Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: About Arie

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  • Sue,

    , it is currently hearsay from an anonymous source.

    year which is why i think the next or 3rd comment asked for clarification, and we've not talked more till we get it.

    everyone here, truly deeply wishes and hopes it will all turn out that arie fell and tripped, on his own.

    but if he feel or tripped that badly I'd like to think the police would send him to a doctor for medical treatment, and I'd like to think that doctor would spot his autism and that doctor would then make sure that the justice system was aware of those circumstances.

    that didn't happen did it, or we would have heard that
    why didn't that happen?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 469 posts Report Reply

  • Andre Alessi, in reply to FletcherB,

    were for petrol-generators keeping cell towers and road-side exchanges going at a time when they had no power and their battery backup was dwindling…. in a city with thousands of people trying to contact one another to let them know they were OK, and a few calling for help from within crushed buildings…

    Just a note-the generators were only intended to service TelstraClear roadside cabinets, which only carry calls for TelstraClear network landlines. Other phone networks (mobile, Telecom PSTN, etc) would have been unaffected by the theft even if the power did run out, and given the pretty parlous state of landline cables around the city in the days after the earthquake (and loss of power for houses which only had cordless phones) it wouldn't have been a guarantee of service for that many people anyway. For the sake of perspective, there are about 180 TelstraClear cabinets in Christchurch, and each back up generator was intended to power one cabinet (and one of those three generators was found beside a cabinet the day after it was reported missing.)

    Which isn't to say that the theft wasn't a scummy thing to do, and that the people that did it appear to have no extenuating circumstances to justify why they'd nick essential network equipment, but we're not talking about someone torching an ambulance or something equally life-threatening here. It appears to be a case of simple dickishness.

    Devonport, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 856 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    everyone here, truly deeply wishes and hopes it will all turn out that arie fell and tripped, on his own.

    He also could have been injured in that earthquake they had down there recently.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 899 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen,

    I'd like to reiterate, the one thing we know for certain is that the police arranged for a "perp walk". They prep'd the media and then displayed the accused for public humiliation.

    Whatever else happens from this case I want the police told in no uncertain terms that displaying untried people (Innocent until proven) for public humiliation is not acceptable.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3253 posts Report Reply

  • Sue,

    He also could have been injured in that earthquake they had down there recently.

    which again maybe the police could have thought oo that person needs medical help maybe, but it didn't happen

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 469 posts Report Reply

  • Rhys Lewis, in reply to Russell Brown,

    You might also wish to point out where I aired ” the well-worn cliche that cops are thugs who beat people up”.

    I was referring to this comment:

    The police brutally beat a young man who we now know to be disabled.

    You may have known at the time that there was a good justification for saying that this event occurred, but you did not make reference to any sources, or the need to protect any sources by not naming them. So it read simply as a prejudicial comment. If it were a comment made without evidence, then it would align with other unsubstantiated comments regarding police brutally beating people.

    But if you are such an expert

    My experience is not as an expert.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Whatever else happens from this case I want the police told in no uncertain terms that displaying untried people (Innocent until proven) for public humiliation is not acceptable.

    good luck with that. their intention looks to have been to discourage more looters by making an example.

    they'll be arguing very hard that their means justified and end -> limiting looting.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    FWIW, I’m satisfied in light of our email exchange that Nikki Wysman, who posted the comment regarding Arie confirming he was beaten by the police, is a real person and knows the family.

    They’re understandably cautious as to how much to say at this point, and are taking legal advice, but I may hear some more later in the day.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18649 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Rhys Lewis,

    You may have known at the time that there was a good justification for saying that this event occurred, but you did not make reference to any sources, or the need to protect any sources by not naming them. So it read simply as a prejudicial comment. If it were a comment made without evidence, then it would align with other unsubstantiated comments regarding police brutally beating people.

    It's hardly "without evidence". Arie has injuries consistent with a beating. He was in police custody. We already know that police had treated in him a highly questionable way by placing him in the "perp walk". We have -- subject to conformation -- a report that he has told his foster sister he was beaten by police. A court of law would require a bit more than that -- and would get it by being able to interview those involved -- but this isn't a court of law.

    My view remains that the overwhelming likelihood is that Arie sustained his injuries in custody, at the hands of police officers. So much so that I'm prepared to state it as fact.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18649 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant, in reply to Nikki Wysman,

    His foster sister spoke to Arie and Arie confirmed that it was the police that Beat him

    I want prosecutions. Anything less is the police covering for their own - again.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1627 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Che Tibby,

    they'll be arguing very hard that their means justified and end -> limiting looting.

    They might argue it, but it's not a defence in law, is it?

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7337 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    political argument.

    and likely a political outcome. these men are the heros of the quake gio. HEROS!!

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Sacha,

    Take the right-wing tosh elsewhere, David.

    And please get the hell out of my line of sight before espousing that it is “right-wing” as opposed to generally vile to espouse the notion that the ever present threat of rape and Police thuggery is what keeps the rule of law working, thanks.

    Like it or not, Laws is just as entitled to express his point of view as anyone else.

