And oddly apposite, because plagiarism does make me feel grief-y, as if it's a loss of some kind.

The Herald story makes it sound like the Garth George excuse: that it was quoting that was accidentally not attributed. I get the feeling it's not that...

You'll be able to read the results in the Listener on Monday, or earlier, if you are a subscriber.

Yup — got our copy this morning. Excellent detective work on your part, and for all the bitching of the Listener that goes on in these parts, isn't it rather flattering...

So I understand: was there a mix of attributed and non-attributed stuff in the book? The Herald reads as if there were just some attributions left off a list.

I get the feeling it's not that simple?

It's definitely complex; the quotes were mostly tweaked and then spliced into the surrounding text. The Listener will have a sidebar featuring some of the more significant examples.

It's definitely complex; the quotes were mostly tweaked and then spliced into the surrounding text. The Listener will have a sidebar featuring some of the more significant examples.

Oooooooh. That's...problematic. I know it can be easy to unconsciously re-use someone else's turn of phrase, but that sounds a bit more...

So I understand: was there a mix of attributed and non-attributed stuff in the book? The Herald reads as if there were just some attributions left off a list.

Ben: Since Jolisa is far too polite, let me be a proxy pimp and urge you to buy The Listener. :)...

The words will fall back into place but it will take time. Talking with friends helped me, as did walking over most of Auckland...

Especially since it cannot be known whether the list of unattributed passages is complete — given that we are told that the copying was unintentional, no-one can know for sure whether the list they looked at is exhaustive.

That's...problematic.

That's a word. It's not the one that sprang to my mind. Or yours, right?

you did have to go through the proofs of your book more than once, didn't you?

I'm just going to giggle in a slightly unhinged fashion. Yes, more than once. More than fuckloads.

Best wishes from an unmet cousin-in-law.

More soon, just off to talk to Radio NZ.

I'm just going to giggle in a slightly unhinged fashion. Yes, more than once. More than fuckloads.

Heh... that's what you get for being scrupulous and literate as well as a slashingly hot piece of arse. Bear your burden proudly, lovely Emma.

At least you're not as bad as Neil...

it's oddly apposite, because plagiarism does make me feel grief-y, as if it's a loss of some kind

And they call it a victimless crime. It has been a very queasy...

mostly tweaked and then spliced into the surrounding text

Ruh-roh. (Sometimes, only the pidgin dog-English of Scooby-Doo can fully express my feelings.)

That's a word. It's not the one that sprang to my mind. Or yours, right?

Mostly as a euphemism for "a fucking stupid thing to do", I will admit.

The Herald reports that "He said of the 528 page novel, less than 0.4 per cent had been published without acknowledgement." I guess I'm not the only one who thought, "that's... (hmmm... 20 pages?)... quite a lot, actually."

It's an odd feeling, when you're reading an essay, and something doesn't quite seem right. The language changes subtly, or sometimes not so subtly. The...

scrupulous and literate as well as a slashingly hot piece of arse

I'm shitted that's a bit long for a t-shirt. See, this is why I keep telling people you're lovely.

Mostly as a euphemism for "a fucking stupid thing to do", I will admit.

And "pretty much impossible to...

Lots of students will have got back big red zeros on essays for doing something similar.

As I said to Jolisa in an email, the Department of Engineering at UoC would kick people out of the course for plagiarism (depending on severity).

The logic being that engineers can so very...

HOWTO: Secular White Man's Funeral.

hmmm... 20 pages?

0.4% = 2 pages

Which is exactly 2 pages too many.

It's weird an engineering school would simply throw someone out for this and for an engineer writing is not the whole of the craft. Quite rightly of course because it speaks to integrity and for an...

0.4% = 2 pages

Oh, shit. So it does.

Perhaps my previous comment should be squashed, if that's felt appropriate.

It's weird an engineering school would simply throw someone out for this and for an engineer writing is not the whole of the craft. Quite rightly of course because it speaks to integrity and for an engineer integrity = lives.

Engineers belong to a professional body which has a code...

Perhaps my previous comment should be squashed, if that's felt appropriate.

No — because, as Bart said, two pages of plagiarism is two too many.

But here's a question that's nagging me: Does Penguin NZ, which is a division of the second largest publishing group on Earth, bother with the...

