Yeah, this bodes well and I hope Warners get right behind and do what they could (and should) to retain the integrity and significance of the material.

It's promising that so many New Zealand organisations (National Archives and National Library spring to mind with films and music?

and wouldn't it be nice for the Alpaca Brothers' sole EP to be available

Damn right, wonderful ep. I bumped into Bruce Blucher on NYE, had a good yarn to him. His stone-carving business employs 16 people and has a million-dollar-per-year turnover, he said. Good on him, he deserves it.?

Russell, enjoyed your spiel on RNZ National this morning. You saw Sun Ra, you lucky, lucky man.

That's how I felt about it. It was sheer, unfathomable musical joy.

do you want a free for all on digital property?
thats?

I'm wondering why you think its a good stance to paint DRM as evil when in fact it is that the current versions of DRM are shit and constrict the legal purchasers rights to free maneuverability of their property

I actually don't dismiss it entirely, and I find iTunes DRM?

This means you can't give the track to a mate, but you can put it on any of your devices and play it.

But I got the music bug by taping my mate's older brother's LPs and playing them endlessly. I'm kind of embarrassed by what I played (Supertramp? Uriah?

but I've been hearing about how DRM is going to be good for everyone from industry people for nearly a decade now, and it really hasn't been good for anyone.

so really the issue is that no ones come up with a good DRM system yet, not that the concept?

But I got the music bug by taping my mate's older brother's LPs and playing them endlessly.

me too, and theoretically you can still 'tape' a drm file, ie copy it analogue, 1 generation quality loss still very listenable.
or you could listen online on myspace pages etc.
I'm getting?

I do crypto for a living

I don't,
I just outlined a concept for via DRM, as opposed to the rather naive "lets make all music free and pirate-able" concept.
its up to you 'crypto for a living' guys to make it work.

the modern problem is that we have this quite archaic mechanism for protecting the rights of the middle men – the publishers -

That's the over simplified view that pro 'free for all' proponents put forward to gloss over the fact that there are real people putting real work, time,?

...the sound, which was shrieky and very, very loud. Jeez.

About halfway through the Bird Nest Roys first song I had to put earplugs in. Unlike at some gigs, where earplugs seem to suck the soul out of the music, it was loud enough that it just sounded like a?

the record executive and his coke habit, his lawyers – these all do the same thing that the computers and the internet can do at 1% of the cost

major cliche.

I've personally never bought a record that went through this kind of system. Indie self financed releases still have?

Bye Bye WMG seems the likely outcome. Somebody will pick up?

The upside will be that whoever it will likely bang much of it online everywhere for an easy return, DRM free. The downside is that they are unlikely to care much for obscure corners of the vast catalogue from NZ.

The other goss is that Warners will flick the FN?

You're assuming people should be able to make better than ten thousand dollars revenue on making a thousand digital copies of a gig of information. It ain't fair, mate, and law or not people aren't taking it.

Charge less than the time and effort?

even if they can't continue to spend tens of millions turning out a new Britney Spears ever year or two.

there will always be the money and return for something like that. Flick onto MTV for five minutes and tell me its not so.....

I think we'll get down to?

The other goss is that Warners will flick the FN catalogue

The problem there Russell, is that the real value in the FN catalogue was in the publishing and Gudinski kept that.

Not sure why WMG would want to sell the FN cat..majors don't sell anything. Catalogue acquisition is the?

and return to a stress on live performance.

A hell of a lot of fantastic music has been made over the decades by people who simply don't do live performance..I think this is being overstated everywhere right now.

Copyright protection is a cornerstone of our civilization. Much of the great?

indie record selling 1000 copies brings in nz$17000 (wholesale to shops retails for $32 – 75% mark up to the store inc gst)
(david kilgour's albums sell in
CD pressing for 1000 copies $2-3000
Mastering costs – $400- $1000
Artwork $600 – $1000
Recording $5000- 15000 (low end budget)
posters,?

Man, what century is this business model from? We're only a few years away from seeing major bands release all new music over the internet.

I'm willing to bet that in 20 years there will still be a physical format of some sort.

What it will be is anyone's guess?

Patronage enabled a comparatively stagnant class-divided musical culture that moved at a snails-pace compared to the extremely eclectic and rapid development that has happened since the advent of recorded popular music in the 20th century.

