(As you were. You can only raise the level of the discussion from here.)

Are we supposed to talk seriously about Auckland now?

i found it really interesting listing to willie and jt on radio live yesterday. those guys werte really disheartened, JT even said he would have been happy for 3 elections worth of Maori seats with?

You do realise that whatever they do here is coming your way next, Don?

Do your worst Auckland. Sling Banksie along. We can cope.

I am struggling to engage on the pros and cons of this topic anyway. Will it make Aucklanders more or less likely to continue whipping gift?

Waitakere?s Deputy Mayor, Penny Hulse, says the model is not seen anywhere else in the world. ?And there is a reason for that -?

I am struggling to engage on the pros and cons of this topic anyway

I noticed... :)

If you nominate me I'll stand. I think Akl could do with a little homespun Wellington Wisdom.

In all seriousness I've now visited and lived in a few cities, some famous some not. There are a whole bunch of things I like about Auckland but in the end I think you can tell how rich Auckland is by the?

I think Akl could do with a little homespun Wellington Wisdom.

It could also do some good IT advice, what with the proposed move to '1 IT data system' for the entire region and all.

I wonder how soon the report reckons that will happen...

I think Akl could do with a little homespun Wellington Wisdom.

I'd make that your campaign slogan, Don.

(That was sarcasm. I'm trialling tagging all my sarcasm as sarcasm to see if it really would be simpler to do it the other way around.)

It could also do some good IT advice

So, Don for CIO. That's the kind of Wellington Wisdom that might make a difference.

I always loved the concept of an area called Rodney, if we end up with a "Supercity" can we call it Brian?

Brian seems a possibility. Just so you're aware, Bruce is taken (the area around Milton was formerly the Bruce County).

Wikipedia tells me that San Antonio in Texas has a similar population and is almost exactly the same size geographically. They have ten council districts, a mayor, and a 'city manager' person who seems to do all the actual work.

Ah, I thought she meant cities that had gone the?

It could also do some good IT advice, what with the proposed move to '1 IT data system' for the entire region and all.

I wonder how soon the report reckons thatwill happen...

I've been wondering that too. There's potential for all kinds of mess in trying to unify all?

I've not lived in Auckland since 1989, but I visited regularly from then until 2002 when I left Wgtn for Sydney. I get back at least once a year now.

It occurs to me that the merits of?

I've been wondering that too. There's potential for all kinds of mess in trying to unify all those systems in a year

Easy, peasy, lemon squeezy. And they should add a whole bunch of extra functionality to it as well, to free up frontline staff's time, and reduce cost back-room?

It could also do some good IT advice, what with the proposed move to '1 IT data system' for the entire region and all.

Well apparently there is only 8 'IT data systems' across all of Auckland already. Them councils have got pretty nifty Enterprise Architects by the sound of?

Brian seems a possibility. Just so you're aware, Bruce is taken (the area around Milton was formerly the Bruce County).

Wayne County would be fabulous. And perfect for the Big Gay Out!

For clarification

Auckland is not rated the fifth best city in which to live for no reason. And who cares if we have Westies at one end, the blue rinse brigade at the other, the North Shorites and the South Aucklanders, not to mention the inner city?

In his favour: he has money and an organisation and a strong brand.

Against: contrary to popular belief, he did not score a "landslide" in the Auckland mayoralty. He won with almost exactly the same number of votes he got when Dick?

The last thing central government wants is a functional Auckland that knows what it wants and has enough clout (and the funding) to get it. The current arrangements let CG hand out the pork in a manner that suits its interests. CG can always claim a?

Ahem, I said, Rusty Brown for Mayor... do I hear a seconder?

That's the second flattering shoulder-tap I've had today! But, er, no. I like my current job.

And my patience for long meetings is probably only slightly better than Pam Corkery's.

Turnout is Banks' enemy. Anyone campaigning against him should be well aware of that.

But also vote splitting if there are too many candidates ranged against him

That's the second flattering shoulder-tap I've had today! But, er, no. I like my current job.

I can understand your or anyone's reluctance. I suspect it's a pretty crappy job, however it's vitally important job that needs desparately fresh talent.

You'll make up your own mind, all I'm saying is?