(I know this because I was once dragooned into helping mark first-year engineering students' essays on why engineers were professionals rather than, e.g., common tradesmen. Plagiarism would have provided some light relief. And grammar.)

That bit of first year engineering is hilarious; I was reading one of my flatmate's old...

Ruh-roh. (Sometimes, only the pidgin dog-English of Scooby-Doo can fully express my feelings.)

Oh, I've been whimpering like Scrappy all week. Tis not a pleasant task, and I'm still feeling a bit cautious and shellshocked by it all. But it was nice, as a recovering academic, to venture into dusty...

"scrupulous and literate as well as a slashingly hot piece of arse"

I'm shitted that's a bit long for a t-shirt.

Think outside the box, Emma – it's perfect for a cover blurb for Vol 2 of NSFW.

Frankly, I'd get it tattooed around your waist, starting by coiling around...

Your family has lost quite a man. Glad he is a presence in your blog.

I'd like to say something I didn't end up blogging at the time.

The Gracewood family's public send-off for Wallace was inspirational. Nearly all the family spoke, and there was a slide show, a performance...

Aside: among the greater things I regret about Dad's passing was that we did not record his 'Fun'eral as an instructional video.

HOWTO: Secular White Man's Funeral.

Oh it's a shitter that we don't have the clarity of mind to think of these things at the time, Ben. But then,...

. LIke how to get through the next few weeks, never mind the funeral, without collapsing into a puddle of sorrow.

Nah, that bit's easy. You just have to organise the birth of a wonderful baby daughter for two days after your Dad's burial. I couldn't recommended highly enough.

I...

What a witty pity to show the integrity of action and independence of thought normally attributed to politicians, truly witless.

There must have been a bustle in his hedgerow.

But happily for Prof I., Auckland University appears to be more relaxed about this kind of thing. (Unless Bart's depressing theory has something in it...)

Sadly I think it's right on the money (pun fully intended).

The inadvertent plagiarising is usually dead obvious, it's the smart ones that I'm sure...

I have my Listener here, but I will read it tomorrow morning and savour it.

Of course, some of us don't have ready access to The Listener, so if anyone happened to be able to scan and e-mail the pages, why, that would be a very good thing.

('Though as...

That institution's response is entirely predictable. Students caught plagiarizing are usually given "big red zeros" as someone put it...

Is it too time-consuming to take plagiarism seriously?

Perhaps; also, bad for business, as noted upthread. And I think Emma's original comment points to something interesting too – there's a strange contagious shame about it.

As my partner discovered when had explained why he'd had to rush home to wrangle...

Regarding Turnitin, I've had experience as a student with one university department that implemented this anti-plagiarism service. At the seminar where the system was presented to students...

it would seem that he's not particularly tech-savvy.

The same thought did occur to me, especially since the first two responses when you google "Hohepa Te Umuroa" (the real historical figure the novel is based on) are:

1) the Dictionary of NZ Biography page on Te Umuroa, and
2) the...

The people who make Turnitin also offer a "personal" version called WriteCheck. As an experiment,...

Joe, that's astonishing about Turnitin being used as default grading labour!! Cheaper than paying grad students to do it, I guess, although how exactly does it mark the essays, other than "dodgy" or "not dodgy"?

In my experience my grad student tutor in that particular department was a thoroughly decent...

for me it's an incredibly sad story and just feels wrong. I can't imagine how it must have felt to discover this at the time.

i just don't understand why Ihimaera did not bother to attribute.

This is something that is...

Is Ihimaera's new novel — plagiarism questions aside — a good book?

*The author certifies that this is an original work in its entirety.

*Where quotations are made, due acknowledgment is given to the original author and title. The author acknowledges that they have obtained permission for the quotations...

Maybe it's different for journalism, but I can't imagine writing anything – whether it's an academic paper...

When essays were returned there were no comments relating to specific passages, or even a comment on the essay in general, just an overall grade.

That's irredeemably slack. For starters, anyone reading it closely enough to mark it should be able to put down at least a few comments. How...

Having had a look at the particular examples of unattributed quoting, they're textbook cases of plagiarism, exactly the sort of things we tell our students not to do. I can see me using the article for teaching purposes in the next few years.