In the harsh future I envisage, there will still be recording, and good stuff will?

maybe we'll see DRM go away not because it's too annoying for the user but because it's too?

maybe we'll see DRM go away not because it's too annoying for the user but because it's too annoying for the music industry ....

I think that's what you're seeing happen. DRM has been used as a lever in a way that not only has little to do with the?

Man, what century is this business model from?

I still buy CDs, I like the physical object

your century apparently.

manufacturing a disc is only a small part of the possible equation.
you can spend you money on any number of other things but guarantee most successful journeys won't be?

maybe we'll see DRM go away not because it's too annoying for the user but because it's too annoying for the music industry ....

I think that's what you're seeing happen. DRM has been used as a lever in a way that not only has little to do with the?

maybe we'll see DRM go away not because it's too annoying for the user but because it's too annoying for the music industry ....

it is annoying for all parties involved but no one has demonstrated a stable and repeatable model for reasonable income flow without controlling the duplication of?

These days you can make a great recording in your living room if you know how, and more and more people do – the recording engineer priesthood is going the way of the people who used to look after mainframes

no its not, they're just not getting paid and we're?

he may not have your advertising budget but he doesn't have to pay for your recording company either, nor the stores nor the warehouses, pressing plants, etc etc – as I said the economics are changing

The economics are changing but its deceptive to say there are no costs.

time?

These days you can make a great recording in your living room if you know how, and more and more people do – the recording engineer priesthood is going the way of the people

Yes and no. Firstly you can record all you like in your bedroom but without a?

You're assuming people should be able to make better than ten thousand dollars revenue on making a thousand digital copies of a gig of information. It ain't fair, mate, and law or not people aren't taking it.

you're assuming the lower fee, and that those who take that path can?

But I don't think the sky is going to fall for the average musician, or the genius either. The people who have enjoyed outsized profits through a legal monopoly are the ones who are really going to suffer.

There you go focusing on the exceptions again, the hollywood version of?

but his production costs for great sounding music is an order of magnitude less

absolutely, but its still not nothing. and it grows in order of magnitude when you add more musicians playing together. then you need a mixing desk and multiple input sound cars. still not what it used?

- fewer big stadium tours,

fine by me, I hate sharing my music with more than a couple of hundred,

I don't think that we're going to see an increase in gig going though, the kids have got other thing on their minds, (playstation, supped up cars and herbal highs)?

But that's where many of the bands you just quoted came from – part time

you're talking about new zealand.
no one in nz has ever made a good living from music alone, and those 4 track bands didn't get rich and definitely not strictly from their music. Knox has?

The Enemy and Toy Love were IMHO 100 times better live at the Cook than anything that was ever recorded.

They've only themselves to blame for that. they got the guy from dragon to produce it for fuck sake. and in australia, land of pub rock, what did they expect??

There's endless combinations of laws that might build a commercial structure around the production of art without limiting the non-commercial copying of the same. One example follows.

Trademark laws could be extended to prohibit the commercial use of authors and bands names without paying a fee, protecting?

Give a small compulsory cut of band revenue to songwriters. Done.

It's called a performance right and it's collected by APRA.

The report that Sony BMG is moving to DRM-free downloads represents the music industry's white-flag concession that its copyright-protection scheme created a powerhouse in Apple's iTunes Store while failing to combat piracy ...

Michael Nash, a vice president of digital strategy for Warner, said Dec. 27 that the?

There's endless combinations of laws that might build a commercial structure around the production of art without limiting the non-commercial copying of the same

the laws are already there to protect the rights of copyright holders and creative types, but they are unpolicable with current technology, and anti copying technology?

Being against that is like being against burglar alarms. The issue isn't the DRM its that some people can't be trusted to not steal shit.

Very true – I'm against car alarms as well as DRM. Like you said, its not the idea, its the implementation. Car alarm false alarms?

Mozart? Mozart? Not sure what the state of copyright law was in the Austrian empire, but Mozart supported himself variously as a concert artist, a court composer, and from commissions

You miss the point Stephen.

Copyright law existed in most European countries in one form or another (as far back?

I'm against car alarms as well as DRM. Like you said, its not the idea, its the implementation.

so you're not actually against either in concept, just execution. you want to take that up with the people who design these things.
how bout a car alarm that signals the owner?

