On 2nd thoughts, I still wouldn't be able to watch him.

A quick look at some 6pm news stories from the last couple of days: A great story last night (watch it here if you haven't already)) on a couple of small-town dairies happily selling vital ingredients for making P ? and in at least one case, doing so knowingly

There?

There are a few comments re: the TVNZ's "p-ingredient-shock-expose" over in this thread

Yeah, I've just seen that and commented there. I disagree with a few of the punters who are trying to play it down. I think it was a bloody good sting – the dairy owner who clearly?

Now, I've watched a lot of television news over the past four years (for professional reasons, y'know), I totally agree with?

I think we should call their bluff

Umm, sorry. Back on track.

As for what's actually shown on the news.?

Just say "we put this question to the Minister, and s/he declined to answer". Do that ten times and they might start being more forthcoming when the public thinks they never answer anything :)

I think you maybe onto something there... genius. I think it would work especially well in?

I think you maybe onto something there... genius. I think it would work especially well in an election year, no?

We could even have someone dissect their evasion. "Rather than answer the question, the spokesperson brought up an irrelevant topic"

I'm one of those freaky people who think the whole planet needs saving, not just my own back yard.

...And if they end up going to China, well so be it. We should no more be trying to undercut China in environmental terms than we should?

Fuck 'em.

I agree. And having dug some more into it, there's an economic case.

A few years ago Comalco threw another tanty as part of its "negotiations" with meridian for electricity supply. As part of that, it produced a report which estimated the benefits of the smelter at NZ$121?

Just say "we put this question to the Minister, and s/he declined to answer".

We could even have someone dissect their evasion. "Rather than answer the question, the spokesperson brought up an irrelevant topic"

And after those short messages, time that would have been wasted watching the interviewee evade the?

I think it was a bloody good sting – the dairy owner who clearly knew what was going on, what he was providing, and for what purpose.

Maybe. Or maybe the reporters wound him up a bit and edited it out. And I fail to see what the fact that?

To me, an interesting story would be why a respectable NZ journalist considers that such activity is "unsurprising" and writes of it with no tone of condemnation.

Or why they seem to think that retailers should engage in widespread surveillance of people's purchasing habits on behalf of the police.

I?

The EU is considering a carbon tariff on imports for instance. So if?

So what does the government promise to do – tax a world leading carbon efficient, hydro powered smelter at Tiwai and minimise the fuel costs for Aucklanders whilst building more roads. Nimbyistic, stupid, populist policies, that deny the cause of global warming.

I'm not sure where Tiwai will end up?

And Rio Tinto's special pleading is even more?

We need more local generation a wee chat about windfarms on the West Coast of Auckland & Banks Peninsula etc.

Does China have the same?

Vast amounts of coverage of the tragedy in Myanmar (including hidden camera work across the border from TV3's Mike McRoberts)

Or so it would seem.

Whilst McRoberts did get into Myanmar in the following days, 3news' first lead story on the tradgedy was simply an Aljazeera story from the previous?

It's just a shame Driver feels obliged to offer some deeper justification for his naked news stunt, suggesting it is some sort of ironic comment on the woeful and debased nature of the modern commercial news bulletin..

Indeed. Driver should follow the example of Cate Brett herself, who doesn't even?

The real p story is going on with the killa bees in sth aux. It's a cracker of a story complete with hiphop soundtrack.

A good looking, street smart, tough?

Does China have the same need for aluminium as it does for steel? If so this is a hollow threat.

Yes China does, but the threat is not hollow.

Bauxite is mined in Aussie, shipped to Tiwai, smelted and then aluminium shipped to China or wherever. Take Tiwai out?

Maybe. Or maybe the reporters wound him up a bit and edited it out. And I fail to see what the fact that perfectly legal household substances are available in normal shops is an issue.

You really believe this? No doubt some editing went on, but the?

While clearly, isopropyl Alcohol has legitimate uses (I use it myself)..... the comments being made by the dairy owner made it obvious he knew to what purpose it was being used, and he was willing to offer a bulk discount.

Not illegal, sure, but?

I?

Be clear we are talking about emmissions from the processing of bauxite to aluminium, not the electricty production which in this case does not emit carbon.

Well, we have to pay for the emissions from coal and gas fired stations. So the renewables used by Tiwai could substitute this cost.?

Because, if I recall correctly, they do a lot of promos and sponsorship with The Switched On Gardener and even had a competition to win a hydroponic wardrobe.

Or was?

It is very easy to sit far away and talk blithely of national interest and closure of major employers when you don't have to deal with the consequences* on a human scale, day to day.