Yup — got our copy this morning. Excellent detective work on your part, and for all the bitching of the Listener that goes on in these parts, isn't it rather flattering that this story scored the cover?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think I bitch about __the...

In other words, there are ethical reasons not to borrow other people's words, but also artistic ones.

Yeah, this is part of what gets me, the idea that we have lost whatever might otherwise have been written had the author not stolen somebody else's work. Sorry, 'forgotten to attribute'.

Everything...

Since he's taken to rewriting his earlier novels in the light of his later socio-political consciousness and writing skills (Whanau II e.g.), there seems already to be a path forward – he should be re-working this one with the application of those mature writing skills and a good editor. Preferably...

I actually think it's quite a cool thing to do – plays sometimes appear in several different published versions (not just Shakespeare but current stuff), and poets are known to rework their greatest hits now and then. Some writers,...

It's an interesting conundrum isn't it? Although- ironically, given the source of this controversy-I think "historical fiction" probably opens itself up to more freedom to "rewriting", and could maybe even be seen as a necessity if you're that way inclined.

I do agree that there is something powerful...

Oooh and it makes me wonder,
how much of his other works should give credit to others.

The Checkpoint story (streaming, 3m37) mentions earlier concerns about The Matriarch that Jolisa noted...

Also, how peculiar to write that entire article without actually...

Worse, lifts her writing from here and makes it seem like quotes from a conversation – "Gracewood said". In a story about plagiarism.

That's a jolly good point, Sacha. A paper I write for over here has a strict policy about that: it's "Smith says/said" if you talked to Smith...

should I press for a correction to the story?

My vote: yes. The story wrongly implies your co-operation with it.

That's a jolly good point, Sacha. A paper I write for over here has a strict policy about that: it's "Smith says/said" if you talked to Smith (in person or over the phone, which must also be noted) and "Smith writes/wrote" if you just plucked Smith's writings from her blog...

I made their job easier by blogging so articulately and so promptly!

Reckon. It sounded like you had talked with them, Dr Gracewood.

Not so in NZ?

Apparently not. Probably just house style and stretched resources rather than poor intent.

Not crediting blogs reflects the derisive official attitudes our newspapers...

Apparently not. Probably just house style and stretched resources rather than poor intent.

It's still kinda sucky tho- as I said in my above post, it doesn't take much to flag the original source and the carry on. In fact, it should be done even when sourcing interviews from other...

The Gang of Four re-recording was mostly about business, I think. This from Simon Reynolds' review in Slate in 2005:

Yet the motivation for Gang of Four rerecording their songs also has a mundane, pragmatic aspect. "Covering" their own songs is a canny way of honoring and reactivating their...

Not crediting blogs reflects the derisive official attitudes our newspapers seem to have about them. Doesn't stop them being sources when it suits, of course.

Indeed — and the delicious irony is that among the much sneered at bloggers, it's considered rather poor form to fail to not only attribute...

Not to sound like an apologist – because I do think sources should be attributed – but I'm sure universities in general would not hold a piece of fiction to the...

The Gang of Four re-recording was mostly about business, I think. This from Simon Reynolds' review in Slate in 2005:

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. It reminds me of the byzantine contract the guys behind Spinal Tap have- apparently they have to perform or record "in character" every three...

will send the article

For the purposes of review of course.

Not to sound like an apologist – because I do think sources should be attributed – but I'm sure universities in general would not hold a piece of fiction to the same standard as an academic essay/publication

Hum, you may well be right. But any institution that does really shouldn't...

The Crown expects to pay $777 million to leaky home victims in the next two decades, lumbering the country with colossal bills.

universities in general would not hold a piece of fiction to the same standard as an academic essay/publication

However, I imagine the expected accuracy of an historical novel featuring real people is higher than for a general work of fiction.

Lennon always felt that "Help" (the song) was badly recorded, so he's not always the best judge of his own material, either

Oh, he was totally objective about everything, all the time. (Snort.) Even when he asked George Martin to make his voice sound 'like an orange'.

However, I imagine the expected accuracy of an historical novel featuring real people is higher than for a general work of fiction.

Possibly Ihimaera backed himself into a corner by insisting on historical accuracy – witness his close reliance on historical accounts of major historical events, some of which he...