If we assume that the sort of deal discussed will be like the one that operates for HDMI/Blu-Ray (whatever !) then we would expect the provision and implementation to reflect?

Finally – Can anyone explain to me (justify ?) why some NZ artists on independent labels charge nearly $2 per track for MP3 downloads ?

Because they're filthy capitalists who're raking it in at the expense of the public?

(Or perhaps because music is a woefully-underpaid activity in which few?

I would suggest the idea DRM was one that knows it is playing for the original purchaser and knows so without any interaction with the client (purchaser).

Would that actually be ideal? Let's apply your ideal model to the music industry as a whole. Magically,?

FFS, you're asking why a song should cost 2/3rds of the price of a coffee...

Or one quarter the price of a beer at the Rising Sun. Now that's a scandal ...

Point of interest: I've mentioned this before, but when you buy a paid download from any service, if?

Value is ascribed to things that people covet- at one point people coveted what they downloaded. They still do to some extent (ie, dimeadozen and the bootleg market, which is a?

Point of interest: I've mentioned this before, but when you buy a paid download from any service, if it's on an independent label, you can safely assume the actual artist is receiving about twice a big a share as his or her major-label counterpart.

that's a bit of a broad?

No, not at all. Much of Real Groovy's and JB HiFi's stock is sourced offshore.

Which brings us nicely to something I've been itching to point out since I went to JB on Queen St a couple of weeks back... I decided against buying the new Amy Winehouse album (or?

you're confusing private purchase with public broadcast.
C4, radio stations and cafes have all licensed the right to play music to you free to air.
When you buy a track or a disc it's for private ownership and use.

No, you're misunderstanding me. I understand the distinction, I'm just asking?

Why not just start offering a legal file-sharing license, coupled with an industry-supported file sharing network? Don't change people's behavior, just provide them with a more usable environment and introduce a revenue scheme to make their actions legal and affordable.

Now that is an interesting concept. nice bit of lateral?

you're backing a scheme that is both inherently technically flawed and offers nothing to consumers. How on earth do you expect that to ever succeed?

I'm not backing anything. I'm raising issues being swept under the table with the oversimplification of a reasonably complex issue.

I can see why music?

that's a bit of a broad generalisation. some major label acts negotiated very favourable contracts for themselves, and the labels that represent them don't screw them over. others get royally shafted as in any business.

I've talked to people involved, and sighted some of the contracts and it is my?

Not that I'm in complete support of DRM, but I think consumers have been way off base on this. Since when is it our right to get something for nothing?! I don't think this?

I've talked to people involved, and sighted some of the contracts and it is my understanding that the major label deals on download revenues are generally markedly worse for the artists than those from independent labels, the difference being as much as 25% vs. 50% of retail revenue.

you're forgetting?

And not every unpermitted copy is a lost sale.

????
what do you mean? unless you're inferring that people fork up the cash for a copied disc at a later date. i'd like to see the figures on that one.

how many sales does piracy really cost you?

That I?

If only we could apply the difficult to police criteria to other industries I'd be driving a better car and eating myself into an early grave.

But those other industries aren't comparable; they involve producing physical goods. A lost sale of a physical object is just a loss – if?

you're forgetting that the major label fronts the cash for the venture. indies front the cash for theirs.

No, I think this is happening on P&D deals: if you signed away digital distribution you're liable to be fscked.

I know of at least one bedroom recording artist who was treated extremely?

No, I think this is happening on P&D deals: if you signed away digital distribution you're liable to be fscked.

I only know of the sel dub one, and andrew kept himself in a good position on that one.
The truth is artists don't need to rely on majors anymore so?

But the model is changing and I'm not sure if Madonna is the right person to point at.

Sure. She was a trophy signing and it seems Live Nation doesn't really expect to make its money back. But it's the next batch of artists it signs that will be interesting.?

That I know of,... I have actually been at peoples houses and found dubbed copies of local discs, there isn't the don't copy local loyalty we thought there was.

Gasp, and did anyone dare pick up a guitar in your presence and perform someone else's "intellectual property"?

there's a little?

captures just about all the attacks made on consumers by the music, film and software industries in the name of preventing piracy.

attacks???
thats a bit of a misleading term.
no ones forcing you to watch movies or listen to music,
there's plenty of other viable things to do with?

