitting children is disgusting, hitting anyone is digusting..

and on the subject of hitting when anyone talks about slapping me (even conceptually) i get quite fucked off and defensive.

Well, I am sincerely sorry if you a very strongly worded exception to your attack on my honesty as a physical...

It's hardly a scandal to note your strong National Party leanings , if you want poiltical integrity then earn it.

If that's what you think that's something i will have to consider

Good-oh – that was the idea on my part.

but just to throw it back at me as some form of rebuttal is poor.

Is it just? I thought it was a pretty charmless swipe in the first...

It's hardly a scandal to note his strong National Party leanings. But yes it lacks charm for sure.