And then there's Kaavya Viswanathan, who borrowed phrases and words from several different sources. She fared less well.

Indeed. There is something almost biblical about the term "pulped", is there not?

I'm not sure that the standard of "not incorporating other people's work without acknowledgement" would be any different whether the work is fiction or non-fiction.

More to the point, if you have written three pages of acknowledgements then you have set your own standard to uphold.

Is Ihimaera's new novel — plagiarism questions aside — a good book?

All three drafts of my review waffled a bit on this point, because it's undeniably a heartfelt and ambitious novel, and the story it seeks to tell is a truly...

I have vented in the direction of the Herald on Sunday.

But Nicholas Reid's review in the SST is pretty much spot on.

Indeed — "they are early 21st-century characters dressed in 19th-century drag" is a criticism that can be levelled at way too many historical novels.

I much prefer where Hillary Mantel drew the line with Wolf Hall: If she...

Dear God. Apart from the fact it was still happening, presumably until WWII people referred to it as the Great War, yes? That really does seem like a terrible failure.

Dear God. Apart from the fact it was still happening, presumably until WWII people referred to it as the Great War, yes?

Everyone except the psychics and the cynics, of course.

Secondly; while there *can* be accidental plaigerism of phrases (and because I am extremely widely read, I dread that possibility) there is NO...

Dear God. Apart from the fact it was still happening, presumably until WWII people referred to it as the Great War, yes?

Everyone except the psychics and the cynics, of course.

I was very fortunate a few years ago to acquire a large book "The First World War- a photographic...

I was very fortunate a few years ago to acquire a large book "The First World War- a photographic history" notably published in 1934

Interesting – I was under the impression the term hadn't come into use at all until WWII had started. Though, as you say, the writing was...

Yet again, Holmes manages to turn a story into something about him.

Yes. That was precisely my response.

And nor should the standard be exactly the same. For example, I don't think that an author should have to give footnotes or citations throughout a piece of work.

Indeed not, Tracy — but I've mentioned Georgette Heyer before. It's easy to dismiss her as a remarkably competent (and popular)...

But it was also a point of pride to her that she just got her history right, to the very best of her considerable ability.

I think this is the key skill of all really good historical novelists – they make you feel like you're there, because they've bothered to...

the occasional Dr. Gracewood would be nice

Damn straight!

Lord knows the pain of getting the degree doesn't reward you with money so just the occasional recognition especially when they are referring to the outcome of your professional expertise ...

Besides very very very rarely that title might get you...

I think this is the key skill of all really good historical novelists – they make you feel like you're there, because they've bothered to try and understand the time period they're writing in.

And they also avoid what I call the undigested (and indigestible) info-dump, which is something else...

- but I'm sure universities in general would not hold a piece of fiction to the same standard as an academic essay/publication. And nor should the standard be exactly the same.

Actually I disagree completely. The person in question is employed in no small part by the University for his...

Actually I disagree completely. The person in question is employed in no small part by the University for his expertise as a novelist.

And I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that it's worse if (for the sake of argument) it was discovered that Emeritus Professor C.K...

And I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that it's worse...

Don't bother; it's not. It's called a novel for a reason.

Stead, love him or loathe him, takes his fiction every bit as seriously as his poetry, critical essays or the two full length books on literary modernism that are the basis of his academic reputation

With you, Craig. I think one of the reasons Mansfield worked so well as a...

It's called a novel for a reason.

Oh, touché!

My first draft of the review — back when I thought the main problem with the book was its failure to follow through on the heaving bosoms (brown and white, male and female) with a proper Georgette Heyer style consummation --...

Stead, love him or loathe him . . .

When you've produced lines like Lucan chanting Lucan while the suicidal blood / Marches true to one commander from the wrists in final flood, it's no longer a case of loving or loathing. Major respect.

There are jolly good reasons to fictionalise your characters as well as their travails.

But there are also some wildly successful novels incorporating historical figures – Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy springs to mind. I thought the way in which she wove in her historical figures – Sassoon, Owens, Robert Graves...

I have never struck a contract that didnt include variants of these clauses:
*The author certifies that this is an original work in its entirety.
*Where quotations are made, due acknowledgment is given to the original author...