Is the answer then is to screw the legitimate consumers

who said that? all the points I've made have been to establish a transparent DRM rather than demonize it. no one's trying to screw the legitimate consumer and I think you know that. they're just trying to maintain a hold?

not that I'm sure he or I particularly gave a shit but the point is the acceptance of piracy is far reaching even amongst friends of friends. make of that what you will.

And I don't really give a damn. I'd rather 5000 people were listening to a pirated album?

attacks???
thats a bit of a misleading term.
no ones forcing you to watch movies or listen to music,
there's plenty of other viable things to do with your time, gardening or home renovation are popular I've heard.

And that's about the worst argument I've ever heard in support of?

attacks???
thats a bit of a misleading term.
no ones forcing you to watch movies or listen to music,

But if I do want to listen they are trying to force me to listen in a manner (and time) of their choosing. In doing so they also treat me as?

But if I do want to listen they are trying to force me to listen in a manner (and time) of their choosing.

well I don't think thats actually the objective, its more the result of not being able to implement the simple act of stopping people giving direct digital?

And that's about the worst argument I've ever heard in support of an industry.

really?

most industries have rules of use.
do you go into a petrol station, fill up then decide to drive off and not pay.
do you pick something up from a dairy and walk out the?

And I don't really give a damn. I'd rather 5000 people were listening to a pirated album than 25 bought it.

you say that now the label isn't your day job, but casting your mind back to the early eighties there's a hungry record label owner who might answer differently,

I'm not only in an up-and-coming band, so to speak, but have been doing my solo stuff for many years now. I started using the internet to distribute/promote my?

I mean, Real Groovy has been gouging customers for some time, but does everyone actually realise by how much?

RG offer a service over & above just buying a record. If you know the album you want, especially if its a big name one, you can walk into the Warehouse and?

you say that now the label isn't your day job, but casting your mind back to the early eighties there's a hungry record label owner who might answer differently

dunno, its a fine line. My primary focus was always on the band. We lost money on just about every record?

I'd still have rather had my records in homes than not.

sure, of course, but you're not saying you'd happily give away 'how bizarre'. Its not so much the point of making a living even, its getting enough money to cover the next album, although I'm sure you're in a?

the LEDs for example, you'll get a blank look at the Warehouse, but RG will likely know who you are talking about

funnily enough that was the band that got me the blank stares at RG last June.

RG is still a store staffed by fans for fans but from?

Why bother with DRM when CDs don't have it?

I think the idea is to have it in cds too. its in dvds.
They've tried a couple of times in cds, badly, one versions was easily defeated with a felt tip pen. others rely on you installing some bogus software?

sure, of course, but you're not saying you'd happily give away 'how bizarre'.

Which, if I'm not speaking out of turn, wasn't released as a single in the US. You'd still have your publishing revenue, and I think you'd still be able to sell the album.

But more to the?

sure, of course, but you're not saying you'd happily give away 'how bizarre'.

Funnily enough I was thinking the other day that, despite that being far and away the most successful record I've ever released, and it being a record I was very closely involved with on every level, its?

Which, if I'm not speaking out of turn, wasn't released as a single in the US. You'd still have your publishing revenue, and I think you'd still be able to sell the album.

Indeed but it was the end of single era in the US, By about 1997 they were?

Anyway, thanks sincerely Rob for being such a game contrarian. It's an interesting thread.

no problem, paul and finn came up with a couple of really interesting slants on the convo too.
its not like there's anything we can do about it as individuals, us individually not downloading music on?

its the one, for a variety of reasons, I feel least passionate about.

but one that enabled you to do other things you did feel passionate about? maybe not but definitely a reward for your years of being your own nz on air funding body. and hopefully you got to?

nothing directly to do with me that one....

sorry, I was thinking 3 the hard way album 2

sorry, I was thinking 3 the hard way album 2

Ironically the one I band on MTV Asia last week. Aside from OMC and Supergroove they seem to be the one that some programmer there likes and often plays late at night.

As an aside, I heard Supergroove twice again?

"Ironically the one NZ band I saw on MTV last week"

ipods come with 40 GB drives, enough for?

I decided against buying the new Amy Winehouse album (or at least the re-release with bonus CD) at Real Groovy where they were charging $36.99 for it – or $39.99 for what looked to be an 'import' of the same thing...

