Cracker: Get it Off
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i thought of beyer before i typed. i didn't include her, because as you point out, she was well open about her past before she entered politics.
i was thinking more of say, julia guillard being outed.
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Does she count as a women in this discussion?
Oh, FFS, should there be any debate? Of course she's a woman ...
Of course, reading again, I think the emphasis of Che's question was on the 'outed' part - which Georgina Beyer certainly wasn't - and I should have read a little closer. And been more careful with terminology.
But still, I do think it's interesting that a female MP has been open about the stripping and prostitution in her past before male MPs have been open about being on the other side of the deal.
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I really don't have a particular issue with strip clubs, even if I do think they are tacky. But I think there's a continuum here, from raunchy clothes, to dancing at a strip club, to lap dancing, to close contact lap dancing (or whatever), to going out to a back room for a 'special' massage, through to ... well, you get the point.
a continuum? I think that is taking it too far. It does seem a lot like worrying about how short another women's skirt is. I also don't agree that all women who have ever been to a strip club are being peer pressured into it, or are only there for research purposes for that matter!
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I like the idea of just being able to wear what I damn well want - that's why I'm wearing my MaryJane-style purple Docs today. But it seems odd when "I will wear what I damned well want" turns out to be "and that will be shoes that hurt, skirts so short that you can see whatever I am wearing, or not wearing, underneath, crop tops, and pouty red lips," all on a 16 year old girl. There's an odd undercurrent there, of turning girls into sex objects. And I wodner if they are even aware of what's going on.
Some of them are. I enjoy the occasional times I still go and pick my son up from Western Springs. There is no uniform, so everyone dresses as their favourite youth cult. There are a few Paris Hilton wannabes (and it looks dodgy), but a hell of a lot more goths, alt-girls, sporty types, etc. I'm finding the trend towards generalisations -- or maybe fitting everything in a particular frame -- in this thread a bit frustrating.
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"But to back track a bit, someone (Stephen Judd?) made a comment about false consciousness."
Yeah, that was me. And it was a muddled little blurt, so let me clarify that I wasn't saying that your empowered/ironic/old-school stripper is suffering from false consciousness. I was just noting a similarity between a certain kind of feminist take and the Marxist one. The working classes are always letting us down.
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Most of the little girls I see in dodgy t-shirts don't have a choice - that's all they've to wear.
Rather than a continuum of clothing to stripping.
I see it from say modelling to stripping & beyond. Kylie Bax & Rachel Hunter for example, once models then strippers.
That maybe feeling/dressing a certain way (once you have a choice) maybe for your own pleasure but modelling etc is for others. -
That maybe feeling/dressing a certain way (once you have a choice) maybe for your own pleasure but modelling etc is for others.
One of the grimmer evenings I've had (much more so than Mermaids, oddly enough) was a modelling talent quest in the 1990s sponsored by a computer company (on the basis that it was "creative" or something). Oh god. It was a parade of shivering too-young teenage girls, most of them too thin and one or two clearly with eating disorders.
The model agency didn't seem to think anything was unusual, but us IT types were appalled by the end of the evening. To quote the head of the computer company: "We are never getting involved with anything like this again."
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I also don't agree that all women who have ever been to a strip club are being peer pressured into it, or are only there for research purposes for that matter!
Neither do I. In fact I tried very hard to avoid generalisations like that. My big issue is what constitutes consent.
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Right. I've just come back from filming and found a roaring thread. Good stuff. If I may make a few comments on what's gone on:
Most guys I know (pardon my use of cliche) do not want to have sex with boy-thin chicks. Curveacious (sp?) women are just fine, thank you.
Why is it more acceptable to want to have sex with one body type or another? Am I somehow a better person because I enjoy having sex with "fat chicks"? I think not. So therefore the fact that I may or may not really really like having sex with models shouldn't count against me either, should it?
