Compliment first — kudos to you and everyone else concerned for a rather useful, reality-based discussion on Nine to Noon this morning.

As for Cactus-gate...I'm sorry, but the following is some chilling affront to 'investigative journalism'?

a. In criminal reporting:

i. Avoid the publication of any information which discloses...

What outrages me is that someone at APN (correctly IMO) considered it necessary to remind folks not only of Court Reporting and Media Ethics 101, but the notion that the NZ Herald is not a judicial body

Quite. Odgers seems to regard them as optional extras.

the trick to getting a response from Murphy is to use the most inflammatory language.

"Blog in inflammatory language shock!" (cue NZH manning the moral barricades)

First Harawira and now this?! ;-)

Editorial could take a more conservative approach to the subject matter and content of the risky or contentious articles. Where editorial identifies an issue or risk in an article the relevant passages could be proactively removed, or rewritten internally,...

I'm rather more concerned about the Herald stable's difficulties with the idea that alleged criminals are entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law — not the pages of a newspaper. (A distinction, need I add, Cathy Odgers might be a little...

Well, on that score, I stand by my belief that it is a matter of when, not if, some...

That you have admitted you haven't actually seen the email and have asked people to send it to you says to me you cannot make this blanket assumption that blogger wrong and evil and needs to once again be "outed" (yawn), Herald right and APN doing what is normal.

I...

Hmmm, that might be true if it covers HR,or even cases where they have taken legal action.
He doesnt quite say there is no cuts to 'defamation' budget

Pot kettle black on all that that with regards the clearness of your scribing as well I must add. At times I have no idea what you are writing about because it is muddled and nonsensical but I trust...

Can I humbly suggest you get over yourself and just participate in a discussion?

That you have admitted you haven't actually seen the email and have asked people to send it to you says to me you cannot make this blanket assumption that blogger wrong and evil and needs to once again be "outed" (yawn), Herald right and APN doing what is normal.

Cactus:...

I ended up at Whailoils site.

I checked it out a couple days ago, now it burns when I pee.

I checked it out a couple days ago, now it burns when I pee.

That's what bestiality gets you, boys and girls. Whales are for eating not for fun.

Oh dear. I really shouldn't have followed up on this one. I ended up at Whailoils site. I need to shower and get changed now. Yuck.

LOL, I deliberately save my shower for after the news, for that reason.

Editorial could take a more conservative approach to the subject matter and content of the risky or contentious articles.

I'm guessing the 'more' in 'more conservative' here refers to 'for risky and contentious articles' rather than 'compared to what we have done before'.

Which does complete the list of completely...

I'm embarassed to admit spreading CK's story around. In my defense, it seemed all too plausible that Australian cost accountants who don't value subbing would take it to the next level.

And hell, it could be plausible. I'm just not convinced by what I've read. So sue me.

No, actually...

Given that Cactus Kate is a lawyer and Tim (nice but dim) is an Editor I tend to believe that Cactus has her facts straight.

Um, anyone? Though I've got to note the little irony that the Kate and...

Um, anyone?

10ft pole etc etc

So sue me.

No, actually. Don't.

Damn you and your watertight get-out clauses.
;-)

Could I suggest that decent journalists and publishers don't take a casual "publish and be damned", kill 'em all and let the lawyers sort it out approach to defamation because it's also a shitty and unethical way to operate? Heavens forfend that I suggest that Tim Murphy isn't...

Because most of it is Boilerplate Journalism training, of the kind you get just after they've shown you you will spend most of your time covering councils and courts – if...

I like the way that Cactus Kate immediately suggests a Conspiracy Theory for why Russell is questioning the quality of her investigative journalism.

I'm still wondering how she busted PAS as a Herald-worshipping cult with Russell as the high priestess. We put so much effort into establishing our cover. :)...

At the end of reading it out he sneered and screwed up the bit of paper he was reading...

Such. a. dick.

And incredibly unwise. Didn't Paul Holmes pull the same crap back in the day, and then not only have to read the original statement again but apologise for his little drama queen hissy fit?

BTW, here's the text of the apology to Sharon Shipton. The really eye-watering money...

Sue, Grabbit and Runne

Craig, you worked at Private Eye!
Respect...

I'm still wondering how she busted PAS as a Herald-worshipping cult with Russell as the high priestess. We put so much effort into establishing our cover. :)

Someone must've infiltrated
our Bohemian Groove :- )

The extracts Cactus Kate has published are utterly unremarkable.

I note that her areas of legal expertise appear to be corporate, tax and trusts.

yeah rattle in the insular little Russell Brown fan club.

Ok, that was funny.