As it is the people of Manukau have a center that they can relate to

A (westfield) shopping centre?

I don't like the way the "supercity" is going to be run, but it's ridiculous to suggest that the outer parts of Auckland's urban sprawl are cities in any real sense.?

That's the second flattering shoulder-tap I've had today! But, er, no. I like my current job.

Ok, that clears the way for my bid then. We have just held our inaugural election campaign meeting and already some very interesting ideas are formulating.

As this is about saving money and (cough)?

Yep... that's how he got in the first time.... I've forgotten who the candidates were, but there were two nearly equal quality left-ish candidates, who nicely split the left vote so that Banksy got in. Then, he?

And why does everyone keep using the boring old locution "super city", when we could just cut to the chase and start talking about a Mega City?

Megalopolis anyone ?

Can I nominate Yoshimi for Mayor ?

Everyone git breedin'.

i.e. the bigger it gets the less super it becomes.

We need someone to clean up this town and put a stop to waste, extravagance and endless consultation. How about this man?

Why stop at mega ?

Ah, the word you are looking for is 'Quantum'.

If elected, I will make Auckland the world's first Quantum City.

Is anyone else wondering whether the Supercity could be the first step in a plan to centralise control of public assets and services prior to hocking them off into private (corporate) ownership.

No, the first step was Rodney getting the post of Monster of Local Government. He's made no secret?

People have been saying that the local sub-councils have no money.

That isn't true at all. They have no authority to levy money from the citizens of the area. Instead they will have to lobby (suck up to) the super mayor.

But they will do just that?

...which one assumes is code for having them contract out all their operations other than rubber-stamping paperwork for building plans

Indeed. From what I've read, the community boards won't have any say over planning and resource consents.

And, presumably, 20-odd councillors will never have the time to look at them?

San Antonio is a very odd place. There are some really neat things they've done, The Riverwalk is a loop of the local river made into a canal lined with cafes restaurants etc. It could have been really great but in the end San Antonio is in Texas which?

Which leaves....who exactly?

Um I'm pretty sure that I've never seen a councilor in any of the planning departments that I've been into (which isn't that many to be fair) and I didn't think councilors bothered themselves with resource consents either. They're busy people after all – meetings to go?

Is anyone else wondering whether the Supercity could be the first step in a plan to centralise control of public assets and services prior to hocking them off into private (corporate) ownership.

I oft think that, especially with the process that has been adopted. No referendum,ignoring the Royal Commission recommendations?

Once in power, he then created a false "financial crisis" (Nick Smith taking notes, perhaps) and introduced an agenda and approach that?

We need someone to clean up this town and put a stop to waste, extravagance and endless consultation.

Oh – isn't that what John Banks stood for?

I think part of the problem Auckland faces is that years of underinvestment now requires the dreaded rates rises simply to catch up. The last 10yr plan actually required double-digit rates growth just to be delivered on.
But try?

As this is about saving money and (cough) improving services to Auckland we have decided to move the new council's head offices to Wellington.

There is precedent for this. Surrey County Council (the local body for an area SW of London) has its offices in the London suburb of Kingston,?

Megalopolis

http://megatripolisarchive.co.uk/flyers.asp?page=1|Megatripolis

Um I'm pretty sure that I've never seen a councilor in any of the planning departments that I've been into (which isn't that many to be fair) and I didn't think councilors bothered themselves with resource consents either.

Apologies Bart – I didn't put that very well. And you're right?

It could have been really great but in the end San Antonio is in Texas which is in the USA. So the cafes and restaurants are chains and it just didn't have a feel to it.

Hey, Texas has a feel to it. It may not be a feel that?

Don't forget the slight of hand move the Cit-Rats and Banks made on Auckland last time – separating out rubbish charges and splitting off water and waste water charges – both adding substantially to householders' costs but not acknowledged as 'rates?

But they will do just that and they will have a budget. And my guess is that budget will not be small and it will employ lots of nice folks to keep the local area clean/pretty/artistic/etc/etc/etc

You are right in part Bart... the local boards will get a allocated budget?

Will there be any recourse for submissions to the Local Govt Commission as they build the details for this?

It is very definately going to be on the (very) fast track, but the Commission has the task of setting the ward and local board boundaries. At this point it is?