But there are also some wildly successful novels incorporating historical figures – Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy springs to mind. I thought the way in which she wove in her historical figures – Sassoon, Owens, Robert Graves – was brilliant.

Yep, I liked those too – and agree that fictionalising real...

But there are also some wildly successful novels incorporating historical figures – Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy springs to mind. I thought the way in which she wove in her historical figures – Sassoon, Owens, Robert Graves – was brilliant.

Indeed — and I was pleasantly surprised to find that I...

But there are also some wildly successful novels incorporating historical figures – Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy springs to mind. I thought the way in which she wove in her historical figures – Sassoon, Owens, Robert Graves – was brilliant.

There's a crucial rule for historical figures, though: make their appearances...

It suddenly occurs that writing historical fiction must be a lot like writing fanfiction

Funny you should say that, Lucy... the analogy did occur to me while reading. Young Hohepa's physical beauty is dwelt on at length (as it were), and what makes it really fanficcy is that some of...

lest the writer risk upsetting the descendants by going overboard with the sexy times.

Mind you, I can't imagine objecting to a portrait of an ancestor of mine that took care to notice how prodigiously physically gifted he was, especially in the trouser department.

I enjoy George MacDonald Fraser's Flashman series all the more for the historical (etc.) annotations/footnotes.

This was the MacDonald Fraser who said he was amused by people who commiserated that being a historical novelist must be such hard work. Not at all — creating from scratch the endless parade of...

Mind you, I can't imagine objecting to a portrait of an ancestor of mine that took care to notice how prodigiously physically gifted he was, especially in the trouser department.

A few years ago there was a heavily (and very obviously) fictionalised biopic of Jeffrey Archer (Jeffrey Archer: The Truth,...

I'll be talking to Maggie Barry on Drive Live (Live Drive?) in a few minutes time.

2) They made Jeffrey being unfeasibly well endowed into a subplot. At one point, he's standing at a urinal and a black man next to him glances down, does a double-take, and says "Respect, man!" Subtle stuff, but from the heart.

The thinking behind this was that you can say...

And are willing to embrace racial stereotyping to do it?

The whole thing was an attempt at satire. While it ran for around 90 minutes, after half an hour it seemed that spoofing someone as preposterous as Archer was a tough call.

'cause nobody will admit to that, see?

(apocrypha as they all are.)

1. Culture on the cover of The Listener, and not in a merely biographical context. Gareth Morgan peers down from the top left banner ("Our sick health system") and I cheer to myself that there is something better than...

Finally had a chance to read the issue in question

Me too, to discover that one of the plagiarised texts is one I used heavily myself producing two Condition-of-England novel essays at Honour's level. For some reason this makes the whole thing feel even shittier to me.

Finally had a chance to read the issue in question ...

Clearly the pod people have replaced the editorial board of the Listener. It goes all the way to the top, people.

Clearly the pod people have replaced the editorial board of the Listener. It goes all the way to the top, people.

Its all true! I wrote a wee letter to the editor of that organ, and the response I received today was signed by the significant other of our host...

Mind you, still waiting for the university to...

I'd like to recommend Rachael King's brand new novel Magpie Hall for a spunky insight into Lyttelton, tattoos and taxidermy at the turn of the last century.

Being a believer in the afterlife, it wouldn't be too lame to say that Michael should be looking down on his children pretty...

But Nicholas Reid's review in the SST is pretty much spot on.

I've wished for a long time that this wasn't the case, but I've found almost everything Witi Ihimaera's put out — ever since his early short stories — to be lamentable tripe. Sounds like The Trowenna Sea won't...

So I reckon Witi should tell those po-faced motherfuckers to fuck themselves. Take a leaf out of Hone Harawira's book!

I've wished for a long time that this wasn't the case, but I've found almost everything Witi Ihimaera's put out — ever since his early short stories — to be lamentable tripe.

I haven't read all of his work, as the cloying piety that pervades The Whale Rider (not so...

Oh, and another POV from Pointless and Absurd:

Yes, let's display our dull ignorance of the specific nature of the medium of writing! Let us assimilate it to other media totally different in process! Let us ignore the generally prevalent standards of an autonomous community of creators in favour of...

