Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Angry and thrilled about Arie

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  • Graeme Edgeler, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Rumour that Judith Collins has ordered police to drop charges against Arie S-V (and hopefully Michael too). Anyone heard any more?

    I really hope not.

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3215 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I'm really struggling to keep a civil tongue with your for implying that.

    It's really not my week for making myself understood on PAS. I withdraw and apologise.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    It’s really not my week for making myself understood on PAS. I withdraw and apologise.

    Generous of you, but not really necessary. It's a new day today. For my part, clearly the word "forgivable" was problematic for you and Matthew, but I hope I was able to explain the context in which I used it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    One of the reasons I do so like PAS is the generally civilised tone of debate. I had a day yesterday where I was subjected to 2 sets of strangers screaming at me, in separate places, and couldn't get a word in edgewise even had I tried. (My best effort was "have you finished shouting yet?" which was met with a "NO!"). So this last wee exchange between you and Russell, Gio, is beyond heartening to me.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • HORansome, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I can sort of[1] see what you mean if we're talking about the police commanders rather than the arresting officers, which makes more sense of the "psychological bruising" claim you made. I thought you were making some claim about the officers being shellshocked by the earthquake (which somehow made their behaviour forgivable) and couldn't quite see why you would think the police would be more affected by the quake than the rest of the populace, but you meant the bruising caused by the reporting of the incident and the actions of the police after the event.

    So, yes, We (well, Russell and me; I won't assume to know the internal psychological states of Comrade Tiso) were talking past each other; you meant police in one sense and I meant it in another. Apo-logies all around, as Hugh Laurie once said on "Blackadder."

    1. I'm only saying "sort of" here because I still think the duty of care the police have towards us, the public, means this kind of thing should never happen. Some might say I'm asking too much of the humans who make up the police but, frankly, if the standards for getting into the police force weren't so low, we might not get such problematic behaviour from its individual officers.

    Tāmaki Makaurau • Since Sep 2008 • 441 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    I think we are all really on the same page here and we are all a bit sensitive about this topic, not just because there are two real people facing great injustice in NZ now, but how close this situation is potentially to some of our own family situations.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    I really hope not

    I presume you mean so the principled formal process is seen out?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    I think we are all really on the same page here and we are all a bit sensitive about this topic, not just because there are two real people facing great injustice in NZ now, but how close this situation is potentially to some of our own family situations.

    Indeed. The Arie Facebook group has been very difficult at times for its moderators for similar reasons..

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to HORansome,

    shellshocked by the earthquake

    Police are meant to be trained to go beyond our natural human responses in emergencies; to keep cool when others panic and to act as an alternative to vigilantism.

    Seems that's in doubt in this situation and if that embassases senior officers, then it jolly well should. However, we need to resist the temptation to explain Police actions by reaching for stereotypes about official brutality. It lets them off the hook too easily. Restorative justice was not a soft option when they rejected it.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to HORansome,

    couldn’t quite see why you would think the police would be more affected by the quake than the rest of the populace, but you meant the bruising caused by the reporting of the incident and the actions of the police after the event.

    No, I meant that a disaster situation, police officers often to have to see and do things members of the public do not, and are likely to be away from their own homes and families for long periods . They were entitled to make an arrest in the circumstances and I can understand that the arrest of apparent looters at that particular time in Christchurch would make for a highly-charged situation. But understanding how “rough justice” might occur does not mean saying it’s acceptable, at all.

    Which should have been the view of Erasmus and other senior officers. They weren’t working in the heat of the moment, and they are supposed to exercise ethical leadership. They utterly failed in that, and instead they authorised a series of simply cruel decisions, from the “perp walk” to the extraordinary non-association order (granted by Judge Jane Farish at, presumably, the request of the police), to the repeated refusal to approve diversion.

    There was a point before those decisions where it could have been resolved in a way which didn’t place Arie under additional stress, and which acknowledged that he was done wrong. When Simon Buckingham began acting for Arie, he explained that there was unlikely to be an assault complaint against the police:

    "I’m convinced it happened, there’s no question, but the stress levels [involved with making a complaint] … He wouldn’t be able to cope.”

    More importantly, Mr Smith-Voorkamp did not want to detract from the excellent job police were doing in Christchurch.

    “The one thing he doesn’t want is for police to be bagged at a time they need the New Zealand public behind them."

    The assault complaint only came into the picture when it became clear that the cops were going to play hardball. It’s a damn shame the Christchurch police command could never find the good faith this young man was able to summon.

    But yes, I wholly agree with you and Gio, the the point at which this could be done the good-faith way is long past. Although I do not say so with any great hope, I think an inquiry into this case and others is warranted.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    Restorative justice was not a soft option when they rejected it.

    It would have been the decent thing to do.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Sacha,

    embassases

    not an intentional neologism, sorry

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    I think there is some official embarrassment and puzzlement about the ongoing public interest in all of this. After all many local aspies could probably give you examples of police harassment, including unjustified arrest and incarceration, that never attracted any public concern. I have a psychologist colleague who is constantly busy advocating for autistic people as both victims and defendants in the NZ legal system. (She also says first get a lawyer who understands ASD, which is going to be increasingly difficult under the new legal aid and public defence rules).

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    first get a lawyer who understands ASD, which is going to be increasingly difficult under the new legal aid and public defence rules

    Hadn't thought about that - good angle for any decent journalist to follow up on.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg, in reply to Sacha,

    Rumour that Judith Collins has ordered police to drop charges against Arie S-V (and hopefully Michael too). Anyone heard any more?

    I really hope not

    I presume you mean so the principled formal process is seen out?

    I don't believe the minister has the authority to give orders to the police.

    Stockholm • Since Jul 2009 • 802 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    I don’t believe the minister has the authority to give orders to the police.

    No, and if she does I won’t be calling for her resignation but her very public sacking. Blatant political meddling, even if I agree with the motives and find the outcome agreeable, is totally unacceptable.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    I don't believe the minister has the authority to give orders to the police.

    Ah, that's right.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    The Solicitor General can stay a prosecution, though. They don't usually, but they are entitled to conclude that a prosecution isn't in the public interest and stop it.

    We are after all a democracy. The police are not gods.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    The Solicitor General can stay a prosecution, though.

    So where is he at on this?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    Far out. Apology from Chch police?

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    Great that all charges dropped against Arie. No word about Michael though?

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Apology from Chch police?

    Looks like a simple dropping of all charges for now.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Lara,

    @ Hilary, so far as I know charges against Michael have also been dropped. Fantastic news on both counts.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2009 • 82 posts Report Reply

  • Jackie Clark,

    About bloody time. It occurs to me that in their actions the NZ Police have forever impacted the lives of two young men, who were already doing it hard.

    Mt Eden, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3136 posts Report Reply

  • Hilary Stace,

    It was all over in two minutes flat. The Crown withdrew all charges against Arie and Michael's were withdrawn "on the back" of Arie's. The Judge called it "giving him the benefit of the doubt". Janet McIntyre of the Sunday programme was there and various other cameras and journalists

    From Facebook

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report Reply

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