Can I humbly suggest you get over yourself and just participate in a discussion?

She's just being caustic and lippy. Did anyone sign something that said "play nice"?

Are you a middle child, Russell? Be honest...

Perhaps she saw the ad for your AGM in the public notices of the Central Leader?

Someone must've infiltrated
our Bohemian Groove :- )

Screw it, I want an apocalyptic death cult with Many-Angled Elder Ones and Orgies and Virgin Blood drenching the rug or I'm taking my ritual boning knife and going home.

She's just being caustic and lippy. Did anyone sign something that said...

1. Conservative editorial approach

Editorial could take a more conservative approach to the subject matter and content of...

But this is a bit WTF?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10609858

Where editorial identifies an issue or risk in an article the relevant passages could be proactively removed, or rewritten internally, to remove the perceived risk, as an alternative to obtaining legal advice on the risks of publication.

[emphasis added by me]

Does this not simply say: "if you decide not...

I can't find anyone here you've spoken to...and FFS, what emails are you wittering on about?

oh, and who is this 'editorial' you speak of?

I need a new...

Are you a middle child, Russell? Be honest. This is important.

No, the oldest. I'm asserting dominance.

But did you not find it amusing that Ms Odgers jumped in with guns blazing, and then suddenly took to rolling around on the floor complaining about not getting "a fairer hearing"?

Playing...

Does this not simply say: "if you decide not to get legal advice on that risky passage, maybe you shouldn't run with it"?

Is that really so chilling?

Sounds like what I do on a weekly basis — I'll quote unquote "self-censor" my usual potty mouthed and uninhibited approach to...

Hey guys, I was a journo and have today had a bit of a yack to a few scribes at the Herald. There is some concern about the emails. especially this bit

Fair enough, actually. You're not the only one who's looked twice at it.

What someone should have done...

Ahh, my dear wee boy, that would be telling

So. As we have said, on these esteemed pages, many times, people shouldn't "Just Make Shit Up" Because, as you well know, it could get you sued.
According to Tim Murphy...

I've never heard of — let alone written for — any media outlet where every word gets run by in-house legal as a matter of course.

That would be awful. There's a degree of trust that applies there — if you have a story that will likely attract the attention...

He says the document in question is actually the information booklet handed out at a media law training class: "tediously boring guff as usual and as you and a few others have mentioned,...

I can vouch that this person is neither a liar or a corporate lackey. I think this comes close to settling the matter, no?

Perhaps we can go back to bitching The Herald and Herald on Sunday for all the things they should be taken out behind the woodshed for.....

Perhaps she has actually read the whole 66 pages and decided not to back up her conspiracy Theory with actual facts because

Murphy will tell all clones to execute Order 66?

Murphy will tell all clones to execute Order 66?

Damn, perhaps he'd be nicer if we got him a drum of moisturiser and a scented ex-foliating scrub. Throw in a loofah and some bath beads, and journalism as we know it has been saved. That is, until Rupert Murdoch, The...

And I see that Rob Hosking – another scribe of note is also concerned.. so what does that say?

Put two hacks in a room and they couldn't agree on what to order for lunch?

And the lawyers check it to ensure you havent pushed out the boundaries too much. The lawyers ARE conservative.

Clearly, given that they seem to be the authors of the booklet.

And I see that Rob Hosking – another scribe of note is also concerned.. so what does that say?...

- the lawyers hardly ever tinkered with my copy..

They were probably trying hard not to laugh.

I thought all the left were for freedom of speech and defended a fearless fourth estate.. These days its the fifth estate, the blogs who are riding the white chargers of truth.

I'm going to take this opportunity to remind you of your role last year of using your blog...

They were probably trying hard not to laugh.

Or processing their invoices?

Incidentally, Brenda, I greatly appreciated your attack on the implausibility of TV ratings at the SPADA debate.

I thought all the left were for freedom of speech and defended a fearless fourth estate

I increasingly get the idea this document is a sensible, normal and not-overboard response to the possibility of having your ass sued. Talk to me about what's wrong with defamation law, though...

Shit barnes you just dont get it.. when you are doing investigative articles you push the limits..

Which rather says that you are the one that "just dont get it"
Good investigative journalism does not need to "push the limits" Good investigative journalism is getting the facts and backing them...

Incidentally, Brenda, I greatly appreciated your attack on the implausibility of TV ratings at the SPADA debate.

Thanks! Apparently the ratings people defended their place hotly the following morning, but people I spoke to remained unconvinced.

I'm putting a different twist on it for the NDF next week :)

These days its the fifth estate, the blogs who are riding the white chargers of truth.

