Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Bishop Brian: It's worse than you think

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  • Gareth Ward,

    "I don't believe a Maori could have written that"

    Ummm, huh?

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1727 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."

    1 Corinthians 15:33 (King James Version)

    That is all.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    The MPs all agreed it was a matter of electoral reality – there are 10,000 votes for the having in the Destiny Church membership.

    OK, I guess this is a quasi-Godwin question to ask but I'm perfectly serious. If barking moonbat Kyle Chapman has ten thousand racist douche canoes at his beck and call we'd see these four (or more acceptably melanin-deficient substitutes) fronting to their wannabe Nuremberg Rally because, hey... it's election year and a vote's a vote?

    If the answer is no, why not?

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • andin,

    and, if their faces were any signal to their feelings, got hauled in quite some way past their comfort zones.

    Yep, Tho' I want to know if Tau saw god, or is he just uncomfortable with being touched by other men? (in a purely non sexual way of course)

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report Reply

  • TracyMac,

    Destiny has helped people get out of the gutter, and men become fathers. Yeah, in exactly the same way the Salvation Army guilts money out of people to help those they only deem worthy of helping, which, if you did not know, does not include queers. Nor do they refrain from trying to interfere in national politics, beginning with lobbying against the Homosexual Law Reform bill in the 80s.

    I am grateful every single day for state social welfare, which allows people to not be beholden to right-wing nutcase organisations who only extend their "charity" to select groups. I just regret the fact social welfare has been so eroded as to allow these nutcase groups a toehold into vulnerable peoples' lives.

    (Just to clarify, not ranting against what Russell has said; I'm just disgusted at elected representatives attending a religious function in anything other than a private or ceremonial capacity.)

    Canberra, West Island • Since Nov 2006 • 701 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    You’ll notice that an American preacher joins in. That’s “Bishop” Eddie Long, another huckster who has long been praised by Tamaki as his “spiritual father” and mentor.

    Perhaps the most useful perspective I have ever had on Tamaki was provided by the lecturer of a class I took on mythology, who compared him to mythological tricksters - the sort who change their appearance, and their words, to match whichever audience they're facing. And - mostly - get away with it.

    It's entirely probable that he believes what he says, but setting aside the vile nature of much of it, he's done extremely well financially out of the Destiny Church, and that money largely comes from people who don't have much to start with. Some of it goes back to the community, but a lot doesn't. That's the really unforgivable bit. And it's the bit that gets much less play than his tired misogyny, homophobia, and delusions of political grandeur. It shouldn't.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    The answer is "no, because that's Brash's turf, so those votes are already locked in for National/ACT"

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    He describes Islam as “that devilish thing” and the construction of a Buddhist temple in Botany Downs as “opening a door from Hell”, and then goes on to link both with “immigrants … who won’t change their demon religions” and are “pouring in” to New Zealand as a result of a “demon” looking around the world for openings where God has been pushed out. They are, he claims, bringing with them the economic and social degradation that their wicked faiths have wrought on their countries of origin.

    You're right, quoting the Bish's migrant-bashing would have made for some more interesting on-air wriggling.

    Did you spot the bit in passing towards the end where Richard Lewis says that by attending the pollies were "endorsing" Destiny? Campbell seemed to miss his chance to follow up on that.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to TracyMac,

    Destiny has helped people get out of the gutter, and men become fathers.

    I'd like to see journos ask about why the 'church' have had funding applications for their programmes turned down - those agencies must have reasons.

    And it's the bit that gets much less play than his tired misogyny, homophobia, and delusions of political grandeur. It shouldn't.

    Totally. If they want to claim to be a social service agency, then let's see them examined as one.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Joshua Drummond,

    Thanks for this, Russell. There's a lot here that needed to be said - and, as far as I can tell, wasn't being said anywhere else.

    Since Nov 2006 • 119 posts Report Reply

  • Jo Malone, in reply to TracyMac,

    You're a little behind the times in your thoughts on the work the Sallies do, and perhaps a little stuck in the 80s too when talking about their public stand against the Homosexual Reform Act in 86. They've moved on - and so should you. Read up on their discussion papers about homosexuality and the behind-the-scenes history of those Sallies who supported the HRA and all it stands for.

    Auckland • Since Jun 2011 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    I'd like to see journos ask about why the 'church' have had funding applications for their programmes turned down

    On morning report Lewis maintained he hadn't the faintest.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Lyndon Hood,

    Lewis maintained he hadn't the faintest

    yeah right

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    He also said he wished that people got past certain perceptions of the church, so my guess is that, he knows full well. Apparently they've been turned down "hundreds of times".

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Christopher Dempsey, in reply to Lyndon Hood,

    I’d like to see journos ask about why the ‘church’ have had funding applications for their programmes turned down

    On morning report Lewis maintained he hadn’t the faintest.

    Put very simply public money comes from taxpayers. Public money is subject to the Human Rights Act in the sense public money cannot be used in a manner that discriminates against gays / women etc. Given the virulent homophobia and misogyny of DC it's perhaps not surprising that sober and sensible public servants turn them down.

    Anglican's don't get turned down because generally, the don't breach Human Rights. Nor do the Presbyterians - generally - but it's a little dicier with the Sallies and the Catholics.

    The other thing is this; which politician wants to be on the receiving end of a newspaper report linking their approval of funding with the discovery of child abuse (smacking etc) or wife beating in a DC run space?

    Parnell / Tamaki-Auckland… • Since Sep 2008 • 659 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston,

    Destiny has helped people get out of the gutter, and men become fathers.

    Yeah right - out of the gutter and into a "toxic ideological cult " to quote Morgan Godfery . I rather have the gutter.
    Destiny Church members in some areas seem closely aligned with the Open Home Foundation a christian social services group that places kids in foster care, "good christian" foster care that is. There have been many reports of child abuse by Destiny foster carers , here, here and and here.