...and a wise decision it was too. $26.99 at?

I've just found out an old girlfriend has just sold her internet business for $50 million. That's **US** dollars, baby!

I haven't seen her since the 80's when she moved to the US (and got married!) but I must look her up ....__

I'd better?

And how would you have felt if 25 ppl paid to get into one of your raves and 5000 just snuck in?

a) I've never put on a "rave", and b) if I had there would be no long term benefit to either myself or my artist if they had,?

1. Wanting the world to fit how you expect to make money.
2. Expecting to make money off how the world wants to be.

One of those concepts?

They actually were quite big here, unlike all the other ones who just pretended to be but weren't. If I want to impress someone, I say I know Supergroove and it works everytime, anywhere in SEA.

and in germany too. I was staying with some kraut friends and they played?

And how would you have felt if 25 ppl paid to get into one of your raves and 5000 just snuck in?

a) I've never put on a "rave", and b) if I had there would be no long term benefit to either myself or my artist if they had,?

robbery, dude, enough with the "theft" story, it's called breach of copyright.

haha, sorry, if it helps any its theft when I do it too. The term Breach of copyright just takes the sting off it for us but by law its the same thing, actually its seen as something?

ie its ok to invade someones country if there are a lot of people doing it.

That is an utterly ridiculous comparison.

I remember... objecting to... the american system of tipping wait staff in restaurants.

I think it's a dumb system too, but I hope you tipped. They don't get?

you're hoping there is some long term benefit, that some decent person somewhere down the line is going to buy a copy

Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

I would be willing to lay money that a band with no DRM that gets its music listened to by lotsa folks?

That is an utterly ridiculous comparison.

its not a comparison

I think it's a dumb system too, but I hope you tipped. They don't get a living wage otherwise.

is it my fault that they chose not to install the drm equivalent in their choice of employer. if they want?

I would be willing to lay money that a band with no DRM that gets its music listened to by lotsa folks will earn way more than one with the strong DRM solution, so only folks who pay get to hear the music.

you'll be able to research your theory?

you're hoping there is some long term benefit, that some decent person somewhere down the line is going to buy a copy, but realistically its like someone sneaking into your gig and letting everyone they know sneak in too, and all the people they know,

Actually my advice to a?

Actually my advice to a band last year was to take your best song,

was this a new band without a profile trying to get their name out there.
There's a difference between that and an established act.
also of note its a move back to a singles way of?

its not a comparison

Yes, it is. You're saying that societies are more or less ethical than other societies (problematic in itself), and drawing an equivalence between starting an unjust war and music piracy, by saying that they're part of some sort of continuum. I call bullshit. Sorry.

under the?

was this a new band without a profile trying to get their name out there.

doesn't matter. Especially in this current you are only as good as your last hit minefield now. There is so much chaff with YouTube and every other Web 2.0 network out there, its impossible to?

its not a comparison

Yes, it is. You're saying that societies are more or less ethical than other societies (problematic in itself), and drawing an equivalence between starting an unjust war and music piracy, by saying that they're part of some sort of continuum. I call bullshit. Sorry.

I'm not?

But most people don't stiff a waitress, because then she starves

or she has to get a real job where the income isn't a lottery

or her employer will stop skimping on the wages and reflect the cost of the whole meal service in his prices,

or most people will?

if america was still the 50's america of smiling geeks and rescuing puppies

That's a misconception. The US in the 1950s was actually quite an anxious place, simmering with paranoia, violence and discontent. The US has also been invading places it wants something from since before it was even a?

Downloading mp3s' isn't going to overlap with the 'killing people

me either but I didn't say killing people, I said invading and taking stuff.
and I also said it was partly bull shit (your words), a notion a concept not yet formed if you will, feel free to toy with?

under the piracy model I should be able to sneak out the door without leaving a tip and hold my head up high, right?

People are amazingly bad with analogies.

Piracy, in terms of coffee shops and their employees is like ... you stay home and __make your own coffee__?

Piracy, in terms of coffee shops and their employees

but stealing the ingredients, ie not paying for the coffee.

Respect for the law? Not all laws are equally worthy of respect, especially the ones that are out of touch with how most people live their lives.

which is one of the themes we've been discussing.

how society as a group have decided that its ok to use the product?