A disturbing image. And I suspect the vast majority of those "chargers" wouldn't be fit for glue.

These days its the fifth estate, the blogs who are riding the white chargers of truth.

Astride wombats might be a better image!

Astride wombats might be a better image!

Badgers.

...last night Henry read out a BSA finding on Close Up, which I had the misfortune to be watching.

At the end of reading it out he sneered and screwed up the bit of paper he was reading from and tossed it aside and made some comment.

Such. a...

if Catcus is amoebic then be very afraid.. Ascerbic she may be , but she has one of the finest intellects in the blogzone..

These days its the fifth estate, the blogs who are riding the white chargers of truth.

A disturbing image. And I suspect the vast majority of those...

So I heard. I deliberately avoided that session as I would only have got irate and everyone would have said, "There goes that Geoff Lealand again..."

No biting the hand that feeds ... those guys will defend a flawed system to the hilt if it means they get to keep...

Shit barnes you just dont get it.. when you are doing investigative articles you push the limits..

Since you brought up Phil Kitchin — he has the (well-deserved) reputation he does because the one limit he doesn't push, bend or break is getting a story right rather than cutting corners...

I'm sure there's a wide range of reading and perspective on offer, but trying to dismiss Russell as some kind of cult leader who doesn't know what he's talking about because he has the GALL to disagree with you is way too rich for...

Related: Pitchforks hurt!

LOL.

Pitchforks hurt!

Well, I've found my placard for the "Democracy March" this weekend.

No biting the hand that feeds ... those guys will defend a flawed system

So many flaws...assuming that "Presence in a room where a TV set is on" is the same as watching TV. Measuring only the visual signal and ignoring the use of the mute button. The sample size...

But so far as I can tell, the actual text still comes from the media training...

We appear now to have moved on from the bold claim that APN's legal budget has been slashed.

Spoke to a Herald person yesterday. They said they seemed to still be running up a lot of (editorial) legal bills for an enterprise that's supposed to have had its budget slashed.

Don't want to be gushy, but I love the down-to-earth attitude Kitchin has to his work. He's extremely solid.

Indeed — Kitchin would be the first to say what he does isn't rocket science. It's about putting in the hours (or months) to do the basics right. Every time. All...

1. Paul Henry doesn't do Close Up any more. That man was Mike Hosking.

I'm not sure why I conflate those two. I withdraw and apologise.

Astride wombats might be a better image!
Badgers.

The beige badgers of truthiness.

The author is listed as Tammie Hunt, at an apn.com.au email address. (Odgers is being all secret-squirrel about this...

Unless the receptionist put me through to a phantom line, that staff member works in Sydney.

Hmm. That's a pretty big 'unless' to dismiss so easily, no? You see, when you're on the trail of something this big – a memo reminding...

More seasoned...

I was a libel lawyer in a former life. Yes, some people had a reputation for being litigation happy. Yes that was factored into the risk assessment of the story.

But isn't that basically what the text says?

There are categories of people who are more inclined to sue...

you're having your brain sucked out by an anal probe and the reptilian shapeshifters have won...

But why are they coming all this way just to shove things up Kate's arse? Do they know something about the location of her brain we mere mortals don't? Why doesn't an evil Ocker...

Related: Pitchforks hurt!

Dude, come on, we did lick it better afterwards.

Craig I interpreted that point as such people being afforded a higher level of ethical and legal protection than everyone else.

I think all journalists should be careful about defaming people, regardless of...

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6572/colinsays.jpg

No I can't see a plot either Russell. I just think the way it's worded is unfortunate.

Fair enough. I'm less bothered, but it's clearly a point on which reasonable people might disagree.

disbarment proceedings, or charges of facilitating tax evasion or fraud on behalf of one of her clients

Not sure they have those in Hong Kong, unless you forget to make the regular payments to General X?

Having truth on your side doesn't necessarily mean a good story will get published. Especially when your employer thinks that the subject of your story is litigation happy and has deeper pockets than they do. Which is a shame.

Like Lyndon up-thread, you don't want to get me started on...

'people who are more inclined to sue if they are the subject of adverse publication'.
I've never seen that sort of thing given to journalists before. Not even in my days on provincial newspapers.

I've heard of them and I'm not a journo. Elton John, Mohammed Fayed, that sort of...

Craig I think we're broadly in agreement. (I've always liked Private Eye's pet name for Carter Ruck btw). Virtually every Friday when I worked in the UK, a fax from Schillings would roll out at 5.30pm, warning all UK publications...

An interesting tangent is how this sort of bullying contributes to the oligarchisation (I think I just made up a word) of a few powerful media organisations to the detriment of smaller independent companies, but that's a rant for another day.