Current practice among many councils is:

Low level consents, not requiring hearing, will be decided by council officers, using specific delegated authority.

A mid-level application, with a hearing, may be determined by local councillors/community board members. They will get standard meeting allowances.

High level applications?

I hereby accuse Kyle Matthews of stealing my thoughts.....

Snooze you lose baby.

Um I'm pretty sure that I've never seen a councilor in any of the planning departments that I've been into (which isn't that many to be fair) and I didn't think councilors bothered themselves with resource consents?

It would take an absence of non-Maori (sic) under the current system to convince me that they need special treatment.

Sharples made the point that they had stood multiple Maori candidates in Waitakere – some with national status, with not result to date.

North Shore elected a Polynesian councillor for?

One could also argue that the Treaty doesn't apply to local government, and that the consultation requirements currently followed by councils ensures that Maori don't get ignored when decisions are made.

Roger, that's interesting. Certainly?

I suspect some would argue that if Maori want representation, they should get it in some form, as the Treaty of Waitangi guarantees them that.

Another way to look at it is that if the Europeans want representation, they can go back to Europe.

Who decides the resource consents?

Bear in mind the RMA is being remixed as we speak.

One could also argue that the Treaty doesn't apply to local government

That must be why local government has been the largest taker of Maori land for public works then?

I will now remove tongue from cheek... but then again perhaps I shouldn't?

Another way to look at it is that if the Europeans want representation, they can go back to Europe

Brilliant!

2) I'm not sorry to see the Maori seats go. It's not "acceptable" to say so, I'm sure, but I'm not. If Maori want representation, they can stand alongside all the other candidates.

The thing is, Maori representation at local government levels has been historically very poor, and the proposed?

Another way to look at it is that if the Europeans want representation, they can go back to Europe.

Where, pray tell, in Europe? After six generations, New Zealand is no less my family's only home than it is the only home of any Maori person. I don't belong anywhere?

Where, pray tell, in Europe? After six generations, New Zealand is no less my family's only home than it is the only home of any Maori person. I don't belong anywhere else.

Seconded. And this is why I hate the expression "New Zealand European"; I'm not a European, never have?

Where, pray tell, in Europe? After six generations, New Zealand is no less my family's only home than it is the only home of any Maori person. I don't belong anywhere else.

I've been here to ten years and I don't want to go anywhere either, but I'd also like?

The way forward is not to harken back to the 1950s, rather we should be integrating a bi-cultural model in our local government to make sure we get better decisions, ones that are cognisant of everyone's interests – including Maori.

Not to be flippant, but what about Asian seats? Or?

Not to be flippant, but what about Asian seats? Or Niuean? After all, more Nieuans live in Auckland than live on Niue. I know that Maori have a place in our history that pre-dates anyone else

Oh, look, you've answered your own question.

I thought his comments that "Maori built this city" and that it was only developed by Euro colonialists on Maori's good faith and largesse were interesting, but probably?

STATE – # of councils – Ave pop
Queensland – 158 – 32,016
New Zealand – 73 – 56,702
New South Wales – 150 – 45,342
Victoria – 79 – 64,446
Western Australia – 142 – 14,443
South Australia – 70 – 22,750
Northern Territory – 39 – 18,925?

City Councils – People per councillor
Brisbane – 36,635
Gold Coast – 33,171
Old Auckland City – 21,525
Old North Shore City – 13,456
Wellington City – 12,560
Sydney – 16,880
Darwin – 5,487
Melbourne – 7,466
Hobart – 4,067
Adelaide – 1,700
Perth – 1,493
New Auckland Council?

Oh, look, you've answered your own question.

Exactly.

Interestingly, the Crown had no problem whatsoever assuming sovereignty despite the fact that they would have been lucky to make 2% of the population.

Asians, Niueans and everyone else are catered for via the Crown side of Te Tiriti. i.e. the Crown?

The Maori
The Chinese
The Indian
The Pacifican
The 1-in-5
The European Other with eccentric but undeniably progressive views on housing, transport and employment
The Environmentalist with the annoying habit of holding everything up while we think about the future
and Blair Strang

without attempting to put into law a particular level of representation of a particular ethnicity

Matthew, this is not about ethnicity! It is about contractually guaranteed soverenty and guardianship of their lands and treasures. A Treaty cannot be disregarded or ignored simply because it is old.

