Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Democracy Night

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  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    I can't see them surviving if they continue to openly act in the interests of wealthy Maori.

    Acting in the interests of the wealthy seems to be working just fine for National (until the next election if they don't construct/enable more coalition prospects on the right). Mana provides a different Maori voice.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16493 posts Report Reply

  • HenryB,

    Ah, I see: snap

    Palmerston North • Since Sep 2008 • 106 posts Report Reply

  • Jimmy Southgate, in reply to slarty,

    I honestly think many people who voted National thought that "nice Mr Key" wouldn't really go through with the sales...

    Having spoken to my father - who as far as I know has always been a true rural National Party supporter - I think there may be reasonable support for selling the shares into SuperFund / KiwiSaver schemes amongst his part of the populace.

    Wellingtown • Since Nov 2006 • 100 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Ross Mason,

    How about “Ma Pa” then.

    Oh those Mom and Pop investors...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 4685 posts Report Reply

  • slarty, in reply to DeepRed,

    True. I mentioned this to a (grey, white, female) stranger on the ferry just now. She was horrified and started mumbling about a war. It's not the first time I've heard my elders and betters say a civil war is looming. Where do they get their brainwashing? Or do I exist in a parallel universe?

    I still trust Iwi much more that the old white men.

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to HenryB,

    Couldn’t agree more. I shudder at the thought that Darien Fenton can make it to 18 on the Labour list and Carmel Sepuloni and Iain Lees-Galloway to 24 and 37 respectively. Both have done really well in the electorates they had to fight for.

    I know a couple of longtime Labour activists who basically sat this one out because of the list and because they didn't like Goff and Little. They both also mentioned Fenton.

    I do think that there's a reckoning coming for the unions' privileged place in Labour Party affairs, because at the moment they don't deserve that place.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18712 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Oh those Mom and Pop investors

    zing

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16493 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    and there we go again.

    Oh dear lord, that was exactly the opposite of the meaning of that sentence. Mind you, as far as I can tell your main desire here is to snark about people who are actually putting work in on the ground, so you may as well go etc. etc.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I do think that there's a reckoning coming for the unions' privileged place in Labour Party affairs, because at the moment they don't deserve that place.

    They used to justify it partly by on-ground campaign support. Wonder how that's faring?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16493 posts Report Reply

  • slarty, in reply to Jimmy Southgate,

    I think there may be reasonable support for selling the shares into SuperFund / KiwiSaver schemes

    They do realise that this is a fantasy don't they? Unless we generate $7Bn of 'new cash' from the sales even Treasury admit it makes no commercial sense (the interest on borrowing about $7Bn is covered by dividends from the assets being sold).

    For a start, the Super fund (that one set up by Cullen in the face of demands for tax cuts that is currently saving our collective arses :) is included on the balance sheet projections, so any transfer of ownership would have no net effect.

    And the whole point of Kiwisaver funds (IHMO quite rightly) is that they aren't politically driven beyond the incentive to participate. If they were they are effectively just plain old fashioned NZ Super - and that will never survive as a contributory scheme under that structure

    Like I say, parallel universe where the normal laws of time and money appear not to exist.

    Since Nov 2006 • 290 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    your main desire here is to snark about people who are actually putting work in on the ground

    whatever

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16493 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Eh, I am unsure how fair it is to blame the unions (it is suspiciously close to the gaggle thing.)

    I do think that the list process needs to be rethought. I think that the list ranking should be opened up, and as far as possible transparency and internal democracy emphasised. I think the current method of regional lists followed by secret conclave doesn't work, and can't work.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Sacha,

    They used to justify it partly by on-ground campaign support. Wonder how that’s faring?

    Not well in New Plymouth, I gather.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18712 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    I also think that there are real issues with the party organisation, in that there's a massive split between members and activists. Is the branch system the best way to run a political party these days? Is the sectoral system effective? (I think the sectors have to take some of the blame for the list failure.)

    Since Jul 2008 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    whatever

    I'm not joking. As far as I can tell that was your main contribution to a coherent conversation I was having with someone else. I am really quite pissed off about it, as you totally misread my words in order to get a rather cheap attack in.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1321 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I do think that there’s a reckoning coming for the unions’ privileged place in Labour Party affairs, because at the moment they don’t deserve that place.