Of course, one of the more delicious ironies of...

The company I worked for had in-house legal so could make a call immediately without any discernable effect on budgets. The cost of getting external advice on these faxes would very quickly make huge holes in the viability of smaller outfits.

The one time I've actually been sued (by Telecom!)...

Dude, come on, we did lick it better afterwards.

The pitchfork? I'm sure it appreciated that.

if Catcus is amoebic then be very afraid.. Ascerbic she may be , but she has one of the finest intellects in the blogzone

In that case I feel that at this late stage of the year it would be appropriate to nominate CK for the "Best Use of a...

you don't want to get me started on what's wrong with defamation law and (IMHO, of course) vexatious litigants who use the courts to try and bully their critics into S-ingTFU

No, wouldn't want to get Craig started at any time. But would you consider talking about possible new approaches?...

No, wouldn't want to get Craig started at any time. But would you consider talking about possible new approaches?

Indeed — and after a quick skim though both Price and Frank's posts, they both make good points, and their alternatives aren't free of fish-hook but worth serious consideration.

And as...

After all, isn't truth still about the only complete defence against libel out there?

From memory, malice can trump truth but there's a fairly high bar to jump (on behalf of the plaintiff) to prove that.

Truth though is, as noted, not just (usually) effective legal defence, its also a...

the Ability To Look Oneself In The Mirror Act.

Amazingly, Michael Laws wasn't on the select committee for that one.

a list of types of people who are most likely to sue? .

...prolly be the same names as on hones raping muthafuckas list

Spoke to a Herald person yesterday.

Great! If it's anything like their writing, it could be misconstrued. ;)

Mr David Cohen at the NBR writes in his column this is not a blog post about the Hong Kong-based blogress and finds Mr Russell Brown to be "surprisingly miffed"

I'm not at all surprised that Russell got ever so slightly (but most graciously) "miffed" at being told that he...

i'm with colin on this one...

Glad I looked, thought you meant Colin the Brown household cat for a minute there. I have fond memories of how accommodating that cat is :)

if Catcus is amoebic then be very afraid.. Ascerbic she may be , but she has one of the finest intellects in the blogzone

In that case I feel that at this late stage of the year it would be appropriate to nominate CK for the "Best Use of a...

Mr David Cohen at the NBR writes in his column this is not a blog post

Phil Lyth: I've really got to thank you for the gift that keeps on giving. In the comments we not only get Odgers in full-on victim mode (poor darling, abused by the eeevil PA...

brave speakers of... whatever.

truthiness?

Meanwhile CK lashes out at Russell's "ego".

I can't even be bothered reading it. Not for the first time, I'm reminding myself that the best way to deal with these people is to decline to engage with them.

This is pretty much a re-run of Odgers' embarrassing and spiteful behaviour...

Not for the first time, I'm reminding myself that the best way to deal with these people is to decline to engage with them.

I hate to point out the obvious, but you started it :-)

I hate to point out the obvious, but you started it :-)

Sometimes, however, it's important to call people on their bullshit.

Sometimes, however, it's important to call people on their bullshit.

It can be hard to do that whilst simultaneously declining to engage with them.

It can be hard to do that whilst simultaneously declining to engage with them.

When I started looking at it, I actually thought she might be on to something. I really just tried to appraise what she had, which turned out to be very little. Oh well.

(And I did...

I find it interesting that you outed her real identity. Given that her blog is studiously anonymous, it rankled with me a little bit.

Sigh ... don't read any intent into it, please. It's very widely known who she is, and she talks about having been a Fairfax columnist in...

A lot of people here know Deborah's surname, but when it was mentioned by mistake by Paul Williams you quickly removed it – I think if she wanted *everybody* to know who she was then she would have put it on...

Please, for goodness sake, accept my word that I was not trying to stitch up Cactus Kate by using her actual, widely-known name.

I have obviously been critical of her writing, but...

Anyway, if she asks, I'll happily remove her name.

I have obviously...

Anyway, if she asks, I'll happily remove her name.

Kate happily used her own name in her response to Russell, David Cohen and me in a comment she left on Cohen's not-a-blog on all this yesterday.

I genuinely do believe that a number of the persistent problems associated with blogging would be resolved if more people used...

I wonder if there's not a case to be made for public disclosing the names of attack bloggers...

I don't think there is, no. Plus figuring out who gets to decide what an attack blogger is might be problematic.

There's absolutely a case for it if there's a significant...

There's absolutely a case for it if there's a significant conflict of interest involved, or a potential defamation.