If you want to?

No, Giovanni, I haven't answered my own question. At some point, "history" stops being an adequate answer. 170 years is a long time.

I see. So constitutional documents have an expiry date, do they? That's interesting, and should have probably been pointed out to the signatories at the time. Maybe?

This is why it is crucial that when people make Aotearoa their home they are educated on bi-culturalism and the role of Te Tiriti in our society.

You mean like the fourth-generation kids from the Chinese workers who came here at the start of the 20th Century? Or the third-generation?

Which is?

What legal obligation do TLAs have to honour the treaty? Untold moral obligations. But legal?

Arguably, the more influence central government exerts on TLAs, the stronger the obligation becomes?

At some point, "history" stops being an adequate answer. 170 years is a long time.

It's really, really not.

I'm getting a very weird whiff of something at the moment. Something like... Orewa.

Local Government Act 2002
4 Treaty of Waitangi – In order to recognise and respect the Crown's responsibility to take appropriate account of the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi and to maintain and improve opportunities for Maori to contribute to local government decision-making processes, Parts 2 and 6?

Asians, Niueans and everyone else are catered for via the Crown side of Te Tiriti. i.e. the Crown is their representative, but the Crown can not represent Maori -?

You mean like the fourth-generation kids from the Chinese workers who came here at the start of the 20th Century? Or the third-generation Tongans whose parents survived the dawn raids? The children of Navtej Singh, maybe?

Yep, everyone in fact.

Look, we've done monocultural governance to death . It has?

The biggest problem with the entire proposal is that it's geared toward getting rich people into power. That's no less applicable to the proposed?

Matthew, thanks for the link. I think the Aussie author may not be familiar with the Treaty layer which goes beyond the general indigenous rights he mentions.

I'm not claiming for a second that the proposed arrangements were as good as they could be, but?

I think the Aussie author may not be familiar with the Treaty layer which goes beyond the general indigenous rights he mentions.

The Aussie author is Ng?ti Kahu, actually. Born and bred and educated in Aotearoa.

Oh. Then he's ignoring one of the key arguments, surely.

I wouldn't say 'ignoring', actually. He's making a pretty sophisticated case for the right to representation being tied to manua whenua status as opposed to race, a point which has been raised in this very thread. He's not saying that?

Yep... that's how he got in the first time.... I've forgotten who the candidates were, but there were two nearly equal quality left-ish candidates, who nicely split the left vote so that Banksy got in. Then, he pissed everybody off, and Hubbard won on the "anyone but banksy" vote...

Wasn't?

[p.s. I just switched over to the Parliament channel]

a proposal to bring that sort of election to Auckland

Um, FPP is not MMP.

I'm glad others have picked up the point that Maori representation is about honouring the Treaty of Waitangi, not about "ethnicity".

Well, Pita Sharples did a poor job of making his case this morning on RNZ. He said something along the lines of:

"well, it puts us down with the?

"well, it puts us down with the Indians, Chinese and Samoans..."

I though that was pretty offensive.

And from a former race conciliator, no less.

Um, FPP is not MMP.

Quite right. A fact that I'm surprised eludes some members of Parliament.

As I understand it, Ministers are responsible for their portfolios. All the "agree to disagree" stuff is about issues outside their portfolios. The Minister for Maori Affairs must?

something along the lines of:
"well, it puts us down with the Indians, Chinese and Samoans..."

Only Sharples did not actually say that.

Here he is on RNZ (1.4MB, 4mins) responding to the preceding interview with Rodney Hide (3MB, mins):

"He has lumped us with the Indians and the Chinese?

We made a good TV show too.

. . . in The House and the Speaker is doing a great job of trying to see a way through for Pita . . .

Isn't he shaping up well. Must be those delicate hands, just made for locating the finest nuance in Standing Orders.

And...

City Councils – People per councillor
Brisbane – 36,635
Gold Coast – 33,171
Old Auckland City – 21,525
Old North Shore City – 13,456
Wellington City – 12,560
Sydney – 16,880
Darwin – 5,487
Melbourne – 7,466?