And how would you have felt if 25 ppl paid to get into one of your raves and 5000 just snuck in?

ROFL (literally)....Dudes, raves started and got popular 'cos lots of people and a handful of speakers snuck into empty warehouses and fields and danced to music all night?

ROFL (literally)....Dudes, raves started and got popular 'cos lots of people and a handful of speakers snuck into empty warehouses and fields and danced to music all night long.......FOR FREE!

Really? who paid for the massive sound systems and lighting rigs or did you all huddle round a ghetto blaster?

So one option would be to charge everybody around?

Really? who paid for the massive sound systems and lighting rigs or did you all huddle round a ghetto blaster and a 60 watt light bulb back in the day?

Back in the day, the electric gypsy's and the crusties owned the sound systems. They made their money from ....__other?

I note that the RIANZ figures deliberately exclude digital formats. I would be very interested to see the churn/uptake for Emusic etc.

Hands up who would pay more for an emusic subscription if the catalogue grew ?

me me me me !

but the MO revolved around value for the punter.

they changed that pretty quickly though didn't they. when someone figured out how much money they could make. It still amazes me how much people are prepared to pay for a dj gig which has less production costs ad people to?

Back in the day, the electric gypsy's and the crusties owned the sound systems. They made their money from ....other commodities...

sweet so your loss leader was the cover charge and the organisers made their money off selling other 'substances'

how'd you go about filtering money back to the music?

put together a playlist online based on the Flying Nun catalogue for example, have it burned on to a CD with a nice piccie and delivered to a friend ?

Interesting idea. access to a massive library of music, you comp it up like you would a mix tape and?

As usual you miss the point

I think I made my point, you obviously got it.
I know what point you were trying to make but you're theorising that consumption in the name of fun excuses obligation to recompense,
the people who had the obligation to recompense in this case?

i) These guys weren't all dealers, some were anarchists, some were disaffected musicians (where do you think the PA came from). Most times this just paid for their stuff. You're right I wouldn't have shared a house with any of them.?

No you don't get this at all do you:

why would you think that?
can't you tell when someones taking the piss?
I thought you'd get it when I suggested drug dealers declare their income to the ird but then you may well have been the only one not getting?

At present they're taking 40% of the income (roughly a 65% markup

Well now there's your low hanging fruit right there.

Why don't you sort those economics out before crippling my hardware, criminalising my software and snooping around my Internet?

Thanks.

Why don't you sort those economics out before crippling my hardware, criminalising my software and snooping around my Internet?

why don't you do it?
I'm not here to fix things, just to make you feel guilty

well so long as the dealers made money, that's the main thing

Its not really that simple, since (back then anyway, less so now) most of what they played publicly was designed and produced to be played publicly.

twelve inches of wax. mostly produced and sold in the knowledge, indeed?

I guess my point is they were essentially pre-paid performance royalties.....

not quite how it works. if they're designed to be played in arenas then their target market is arenas, ie not on your laptop with itunes.
I'm wondering how many people actually bought these records for home listening as?

I'm wondering how many people actually bought these records for home listening as much of that music only makes sense when you're tripping anyway, its dead boring straight.

its a matter of opinion and the tens of millions of mix CDs sold over the years, the success of albums by?

Myself I listen to so called club / electronic music at home, in the car etc, not in any way exclusively but whenever the mood takes me.

straight?

Yes, and after that they could strap themselves to the nearest pig and fly to the next rave...

what's the emoticon for irony?

All those years in the closet but now he can be who he wants to be ....

hopefully you're a good friend of simon's cos that's some?

hopefully you're a good friend of simon's cos that's some pretty personal jabs to make to a respected stranger.
my question was regarding the need for mind altering substances to appreciate the finer points of 15 mins of drum machines and roaring synth lines

In any sense of the word,?

And Ubud doesn't have a beach anyway.....

I know – it wasn't meant as a clue that everything else I said was BS as well ...

hopefully you're a good friend of Simon's cos that's some pretty personal jabs to make to a respected stranger.

Wow! I wasn't making a 'jab' I?

" it was meant as a clue that everything else I said was BS as well ..."

But to be clear: My apologies to anyone & everyone who was offended.