Agreed. But since when has that stopped large corps. doing just that. Look at what?

Damien, how do you reconcile this staunch support of the "war on (non-corporate-marketed) drugs" with your old job at bFM?

You don't draw a distinction between someone making methamphetamine for supply, and someone growing a couple of plants in their wardrobe? I do, and I'm pretty sure others here do?

@Damien – So have I got it right, Moon moved to China for the environment?

Be clear we are talking about emmissions from the processing of bauxite to aluminium, not the electricty production which in this case does not emit carbon.

Yes. But Comalco has a bottom line to keep them in the country, and that's really balanced by negotiating for dirt cheap electricity, which?

Bluff would die as a town

Bluff died for me when the Paua Shell House was dismantled.

I just hope the next Einstein of this century/millenium breaksthrough soon with a free energy?

Technology got us into this mess not taxation and legislation and it's the only thing that can get us out and off planet.

This is the George Bush theory of fixing climate change.

Lots of technology got us into this mess, what we need is more technology, that'll fix it!?

I must take issue with the important issue you raise:

I don?t agree that Lisa Lewis has a bad boob job at all. And she seems to be quite proud of it too; good on her.

And is trying to restrict the availability of common household products a good way to do this? Especially as I suspect actual drug makers know how to get?

BTW, I think my comment was a bit snarly. It wasn't meant to be – bit it isn't often that we get someone from national media defending their social authoritarian agenda in a public forum.

Oh really ...

I think I can vouch for the fact that Damian doesn't have?

Technology got us into this mess not taxation and legislation and it's the only thing that can get us out and off planet.

This is the George Bush theory of fixing climate change.

Not only George. Its what the entire western consumerist ideology is built on. Buy now, pay later?

Fuck 'em.

I forwarded a link to a cousin of mine who is unlikely to be "redeployed through our global network" by Tio Pepe if Tiwai is closed down. The (typically laconic) response: "Are you Dork-landers always a pack of c**ts?"

He then went on to note that the principle?

Don't make this a JAFA vs Southlander thing, because it's not. You're launching a fallacious argument here buddy, by lumping everyone in Auckland in with my views, and then me in with a fictitious view of every Aucklander:

a) Not every Aucklander wants to shut down Tiwai. Probably not?

If that analysis agrees that RT are correct and should shut down, what then?

Don't they have dams in China too?

No, not so much.

And as Idiot points out, if we could use the dam power for our own electricity, we could effectively stop using coal (with some infrastructural changes along the way of course).

Transmission loss of about 7% means we can't?

Don't make this a JAFA vs Southlander thing, because it's not. You're launching a fallacious argument here buddy

I agree with you, up to a point Damien. But do try and keep in mind that the next time you say "fuck 'em", them includes one or two people whose livelihoods?

Don't they have dams in China too?

No, not so much.

Are you sure?
Only the biggest one in the world

I suggest the Chinese will not see sense or suddenly engage in a group hug

And then there is this.

Our bus trip from Hong Kong to Guangzhou last month had to go through a compulsory emissions check station on the way through. These seem to be dotted around the?

The manufacture of aluminium at Tiwai Point is inherently clean and green

From wikipedia:

The process also emits large amounts of greenhouse gases, though the smelter is hailed as being amongst the Top 5% of all aluminium smelters worldwide in terms of limiting its emissions.[5]

It's, y'know, still a smelter.?

Bluff would die as a town, shops shutting down, schools downsizing etc etc.

Only if we do nothing about it. As I pointed out, we could easily pay for a regional development agency to do something about that, just like we did for the West Coast when Timberlands was banned?

It's, y'know, still a smelter. It still produces greenhouse gases and a pile of toxic waste. Just because it has a green power source doesn't make it green.

We will still need aluminium, if it is not smelted here it will be smelted somewhere in those 95% of smelters that?

We will still need aluminium, if it is not smelted here it will be smelted somewhere in those 95% of smelters that are worse and most likely by powered by thermal generation.

That's great if the world all holds hands and sings "we are the world". Or if China wants?

To combat AGW New Zealand will place taxation on aluminium produced with low carbon emmissions at Tiwai Point, whilst exempting from taxation aluminium produced by high carbon emitting smelters anywhereelse in the world.

That's great if the world all holds hands and sings "we are the world". Or if China wants to make me the boss of "things China can and can't do". New Zealand is responsible for New Zealand, we can't control what other countries do.

No shit.

And your argument?