True, but what you're describing impacts nearly as much on male TV journalists (although, oddly, has never been the case on American television). Especially in presenting roles, television is the domain of the relatively attractive. Which is why almost everyone with a major onscreen role becomes appearance-obsessed
I tell you what it is Russell, from personal experience, the camera definitely magnifies any imperfections you might have. So if you're slightly image-conscious to start with, then every bad camera angle showing your double chin, every wide shot showing your thinning pate, every poorly-placed light turning you pasty; is enough to have you running for the gym/sunbed/xenical/tooth bleacher and what have you. So the longer you stay on telly, the weirder, browner, thinner you start looking in real life...
(this mostly applies to presenters, rather than reporters)
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What rankles with me is the idea that it is men who have done this.
well yes. when you look at female genital mutilation, the ones doing the mutilating are in fact women. and the foot binding of females in china was also done by women. and the one pulling the whalebone stays tighter in victorian england would be another woman. i guess an exception would be breast mutilations - oops sorry, enhancements - done mostly by men cos there aren't as many female plastic surgeons around.
it would be easy to conclude that women are the greatest abusers of other women. but look deeper, and you will find that the predominant reasons why women do these things is because they genuinely believe that they or their daughters would have no prospects of a partner (and hence a family) if they didn't.
now where would they get that idea from?
what amazes me most though, is that societies where these kinds of mutilations are rife defend these practices vehmently. it's bizarre. outsiders looking in can see them for the horrible abuses they are, but the insiders can't.
Choice. It's choice.
again, i'd have to say, well yes. this would be the argument i use to argue that women should be able to cover their faces if they want to. which i still pretty much stand by.
however, a friend of mine who used to teach in women's studies put "choice" into perspective. she related "choice" to the practice of suttee (ie burning widows on the funeral pyres of their husbands, a charming practice which is part of india's past). she said that women often chose to burn themselves, they went quite willingly to their deaths in many cases. she asked me if we should accept that as a valid choice.
if a working woman chooses to spend her lunchtime cleaning the house, and generally runs around while her partner does bugger all when he gets home, then that is also her choice. she's free to leave or to stop doing it. why worry about it?
at some point, you have to make a judgement about which choices are healthy and which ones aren't. it's never an easy judgement to make, the boundaries are rarely clear. and i would agree with deborah that societal pressure really hampers choice quite a bit.
i would like to point out that i'm not trying to make parallels between mutilation of the female body and strippers/sexualisation of young girls/images of women in music videos & advertising etc. i know there's a vast difference in terms of the level of exploitation and pain. however, that doesn't mean there's no exploitation happening in terms of the latter.
i don't have any particular solutions to offer - i'm not interested in forcing women to cover up. i'd go and live in saudi arabia if i was into that kind of thing. but at the least, i would like to think that we could create the space for women to express their unhappiness with sexual images & exploitation without having to take the kind of flak they do currently (not here on PAS, of course!).
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From "Capital Punishment"
In Wellington there is at least...one reporter that I would never touch because I would feel as though I’d slept with all my best friends as a result, and that’s just too weird."
My commiserations Mr Christie.
:-)
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My commiserations Mr Christie.
:) Well, to be honest, the original copy had "one political reporter" but the subs removed it, clearly thinking it would be too obvious.
Having said that, I couldn't think off too many political reporters down here who would read that and not think it was referring to them, with a smug smile on their face. They're a breed unto themselves.
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at some point, you have to make a judgement about which choices are healthy and which ones aren't. it's never an easy judgement to make, the boundaries are rarely clear. and i would agree with deborah that societal pressure really hampers choice quite a bit
yes, yes and yes. And I would concur with Deborah about consent. Is all choice a good thing? Does consent always signify understanding? Does something being legal make it right? Loving this discourse, generalisations and all.
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Anjum
I like you look into the body politic.
Most women I know who have had plastic surgery have had breast reductions.