Much as I appreciate Rob standing up for my (?) honour, I was amused...absolutely no offence taken or presumed meant ;)

And just to be clear, Its been many a decade since I've driven under anything approaching mind?

I don't think that we're going to see an increase in gig going though, the kids have got other thing on their minds, (playstation, supped up cars and herbal highs) and the elderly take offense at the volume.

Russell, I think he's talking about you ;)

(roughan is hardly unskilled but he is obviously out of touch with the wants of the audience)

No, I rather think that after 30 or so years at it, he's lost a bit of hearing and over-compensates for it, at everyone else's expense. Common problem.

Russell, I think he's talking about you ;)

Thanks stephen, you've unsubtled me

No, I rather think that after 30 or so years at it, he's lost a bit of hearing and over-compensates for it, at everyone else's expense. Common problem.

There's a few issues that can lead to unpleasantly loud mixes.
if it was at the kings arms then the mixer position?

Really though you shouldn't be going to live concerts without hearing protection these days.

I really don't get the whole loud live music thing, never have. I'm not such a massive fan of live music to start with – I won't just pay to hear a band unless I already?

Paying 10, 30, 90 dollars to have my hearing damaged for a couple of hours, when I could buy the CD for $25

its a valid point and one which keeps a number of people away from gigs.
The problem with keeping the volume down while attempting a balanced mix?

The problem with keeping the volume down while attempting a balanced mix is you are stuck with being as loud as the loudest instument off the stage. this is commonly the cymbals or snare drum.

Yes those are good points. It's big venues where they've miked up all the drums?

I remember that Karen Hunter tour, Kyle Matthews do you think that that good atmosphere you remember from ARC (as it used to be) can be recreated by pushing play on your home entertainment system?

Oh yes, the live music experience is definitely different from the studio recording.

But lots?

Doc's ProPlugs

Cheaper than the molded things, better than those horrible plastic spiky things or the lumps of foam that make you feel you just got off an international flight from Atlantis...

Myself I listen to so called club / electronic music at home, in the car etc, not in any way exclusively but whenever the mood takes me.

straight?

Depends what your definition of dance/club music is. For me, hard-house/trance is less likely to float my boat but beats and?

Listening to the Metro Area CD while cruising through the Lewis Pass of the Southern Alps is highly recommended, makes perfect sense.

Just as Burial went rather well spinning along the Bypass into Seminyak this afternoon.

Peter, your examples work for me perfectly too. No chemicals required.

makes perfect sense

Sarcasm?

gorgeous big gay house music from Ian Pooley, Carl Craig, David Holmes, Adam Freeland and a load of others makes home and car listening eminently possible without external stimulants.

"big gay house"???????

Just as Burial went rather well spinning along the Bypass into Seminyak this afternoon.

Ooh yes, Burial is on my list to grab at some point. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we're doing the big family OE later this year so all our dosh is going into savings and all the fun?

"big gay house"???????

?????? ?

Burial

Can I just say, and only slightly on-topic, that I've found Burial to be a lot of hype and no substance. Quite boring, actually, and attracting attention away from other acts who IMO are much more worthy of it: Kode9, for example, whose recent album **__Memories of the Future__**?

or maybe the lack of substance is the point, no thinking required?

No, it's just different music.

I think there's a little something to my point without being rude.
The repetitive and simplified nature of much dance music means you don't have to think too much about the deep and meaningful lyrics or complex chord structures, which probably makes it very good for dancing too, or driving?

I think there's a little something to my point without being rude.
The repetitive and simplified nature of much dance music means you don't have to think too much about the deep and meaningful lyrics or complex chord structures, which probably makes it very good for dancing too, or driving?

No one's going to bite, are they? Please god no...

ha! they did and intelligently too. just cos I don't personally like dance music doesn't mean I can't discuss and understand its appeal to others.

I cast my mind back to being 16 and very VERY focused on what I?

or maybe the lack of substance is the point, no thinking required?

No, it's just different music.

Just noting, possibly tangentially, that over ten years ago (!) on the Elvis Costello discussion list, Simon and I had a very similar argument with what the world now calls rockists. We, of?

"big gay house"???????

?????? ?

sorry for being obtuse, I wasnt sure what angle to attack that phrase from....I am not clear on what gay house is (not even gettting into the minefield of sexuality discrimination...). My initial reaction is that it would describe the high energy poppy dance music?