Yes, let's display our dull ignorance of the specific nature of the medium of writing! Let us assimilate it to other media totally different in process! Let us ignore the generally prevalent standards of an autonomous community of creators in favour of a particularly stupid yay me-ism!

But those are...

Film-makers borrow and reference, but they are seldom considered to plagiarise.

I am fairly certain that if a director inserted unedited footage from sone else's film into theirs, or a script-writer lifted dialogue verbatim, and didn't credit the original film, then there would be tears before bedtime. It's more difficult...

Why do notions of plagiarism exist in writing but not in visual art or film-making?

Um, I should say they do exist in visual art and film-making; they are merely different in those media, because, surprisingly, concepts express themselves differently in different media.

Pretty much all his points boil down...

But those are interesting points he raises.

Perhaps they are, within that reified and sterile world of art-referring-to-art-referring-to-art. To me it's mostly an elaborate justification for the elevation of the talent-free, and relates to life much as masturbation does to sex. Although Ihimaera's work may be constrained to some degree...

and relates to life much as masturbation does to sex.

So... a lot?

Why authorship is so sacred now — it once had no real meaning.

Really? That's a bit ambitious. Is authorship sacred now? When did it have no real meaning? Are you comparing apples to apples?

Not cut-ups — more like artistic rewrite subbing, making plain what you're doing.

Does anyone do this? Not in a cut-up way, but in the sense of something you'd actually want to read?

Not cut-ups — more like artistic rewrite subbing, making plain what you're doing.

Does the software exist yet? Polly Frost once did a great piece for The New Yorker that's turned up in a couple of anthologies, and is online for subscribers. Turbotome was a guided walkthrough of a word...

I quite like the idea of remixes and mash-ups of written works.

Witi Ihimaera did this with Dear Miss Mansfield, in 1989. A "tribute" to Katherine Mansfield with interesting results.

. . . for example that dreadful Peter Jackson, but there's more to film than that shit.

The ability to rile the terminally pretentious, without even deliberately setting out to do so. One of Jackson's lesser talents, but in itself greater than any that his envious detractors are able to...

To be honest, and this might sound wanky, but the only people's opinions who matter on this subject are those who produce creative work of their own and put it out there. Not the critics.

OK maybe the critics don't matter, but what about the comment that I've heard many...

And what about the plagiarised artist's opinions of the plagiaree? Do they matter? Cos you did say yourself in your blog piece that it pissed you off when someone else nicked your upside-down NZ idea.

Homage to Ian Brackenberry Channell, presumably?

connectors are being blocked.

I quite like the idea of remixes...

To be honest, and this might sound wanky, but the only people's opinions who matter on this subject are those who produce creative work of their own and put it out there. Not the critics.

You're right, it does sound a little wanky. But I do see your point. I...

I quite like the idea of remixes and mash-ups of written works.

Pastiche. We loves it. When done well, it's a beautiful thing.

As I re-read The Trowenna Sea over the last few days, I was thinking that there's definitely a place for a mash-up novel deliberately and explicitly composed...

Could appreciation of this book by one not culturally attuned to the politics at play sway your mother's taste Jolisa?

Sorry, what? Got distracted by your swingin' internal rhyme (play/sway, hey hey hey) and had a bit of trouble parsing that sentence.

You mean, if someone else truly madly loved...

But I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you seem to be. I reckon we'll continue generating fresh content for millennia to come. Ideas are plentiful, and new combinations thereof even more so. Leave them alone, and they will come home, wagging their footnotes...

The ability to rile the terminally pretentious, without even deliberately setting out to do so. One of Jackson's lesser talents, but in itself greater than any that his envious detractors are able to muster.

COMPLETELY OT but do you REALLY have to be terminally pretentious to find his LOTR films...

. . . I find your defensiveness just fucken stupid.

FYI stephen, my post was in response to David Cauchi's pretentious drivel. That said, I couldn't give a rats about your fanboy musings.

FYI stephen, my post was in response to David Cauchi's pretentious drivel. That said, I couldn't give a rats about your fanboy musings.

Oh so it was just a pithy wee taunt, was it, that you didn't actually mean? Wondering why you'd bother...

That said, I couldn't give a rats...

Wondering why you'd bother...