So like if she was formerly employed by a company that rivals the target of her ill judged and intemperate commentary?

When I started looking at it, I actually thought she might be on to something. I really just tried to appraise what she had, which turned out to be very little. Oh well.

That's how I took it. But in blogging about it, you engaged with it.

(And I did...

Paul, up-thread I did invite comment on two possible new approachs to defamation. Craig responded: would you care to?

Giovanni, for the record, Farrar has blogged her name since 2005. I always took...

good on her for blogging it and FWIW i too think blogging is the last refuge of the free press.

say for arguments sake, there were a...

Just to seize on one of your points though, I don't think anyone, esp a politician, should be outed for their sexuality by the media (unless they act hypocritically in their public life – in which case there's a public interest justification).

This is New...

Up to a point, but let me retort. On-line, I always use my real name, because I'm a big believer in the notion that if you don't have the testicular (or ovarian) fortitude to spit in someone's face you shouldn't be able to piss on them while hiding behind...

On-line, I always use my real name

What Craig said

(That bit, that is. Not necessarily the other bits he has ever said.)

perhaps Russell you could counterfactualise the scenario if you got the 'smoking gun' email Cactus Kate got. What would you have done ?

Read it properly, for a start.

I might have given it a mention wondering what someone had done to prompt general a tune-up on journalism standards from...

My family would be so shamed if they knew i dwelled in the gutter when they expected so much from me, but with that comes the abiity to do and say things beyond the powers of your average citizen with either little or great responsibility.

I'm thinking more of the...

And it's still my belief that it's a matter of when, not if, one of his resident trolls lands him in very serious shit indeed.

Isn't DPF and/or Kiwi Blargh being investigated for contempt of court? I'd call that much, much bigger shit than anything his rabid trolls might land...

Isn't DPF and/or Kiwi Blargh being investigated for contempt of court? I'd call that much, much bigger shit than anything his rabid trolls might land him in with defamation, TBH, but that is just me.

I believe the Solicitor General dropped the investigation into possible contempt charges over his coverage...

And as for Lange – he was the one who persisted with the case!

Sure, but who really won out of that case? Even ACP (the publisher of North and South) could have found much better uses for the considerable amounts they shelled out in legal costs.

Towards the end,...

Craig, you were the one who slapped me for giving the wrong gift when I linked to Cohen

Phil: I was paying you a compliment for pointing us all towards a rich vein of unintentional comedy (not David's measured and sensible initial post, but the whirling vortex of self-created drama...

Do I think CK was trying? Yes
Do I think CK was trying to make a reasoned point? Come on.

Then I must learn to recognise a north-of-the-Bridge compliment.

FYI: Make me laugh, and I'm your bitch forever.

Oh, sorry for not making my point clearly enough. I'm not arguing media outlets should vigorously defend themselves and their journalists against defamation and contempt charges; but as you so nicely pointed out, no sane editor or writer would invite a writ either. Ms. Odgers may have some weird...

Are you missing a 'not'? Perhaps

I'm not arguing media outlets should NOT vigorously defend themselves and their journalists

is your close buddy and political soul-mate Bill ('I'm not going to let the media destroy my family') English ghosting your posts now?

Surely that would be C/T, but not pro-bono. So would the troll-farm expect Cathy to release the invoices C/T have billed for writing her posts?

a telephone number-like legal bill is some indicator of quality

Quality of income, yes.

Are you missing a 'not'? Perhaps

And you win the chocolate fish for detecting the cunning "trivial typing error" I deliberately included to make sure someone was paying attention. Well caught, Sir.

..provide the site owner with verifiable contact details like everyone who writes a letter for publication to a newspaper or magazine.

Because that helps get a better quality of comment? Is it just me who thinks the majority of letters written to NZ national newspapers are from diagnosed mental patients,...

Is it just me who thinks the majority of letters written to NZ national newspapers are from diagnosed mental patients

As a very occasional Letter to the Editor writer, I do think you have to be a little crazy. I guess LtotheE writers are souls who haven't yet discovered the...

My letter was on two of my...

If other media organisations have been pulling back from risky stories for financial reasons, that's a story, but it would help if she could name a name or provide some sort of evidence for what she was saying.

Instead, she repeatedly said...

There are categories of people who are more inclined to sue if they are the subject of adverse publications, so particular care should be taken in reporting allegations of misconduct against lawyers, doctors, judges, other...

And then she said "I think Tim's been left out of the loop on this one," explaining Murphy's apparent lack of concern at the alleged scandal.

She also asserted that she's been editors elsewhere in APN that their "legal budgets" have been slashed, if not totally eliminated. I would have...