Two exceptions: One sales rep used to have surgery at least once a year. I think it's actually how she kept her job as long as she did- she was in her 50/60s. The other is a friend of a friend (3 degrees of seperation in CHCH) and works in the industry, similarly the new boobs which she'll flash in a flash are an investment.
I suffer from that bloke issue - I seriously have to have a double take at any reflection or photo before i see myself.
My self image has a full head of hair, one chin, a six pack, no glasses.
They (I) will not grow old ... or age weary them (me) ... if I deny deny deny. -
I relate, Michael. I often think I have the opposite of anorexia.
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Wasn't it Roseanne Barr who said " I think I'm anorexic, every time I look in the mirror I see a fat chick."
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I tell you what it is Russell, from personal experience, the camera definitely magnifies any imperfections you might have.
Of course. I try not to see myself on screen and think "where's the guy's teeth?" ...
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Why is it more acceptable to want to have sex with one body type or another? Am I somehow a better person because I enjoy having sex with "fat chicks"? I think not. So therefore the fact that I may or may not really really like having sex with models shouldn't count against me either, should it?
Well possibly yes, actually. I guess I am guilty of being judgemental. I think if you want to have sex with stick-thin 18-20 y.o. models who shave their pubic hair off so they can look even younger then I am going to think less of you. (But if they're neatly trimmed models with an appropriate BMI then by all means go for it).
Which is weird because while driving down the Southern Motorway this evening and thinking about this thread I suddenly thought how odd it was that we were being so judgemental about strippers (they're exploited, or trapped in a power deficit) when ....
... there are at least two people known here on PAS (I won't say more lest I identify them) that I know WERE strippers in previous lives. Obviously neither has chosen to contribute to this thread. And why should they?
So I'd decided to try and be less judgemental (and came up with an allegory/metaphor about dwarf tossing, which I can't articulate properly so I've dropped it) and yet as soon as I get home and log on I decide Damian's comment above is BS.
Human nature, go figure ...
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I don't know that anyone is judging people who choose to strip off their clothes for a living, IO. Do you know what I find interesting? And this is my perception only........That 40 years ago, women who worked in strip clubs possibly wore more makeup than your average woman. And they took their clothes off. On the surface, ie not going deeper into the horrid gender politics of that time, that was what you got when you went into a strip club. Nowadays however, the ante has been upped considerably. Surgery may be taken as an option if one's boobs are not big enough, or one's labia not puffy enough. For who, we might ask? For the women? Or so that they get more money from the punters, most of whom are men? Go to the White House sometime. It's not sleazy, it's very "classy" in a brash sort of way. But stand there for 10 minutes watching the pole dancing, surgically enhanced, barbie look-a-likes, and tell me that you feel completely comfortable with what you see around you. Women make money the only way they are able to. In general, in this society, where appearance is valued, often above all else, that means making choices. You're working in an area where your tits and clit make you dosh. Good for you.You're not exploited as such, because no one's got you over a barrel (so to speak) demanding that you pay them most of what you earn. Good for you. But what choices are left to you when all around you breasts are getting bigger and labia are getting puffier, and what the gods gave you may not make the grade, and you're 20 years old, and your mother threw you out of home? I'm not saying that that's the case for all "sex workers" but I know a disproportionate amount of women for whom that is or was the case.
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And then again, I may be overstating the case...............
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however, a friend of mine who used to teach in women's studies put "choice" into perspective. she related "choice" to the practice of suttee
choice is one of those chimera western society loves to bang on about (no offence intended emma). the thing is though, we're always constrained in our choices by social norms/values/morality/expectations and other types of hassles.
so you could argue that women or men have all kinds of choices, but that argument always overlooks that the range of choices is extremely limited. usually we're given the impression of freedom of choice, but in fact... you have to get that boob-job in order to be sexy, or, you have to have a big car to be masculine, or, if you choose to remain childless you are 'sad'.