As a former (and I hope repeat) Maori list Green candidate, how would you say our communities (both local and nation-wide) would benefit from entrenched Maori representation?

Isn't he shaping up well.

Well, he certainly thinks so :)

Much of the media comment has been mean spirited or even minimal

Not just the media either.Last night National MP's chose to try one last dig (which I found deplorable) which made me turn off the channel.

Like I have said I find the continual parroting that our councils are small and fragmented, and argument that so clearly flies in the face of all the facts, really depressing. As I said yesterday Melbourne has 29 odd councils and a State government and they seem to do?

Much of the media comment has been mean spirited or even minimal

Not just the media either.Last night National MP's chose to try one last dig (which I found deplorable) which made me turn off the channel.

Hey, it's still early days – she's not even 60. Let's not begrudge?

Like Paul said: the time for consultation is over.

Jose,just speaking to JK on BFM has got him to agree, "NO IDEA" what it will cost.No consultation with Maori. No reason why it must be done by 2010 and did a fine job in asking.

What I'd like to know ... is why all these list members of Parliament, who were elected at-large and support proportional representation in Parliament, are now speaking out against a proposal to bring that sort of election to Auckland...

Er, because the proposed Auckland system is not proportional representation?

It?

we can't get to multiculturalism (even if this was possible or desired) without first implementing bi-culturalism.

Are you sure we can't get to multiculturalism directly. It would seem sad to me to think that we can't recognise the values/needs/responsibilities of all parts of our culture at the?

A couple of points on Helen's tribute time and the mean National digs

Might I remind you of her behaviour when Don Brash made his last speech, disgraceful and ungracious

Two wrongs don't make a right but lets not make a mole hill into a mountain

And?

Aren't all Maori MPs in Maori electorate seats? Which means it couldn't survive without 'em.

If biculturalism is the first step towards multiculturalism, and if biculturalism is served by Maori seats, then multiculturalism must be served by all seats being allocated to other ethnicities.

But why stop there? Surely,?

One could also argue that the Treaty doesn't apply to local government

One could. One would look silly though.

And how history may judge her, two words

Winston Peters

Which I admit was an uncharacteristic slip but really came across as someone who would do almost anything to cling to?

Aren't all Maori MPs in Maori electorate seats? Which means it couldn't survive without 'em.

Why? All the Maori electorate voters would have to go somewhere. Who's to say what what happen in Northland (or Gisborne, at least once Hormoia is gone) if the electorate demographics (and boundaries) changed because?

If biculturalism is the first step towards multiculturalism, and if biculturalism is served by Maori seats, then multiculturalism must be served by all seats being allocated to other ethnicities.
But why stop there? Surely, culture is larger than ethnicity. Gay seats. Transport seats. Music seats.

I thought we covered this?

And how history may judge her, two words

Winston Peters

That's like saying history judges FDR in one word: Yalta.

There are several pretty big volumes of history to read before you get to that chapter. History may be written by the winners, but it certainly shouldn't be written by?

Aren't all Maori MPs in Maori electorate seats?

Eh? You mean all the MPs who are Maori are in Maori seats? There are plenty that aren't: Georgina Te Heu Heu? Meteria Turei? Parekura Horomia?

But I do think that James has a point on "community of interest seats". I think?

I particularly like the wards-as-Local-Boards with direct Council representation model, and could even handle a smaller number of (proportionally voted) at-large members under that model to work as "independent directors".?

Gay seats. Transport seats. Music seats.

That brings some odd images to mind.

Seriously that's an extreme version of the discussion and not really helpful. You don't need to go to extremes. And if you can get benefit from a partial measure the fact that an extreme measure might be?

Eh? You mean all the MPs who are Maori are in Maori seats? There are plenty that aren't: Georgina Te Heu Heu? Meteria Turei? Parekura Horomia?

I understood him to mean all M?ori Party MPs were MPs in M?ori electorates, which is true.

I would note, however, that Parekura Horomia?

Ok, you got me there.... But compared to Banks...

Shall we just say Christine and Mat are sane-ish, and split the sane vote? :)

Isn't he shaping up well.

Well, he certainly thinks so :)

Lockwood's now in a tricky position trying to get Minister's to answer questions but not having to judge the quality of the answer. I hope he manages it. He did well yesterday when Smith was flat out evading a?