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • Christopher Dempsey, in reply to Jo Malone,

    You’re a little behind the times in your thoughts on the work the Sallies do, and perhaps a little stuck in the 80s too when talking about their public stand against the Homosexual Reform Act in 86. They’ve moved on – and so should you. Read up on their discussion papers about homosexuality and the behind-the-scenes history of those Sallies who supported the HRA and all it stands for.

    Perhaps they have. But it took until oh, 2006 or so for them to partially apologise for their behaviour in 1986.

    Parnell / Tamaki-Auckland… • Since Sep 2008 • 659 posts Report Reply

  • Raymond A Francis, in reply to Christopher Dempsey,

    It would seem to me that firstly the SA were divided on their postion in1986 , they have apologised for that and wish to build bridges
    I am not sure just what else you want but I for one am happy to give to them as I have a gut feeling that if I was in the gutter they of all people would be prepared to reach down

    45' South • Since Nov 2006 • 578 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Jo Malone,

    . Read up on their discussion papers about homosexuality and the behind-the-scenes history of those Sallies who supported the HRA and all it stands for.

    So far behind the bloody scenes they exited the theatre and ended up in the middle of the parking lot. I'm sorry, but folks like Campbell Roberts neither deserve nor will receive any credit for their moral cowardice and silence when it really mattered.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Christopher Dempsey,

    Perhaps they have. But it took until oh, 2006 or so for them to partially apologise for their behaviour in 1986.

    Just so people don’t have to search down the page of the Rainbow Wellington newsletters, here’s the relevant part:

    September 2010

    We were recently asked about the current relationship between our communities and the Salvation Army. As you know, the Army organised the infamous petition against homosexual law reform in the 1980s, an act which damaged relations for many years, so that many gay people still feel unable to contribute to the SA’s fundraising efforts. So the board wrote to them.

    A rather partial apology, or rather statement of regret in 2006 did little to clear the air. Although there has been no official statement since then, the extensive reply we have received from their National Director of Social Services and Social Policy, Campbell Roberts, goes considerably further in an attempt to heal any remaining rift. Interesting points in the letter include:

    “The SA currently accepts the law and works happily with it. The SA has no current official position on decriminalisation, Our present international leader General Shaw Clifton … has written “we stand neutral to legislation that seeks to address issues of human sexuality or of sexual behaviour, knowing that deeper issues are at stake that legislation does not even begin to recognise. We neither encourage nor discourage the decriminalisation of sexual behaviour between consenting adults.”

    Mr Roberts noted that the SA supported the removal of legal impediments that discriminated against homosexual relationships at the time of the Civil Union legislation, and confirmed a number of further points:

    “The international SA did not support the actions of NZSA leaders in 1986 and correspondence exists in which they recommend no opposition to the Bill and counselled the NZ [branch] against becoming involved in opposition”.

    ‘The SA senior leadership in 1986 were very divided on the actions of the Territorial Commander that involved the SA in opposition to decriminalisation”.

    “The SA in NZ would wish to be as reconciled to the gay community as the gay community felt appropriate”.

    “We would see the right of homosexual people to be protected by law without discrimination as a very important tenet of New Zealand law”.

    “The SA has gay people in its congregations and employment. It works with a significant number of gay people in its social programmes. I am not aware of any complaints from gay people who have felt discriminated, devalued or not accepted by the organisation while participating within SA programmes or activities. The SA acknowledges that its action in 1986 were unjustified and deeply hurt gay people and the gay community.”

    “I would be keen to learn further from the gay community on ways in which you feel we can further build bridges of understanding and respect to gay people”.

    The RW Board certainly intends to follow up on this detailed, frank and positive response from the Salvation Army, and a further meeting has already taken place.

    If it’s good enough for Rainbow Wellington, it’s good enough for me. I think it’s only decent to acknowledge such positive change.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    So far behind the bloody scenes they exited the theatre and ended up in the middle of the parking lot. I’m sorry, but folks like Campbell Roberts neither deserve nor will receive any credit for their moral cowardice and silence when it really mattered.

    See above. No one seems to be looking for a medal.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    Bishop Brian is the Godfather (sic) of NZ's megachurch/McChurch industry, which is fundamentally the Nouveau Riche dogma with an altar, and has few if any of the saving graces of normal denominations like Anglicans & Presbyterians. Family Fist, For the Sake of Our Right to Hit, and Out of Focus on the Family et al aren't too distantly related.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant, in reply to Sacha,

    I'd like to see journos ask about why the 'church' have had funding applications for their programmes turned down - those agencies must have reasons.

    Give me an idea of who they've asked, and I can OIA it.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • Richard Aston,

    @ Idiot Savant
    MSD (CYFS and FACS), Min Of Education ( private school funding) , Whanau Ora ( MSD)
    Also I notice some of their branches have been de registered by the Charities Commission , notably : Dunedin, Gisborne, Porirua and Kaitaia .

    Northland • Since Nov 2006 • 510 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler,

    And yes, I know that Destiny has done a great job of helping people get up out of the gutter, making men fathers again.

    I know they were a great help to my uncle when his on-again, off-again partner died, and he was left bringing up her kids and their kids while dealing with (very public) accusations that he had been responsible for her death (which he wasn't). Which leaves me to wonder why some more tolerable, mainstream group couldn't give him that support?

    My guess is that when you hit rock bottom, and it seems that even the things you had going for you - your family and other support networks - have failed to prevent it from happening, anyone who comes along with the messages:
    "What you have has failed you; perhaps you need to try something really different"
    and
    "It's not your fault - The System Is Rigged Against You"
    will seem like a real lifeline.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 856 posts Report Reply

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