I meant that the broadcast and print media in NZ does, and that the "dairies selling drug precursors" story is a clear example of this.

TV1 basically found a dairy owner/manager/lad behind the counter who?

Eco-City developments need to be brown-field, reshaping existing urban spaces not destroying vital natural habitat.

The other smelters of the world are less carbon efficient than Tiwai Point – opening one in China will mean more AGW.

Only if one that opens in China follows that path. There's nothing inherent in the smelter that makes it more or less polluting, it was just designed that?

But the accompanying tone of ?We have just done the country a favour? wound me up a little.

And I fail to see why we should adopt a policy of "New Zealand will take on pollution for the rest of the world because we're slightly better at it." Not in my backyard thanks very much.

Because your backyard is on the planet we should be trying to save.?

To combat AGW New Zealand will place taxation on aluminium produced with low carbon emmissions at Tiwai Point, whilst exempting from taxation aluminium produced by high carbon emitting smelters anywhereelse in the world.

You're right, it makes no sense. We should clearly be imposing a border carbon tax on imports?

You're right, it makes no sense. We should clearly be imposing a border carbon tax on imports from polluter nations.

As the European Union, led by France, is considering.

We should clearly be imposing a border carbon tax on imports from polluter nations.

We could be placing a consumption tax on carbon released by a product. It could be run in the same way as GST and apply to all products foreign or domestic consumed in NZ.

Not so?

These people have all the solvents you want in up to 209l containers. I'm sure they'd ask what one wanted it for, but a quick google reveals a helpful site explaining the (legitimate) purpose for all the main solvents.

Or, if you prefer?

Because your backyard is on the planet we should be trying to save.

I'm thinking globally, acting locally. If a bunch of Chinese got together and did the same thing, there'd be one less aluminium smelter, and one less Huntly power station.

That reserve will make a nice reef, i?

What's best about the coal-fired Chinese smelter, is that hopefully we can be the ones to also supply them the coal for it!

I've been sitting on that idea for days.... too chicken to suggest it here. Although I managed to rile up a dinner party last week.

But yeah,?

I'd never suggest that of course.

I'm thinking globally, acting locally. If a bunch of Chinese got together and did the same thing, there'd be one less aluminium smelter, and one less Huntly power station.

Or maybe you are making no sacrifices and blaming AGW on Chinese indifference, it so hard to tell.

Your argument is?

Don't know if anyone noticed, in the rail announcement this week, that one of the upgrades being planned is the West Coast to Lyttleton link, so it can take heavier loads of coal.

You're right, it makes no sense. We should clearly be imposing a border carbon tax on imports from polluter nations.

As the European Union, led by France, is considering.

Oh, you mean an excuse to bring back __tarrifs __to protect local producers? Who's going to decide the formula* to decide who?

Actually my argument is more like – efficient smelters built in places where they can utilise close by green power sources are the best possible way to minimise AGW from aluminium production.

No the best way to minimise the effects of aluminium production is to demand less aluminium in the?

Eco-City developments need to be brown-field, reshaping existing urban spaces not destroying vital natural habitat.

At the rate at which a city like Shanghai is growing that habitat you talk of would have been consumed within a year or two anyway. Isn't it better that it, and the other two?

..its got sun, wind, water, mountains and lots of flatland that isnt really a natural habitat for anything worth saving. Could easily put a few million people up there and plan to survive a nuclear winter even.

Nick: I think the EU will make up their own mind. But it gives us a very strong incentive to keep them happy with our environmental policy,?

(And if those farmers had any brains at all, they'd be lining up to pay for their carbon precisely to avoid that outcome)

God yes. I cannot fathom the disdain the FF leadership seem to have for the beliefs of their customers. To them their client base are a bunch?

Leaving Naked News (I should point out that at bFM we've been reading our news naked for years) and the technical problems with Driver's show aside:

At least Driver and Bomber have given it a good whack and I watch it because I can't remember the last?

No the best way to minimise the effects of aluminium production is to demand less aluminium in the market which will lead to less smelters producing it.

Yes, exactly. And the way to do this is to tax consumption. Which we can do, because we have complete control of taxation?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4549806a10.html

Yes, exactly. And the way to do this is to tax consumption. Which we can do, because we have complete control of taxation in the New Zealand consumer market. This is the only thing the NZ government controls, but we avoid using this control to help save the planet.

That's?

Prices have doubled over the past five years, whilst supply has increased less so over the same period. The market is demand driven.

Plus there is the marginal advantage in carbon efficiency Tiwai has over other smelters, which I still do think is important enough to make Tiwai one?