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Apropos pole dancing... (warning contains Steven Colbert)
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Interesting links Jackie. The "pole dancing lessons in a real strip club" offer begs the question: how long before the mainstreaming of raunch culture leads to "improve your sex life by learning the art of oral sex (and other tricks!) in a real brothel?". No doubt we'll be eased into that by first being offered "Spice up your marriage by learning 'massage' in a real massage parlour!" Ah yes, just imagine it: a few wines at two in the afternoon with ladies like yourself*, learning the difference between "oil or talc?", great fun for the gals ...
The Santa Fe confessional is interesting too in that it's written by a man. It's well written and I don't dispute what he's saying but ... I wonder how long he's been working there, and what a woman co-worker might say/confess. As may be apparent by now I've tiptoed through the sex industry myself. It's all fun and exciting and 'edgy' when you start but after a few years you see so many different things that are 'wrong' that the gloss wears off and one day you wake up and realise you're standing ankle deep in shit. And realise people that have been there longer than you are knee deep in shit. And some are drowning in it, without realsing it. And others do realise it but have become resigned to the fact their life is shit, and don't think they're worth more.
Okay, enough of the shit metaphor! The sex business does provide an opportunity to make a lot of money fast but my advice is to (if you're going to do it) get in, earn it, and get out. Most women go in with a 'Pretty Woman' type fantasy (I'll just do it while I'm young, but stay classy, live the high life with ALL that money I'm earning, and Richard Gere will one day carry me away to his mansion), but end up in a reality more akin to the gang-bang scene that closes 'Last Exit to Brooklyn'. (Yikes, a bit much for Saturday morning?).
Mike Havoc, Georgina Beyer, and Steve Crowe in a Hot Tub
(not sure who the one wearing the hat is)* I'm not referring to __you personally Jackie, it's generic __
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choice is one of those chimera western society loves to bang on about (no offence intended emma).
None taken, Che. I did actually write a really long paragraph about real choice and what it requires, but I figured I'd been banging on enough here and someone else was well capable of making that point.
To be really brief, it requires information ('you can freely choose between A and B, but I'm not telling you what they are'), and it requires freedom from non-logical non-inherent consequences. By which I mean that, say, if you choose to vote for a particular political party, there are natural consequences of that, like they'll cut taxes or increase spending. But there may be other consequences, such as if you vote for the oppositition the boys will be round in the morning to take you 'for a ride'.
From there I could push out into more debateable territory and say, real choice requires a certain degree of intelligence, in order to work out what the hidden consequences of an action might be. So if your party promises they'll cut taxes you should be able to deduce that this might mean cutting spending as well even though they don't want to talk about it.
And having information means not being lied to about what the consequences of your actions might be, which I think is particularly important for teenagers. Whether that means not being told that marrying money will make you happy, or not being told that having pre-marital sex will ruin your life.
I agree with anjum about social conditioning and the way it affects women getting down on women because they genuinely believe it's good for them. It took me a long, long time to realise that my mother nagged me about my weight because she really thought I would be happier thin, and because she had her own body image problems. It's still something I make a conscious effort not to pass on to my daughter, which includes things like not saying I look terrible in photos.
I'm interested that Michael knows women who've had breast reductions, because there's a flip side to 'big knockers make you sexy'. My high school biology teacher was insistent that I should get a breast reduction, because otherwise no-one would take me seriously. Women with large breasts are stupid. (Being interrupted while he was demonstrating where the scars would go led to one of those 'hilarious misunderstandings' that made high school so much fun.)
Once again, blurring the line between comment and blog...
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I'd just like it to be normal to see older women in TV presenter and newsreader roles ... women with the mature appearance of eg Mark Sainsbury, Kevin Milne, Paul Holmes and their ilk. Matinee idols they ain't, but those blokes still have their jobs despite the vanishing shag factor.
To pick up on the Georgina Beyer question, are we all playing let's pretend? Does anyone think female-to-male transexuals are really men? Or are they surgically altered females with bodies full of chemicals? Which is not to say, of course, that they are not damned fine individuals deserving of love and respect, but biologically....
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