Wonder on, Mr. Miseryguts. One thing you can be certain of, this'll be the last time I'll be bothered to engage with your infantile tosh.

a piece of art (whether it's a piece of writing, a painting, a film, whatever) really belongs to the viewer once the artist puts it out there?

That whatever "meaning" or message the artist originally intended to make is necessarily coloured and re-defined by the person viewing it

And I'd...

To be honest, and this might sound wanky, but the only people's opinions who matter on this subject are those who produce creative work of their own and put it out there. Not the critics.

Oh, bullshit. How about those pesky readers who might not appreciate getting Professor Ihimaera's (or...

Sigh. If only that...

Oh wait. It is.

I thought editors were the unicorns of publishing — legendary beasts that you can only catch if you can rustle up a virgin of unimpeachable piety from God only knows where who's willing to sit around in a fairy glade until her arse turns blue with...

I thought editors were the unicorns of publishing — legendary beasts that you can only catch if you can rustle up a virgin of unimpeachable piety from God only knows where who's willing to sit around in a fairy glade until her arse turns blue with cold? :)

I'm fairly...

Then let's see, there's the intentional element — i.e. what is the art work, and if the art work isn't simply the...

Dish. Take. It's a both or neither situation.

The only way this makes sense to me is if you'd read the opposite of what I wrote. I thought I'd quite clearly opted for both.

Yeah, man. If I wanna paint something that looks exactly like a Goldie, nobody's going to...

(See difference between `quotation' and `plagiarism'; originality is not the only important issue here.)

ETA: and also the art work as an intentional object, see Danto & Brillo...

The only way this makes sense to me is if you'd read the opposite of what I wrote. I thought I'd quite clearly opted for both.

Gee, sorry David, I read your comment as a sarcastic criticism of people for abusing you. I guess you wrote those first three paragraphs...

Pastiche. We loves it. When done well, it's a beautiful thing.

But that implies imitation. I'm think of something more like a cross between sampling and sub-editing — of the original words.

Possibly this is because my idiosyncratic response to reading fiction is often to want to edit it.

What does 'the intentional element ... mean for plagiarism'?

You're raising points, but not making an argument. I suspect you do have a good argument to make, and I'd like...

It's kind of simple, really. This is about taking credit for a skill of writing, when what one has actually demonstrated is the skill of cutting and pasting.

Actually, I'm not sure that it is. Almost anyone who writes historical fiction is going to cut and paste, tweak, and put...

All these cries of FOUL and overly-sentimental descriptions of blood running cold, scalp tingling, "weeping" at the shock horror discovery of oh god say it's not true PLAGIARISM, and so on, are getting a bit overdone.

How about fucked off, angry and I'd rather eat shit that contribute a penny...

Almost anyone who writes historical fiction is going to cut and paste, tweak, and put it into the voice (or thoughts) of a character.

Actually, what Jolisa said on the radio was that (from memory, hope I'm not being misleading) is that she talked to other historical writers and they...

He wrote in response:

Le matin took great pride in showing on their front...

As far as I'm aware, they...

she talked to other historical writers and they said no, what you do is do your reading, and then make sure those texts are off your desk before you start writing, specifically so you don't use the exact same words, but put them in your own.

.. And if you...

But why would anyone believe them? All but a few tradespeople cut corners. They just hope not to get caught.

You think we need a Target episode on historical writers? Hidden cameras in the offices of Jenny Pattrick and Deborah Challinor?

The point, my dear Mr. Clover

And my response, my most darling Craig, is to point out that Ihimaera is a shitty writer, that the historical novel is mostly a worthless (sub-)genre, and to wonder why you would bother considering buying it in the first place.

If my next PAR...

the historical novel is mostly a worthless (sub-)genre

Them's fightin' words, mister.

Calling someone an "arsehole" because they linked to your blog post is beyond ridiculous.

I'm always surprised when people post something on the internet and then discover they don't have absolute control over it. That would be the internet at work.

I mean,

If she hadn't included the original artists' name in the titles, would...

I've long liked to think of the British Isles as The Antipodes.

But, realistically, what part of a tiny planet in a galaxy – somewhere- in this...

Them's fightin' words, mister

Yes, I know. But everyone has their own tastes don't they. Did somebody (upthread) mention Barbara Kingsolver? *choke* *gag* *falls about laughing at own wit* *etc.*