    Yes, I’ve said here more than one that being a free-speech fundamentalist requires defending people you wouldn’t let in your house without making sure you had a hazmat suit and a taser. But my freedom of speech does not come with freedom from criticism or consequence. (If I said half the idiotic shit Laws does on my PA Radio slot, I suspect both the producers of the show and Radio Live would exercise their right to decline to continue giving me a platform. Not that difficult to grasp, sir.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11849 posts Report Reply

  • Peter Darlington,

    People on my Twitter feed may remember a series of posts about 6 months ago after some friends of our's son committed suicide while on remand in Christchurch prison. What it highlighted was the truly frightening system that young people (before being convicted of any crime) are placed into while they wait for many months for trial. We could scarcely believe it when the truth started coming out.

    Thanks to some of the TV3 contacts on Twitter John Campbell briefly took an interest but by the time the family were in a state to talk about it JC was too busy on other things. I'm not going to go into detail about it here but if this young man is in Christchurch Prison on remand then his family should be very afraid for his situation, getting their counsel on the case and making very very sure he's kept away from the senior population and left alone until his case is heard.

    Happy to talk one to one about it Russ if you plan on following up anything further about the Arie case.

    Nelson • Since Nov 2006 • 883 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    Whether it is consciously acknowledged or not, civilised society (i.e. the rule of law) absolutely requires such threats as police beatings and prison rape to function.

    Wow, I've totally missed the part in any court sentencing where "rape twice a day" and "get assaulted by cops 5 times before being incarcerated" are handed out as part of the penalty. That "rule of LAW" is an interesting thing, isn't it?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 465 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Idiot Savant,

    I want prosecutions. Anything less is the police covering for their own

    Assuming that the officer(s) responsible can even be identified. Or do you want every officer who came into contact with Arie prosecuted, just because?

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3898 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Assuming that the officer(s) responsible can even be identified. Or do you want every officer who came into contact with Arie prosecuted, just because?

    Presumably (if the police were in fact responsible) if the officer(s) responsible can't be identified, it would be because none of the officers present were willing to identify them. I think this counts as "the police covering for their own", no?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 801 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    This is one case where besides some solid publicity I'd actually prefer a restorative justice process so all involved get to understand each other's perspectives. Seems better than the slim chance of a meaningful and non-traumatising counter-prosecution.

    To me, this one of those issues where our own emotional responses mirror those at the heart of the situation. I guess we're all capable of being vigilantes. I'm reminded that a prime function of justice is to protect potential perpetrators from our own raw human inclinations, not just to defend victims.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16414 posts Report Reply

  • DCBCauchi,

    It's incredible how for some people some things seem to be literally unthinkable.

    I never said that without the threat of prison violence people would run riot(or some such nonsense) nor did I suggest it is an explicit part of the sentencing process. I am saying that you can't have police, courts, and prisons without the violence that necessarily goes along with that. It's meant to be frightening.

    Crime is not 'outside' of our society. It's a functioning part of it just like everything else.

    I just think it's wrong for anyone, whoever they are, to be beaten by the police, stigmatised by the media, and thrown in jail.

    As for the Mary Whitehouse wanna-bes, I'm not in favour of limits on free speech, broadcast or otherwise. Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre can be, and has been, a valid artistic strategy.

    Since Feb 2011 • 320 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Assuming that the officer(s) responsible can even be identified. Or do you want every officer who came into contact with Arie prosecuted, just because?

    I expect the police to investigate this properly and identify those responsible. If they can't or won't do that, then I expect the IPCA and the Ombudsmen (in their role as NPM for the Convention Against Torture) to do it for them, as well as a political investigation into the police heirarchy to identify the obvious failures to do their fucking job properly (either in the investigation, or in establishing a police culture where this sort of shit is absolutely unacceptable and people do not look the other way or cover for their mates when it happens).

    Beating suspects is a crime. Covering up for it is a crime. I expect our police to not be criminals, and I want any officer engaging in such behaviour to be prosecuted and sacked. Is that simple enough, or have I left further room for your deliberate misinterpretation?

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1627 posts Report Reply

  • Danyl Mclauchlan,

    I never said that without the threat of prison violence people would run riot(or some such nonsense) nor did I suggest it is an explicit part of the sentencing process. I am saying that you can't have police, courts, and prisons without the violence that necessarily goes along with that. It's meant to be frightening.

    If you look at our criminal justice system, the threat of violence etc appears to be frightening to people who are unlikely to commit crimes in the first place, and not at all frightening to people who are desperate, stupid or themselves a violent criminal, so is basically worthless as a deterrent.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 899 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    An Aspie friend expresses his hopes for the justice system:

    'I can begin to look forward to the day that police don't call my eyes "evasive", my body language "guilty", my weird mumblings "lies", my self defence "assault", my late night wanderings "suspicious", my helpfulnesses "crimes", my quiet demeanour "uncooperative", my hesitations "proof". '

    (By the way Arie is now apparently out on bail and being represented by an Aspie- friendly lawyer)

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to DCBCauchi,

    Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theatre can be, and has been, a valid artistic strategy

    Once the trampled crowd realises who's responsible, I doubt that claiming "art" is going to protect you much. Better hope you enjoy a social and legal system that trades off constraints of your absolute rights and imposes some responsibilities of citizenship.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16414 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Danyl Mclauchlan,

    the threat of violence etc appears to be frightening to people who are unlikely to commit crimes in the first place

    And there's scope for discussing that as a mechanism of social control. I believe Mr Cauchi has some useful ideas to contribute there, though I don't much admire some of his other ones.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16414 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    (By the way Arie is now apparently out on bail and being represented by an Aspie- friendly lawyer)

    Hooray!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

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