He did well yesterday when Smith was flat out evading a direct question from Mallard re the ACC Chair.

He did do well, but I think this is a little harsh on Nick Smith. He was asked a supplementary question (so without notice) about an apparent inconsistency with a statement?

He did do well, but I think this is a little harsh on Nick Smith. He was asked a supplementary question (so without notice) about an apparent inconsistency with a statement he'd made to NZPA supposedly saying the opposite.

Graeme, I think it reasonable to expect Smith would have thoroughly?

Doh. Yeah meant Maori Party MPs.

Actually, I don't accept my own argument. Bart's right. You just end up with a bunch of tokens. Guess this shows why I'm not a wonk. Mikaere, u=champ.

Roger: how do the representation stats (1:70K) compare to some of those?

will the auckland tail wag the New Zealand dog? hope not as 3/4 of nzers dont live there!

Actually only 66% of NZers don't live here and that's changing every day.

The Auckland as a nation-state within NZ is a red herring.

What I don't get is why a perceived?

Roger: how do the representation stats (1:70K) compare to some of those other places to which Auckland's been compared, e.g. Toronto?

James... I don't have North American numbers. A year or so I got interested and tracked down the Australian numbers so I had those at hand, but it is?

Richard Florida has it nicely here

__As housing starts and housing prices rose, so did tax revenues, and a major capital-spending boom occurred throughout the Greater Phoenix area. Arizona State University built a new downtown Phoenix campus, and the city expanded its convention center and constructed a 20-mile light-rail system?

Well actually that was easy! Toronto has a Mayor (elected at large) and 44 councillors (from 44 wards) for a population of 2.5 million or 1:55,600

The Green Party, in its submission to the RC, made a similar suggestion. If the commission decided on a smaller Auckland (metropolitian) council with executive powers, then:

__"All the Community Council members form an electoral college, immediately after the local body elections, to vote for the?

If the commission decided on a smaller Auckland (metropolitian) council with executive powers, then:

"All the Community Council members form an electoral college, immediately after the local body elections, to vote for the members of the Auckland Metropolitan Council." (on pg 27)

The Greens also proposed two Maori Community Councils,?

Rodney District Council – 13 councillors
1 Maori

North Shore City Council – 16?

So instead of voting for who might be the best person for my community board, I vote for the person who will choose the mayor

The Greens opposed having a mayor – one of the current?

"community councils" – were proposed ... They wouldn't have regulatory powers, employ staff, or govern local authority organisations.

Oh! So completely impotent then?

In my view we have a national governance structure that is based on biculturalism flowing from the treaty (in the?

... Mayor of North Shore...

Craig... that is a very unkind thing to say about the leader of your community!

... Mayor of North Shore...

Craig... that is a very unkind thing to say about the leader of your community!

.....and so it begins :)

So completely impotent then?

In the government's proposal, yes. In Mikaere's proposal, the community boards are the source of Councillors. Big difference.

If biculturalism is the first step towards multiculturalism

It isn't. Two different things.

I fully support the concept of significant positive change in Auckland Governance – I just feel what we have been given a "negative" change in Governance. Power in Auckland will?

There's a residual mention of it on the Auckland City Council website, but the primary website itself has quietly disappeared.

This was back in 2006-07, when the Labour government gave the city councils of the Auckland region an opportunity to sort things out?

the Government has chosen to ignore the recommendation for a 4 year transition and, with no real rationale as to why, gone for a 18 month transition.

Fran O'Sullivan thinks the urgency is related to the Rugby World Cup. That might explain the tilting of the balance in favour of central?

Myself, I believe that Key, Hide and others simply do not understand governance and citizenship.

I disagree. I think they understand them perfectly well. They just don't like them because they get in the way.

Wonder what corporate governance representatives like the Institute of Directors make of this?

We need political leaders who can lead and manage change. "They need to be able to make policy choices quickly and efficiently," Jennings says. "We know what kind of political behaviour our?

Oh, Te Standard makes the same point.

And it is a very sound one. They bother me as much as any other group of righteous ideologues.

Even leaving aside Jennings' participation in such a rotten economic phenomenon as the Russian oligarchy, his pronouncements seem banal to me. It really is?