    Across the Tasman, Mark Latham had some similar wisdom for his own party.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4158 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to BenWilson,

    The question on my mind is how it will be seen by the long line of hui they have said they will be attending prior to making a firm decision.

    Well, it might be useful if the diversity-challenged lamestream media went and found out, instead of the usual line up of (mostly) white middle-aged, middle-class men pontificating out of their privileged arses. Att least Maori Television includes some actual reporting and genuinely diverse Maori opinions among the editorializing.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11867 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    Eh, I think the idea that the left (really Labour) needs to indulge in broad soul searching is wrong.

    Interesting thoughts, although I don't think that's really what was meant by:

    The left needs to talk, listen, argue and develop an alternative, more collective and communal vision for the country.

    A soul search is by definition virtually the opposite of this process - soul searching is looking inside for your own deep convictions. Talk/listen/argue is an engagement process that reaches out. I think they've done enough soul searching, agreed.

    I have to say that I don't agree that the left broadly failed in this 3 years. If they had managed to oust National after only one term, after a landslide victory to Key, it would have been an incredible achievement. As it was, the election is held by a matter of a few votes, that's a remarkable accomplishment too, although I think most of that was an own-goal by Key giving Winston his resurrection.

    I'm not actually sure whether Goff's head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now. I got the impression he's finally learning how to land blows on Key. If there's anyone who really is natural at that, though, let them come forth!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8317 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Keir Leslie,

    you totally misread my words

    Sorry, not in any way intentional. You seemed to be moving from a discussion of 'the left' to an in-depth examination of the Labour party. That they are not the same thing seems highly relevant (even though I appreciate clarity about responsibility) - but please do elaborate on how what you said is completely different. I obviously missed something.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16493 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    For me, the key message is to get started on the work now, and keep at it- not in grand ways, but as many small ways as possible.
    It's like unionism, in that respect. I understand people feeling the unions haven't done a lot for Labour. But kicking them off the bus seems wrong. The unions haven't done a lot for themselves in NZ lately, because they are mostly a lot smaller and weaker than they were.
    At a local level in my union (TEU) the paid (part-time) organisers are very busy- and all the rest of the work is done by volunteers- generally the same small group of volunteers.
    Expanding that engagement is hard in good times. I suspect- I fear- the engagement will go up considerably in the next three years, and we'll see a lot more militant unionists- and union-bashing.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 1469 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to slarty,

    a good long duuump...

    Like I say, parallel universe where the normal laws of time and money appear not to exist.

    No, no, I'm sure it is an actual perpetual motion funding device... honest!

    Much like last years economagical profits and losses of asset 'sales' (dams n stuff) between State owned power companies

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 4685 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell,

    Yeah, enough of the soul-searching :) Save that for idle moments.

    I’m not actually sure whether Goff’s head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now. I got the impression he’s finally learning how to land blows on Key. If there’s anyone who really is natural at that, though, let them come forth!

    Amen! Strong, coherent rhetorical opposition in the house would be bloody lovely.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 1469 posts Report Reply

  • tussock,

    The average MP does about 4 terms, so every 4th seat on the list should be a fresh face; then no matter how many you lose or gain you've always got proportional untainted faces. Ideally the older MPs should be retired from the list to marginal electorates, and they can stay as long as they hold them. Makes for an automatic clean-out every time you score badly.


    But selling the dams to the retirement fund and ACC is just fiddling the books. Net loss of government assets in exchange for temporarily lower debt increases; they're just selling their foreign shares of big companies rather than the dams. Which would be awesome if they'd invest it in something better than irrigation at about 1-2% return.

    The Greens may be able to help them there, fortunately. Renewables, FTW.

    Since Nov 2006 • 364 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed, in reply to BenWilson,

    I’m not actually sure whether Goff’s head on a plate would be quite the thing Labour need now. I got the impression he’s finally learning how to land blows on Key. If there’s anyone who really is natural at that, though, let them come forth!

    Goff is likely to step down as Labour leader, but he could still remain on its front bench in a mentor role for the new broom.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4158 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    You seemed to be moving from a discussion of ‘the left’ to an in-depth examination of the Labour party. That they are not the same thing seems highly relevant (even though I appreciate clarity about responsibility) – but please do elaborate on how what you said is completely different.

    Because the Greens don't need to do any soul searching: they did really well! The Mana Party likewise. The left actually did reasonably well overall. The Labour Party did badly though. So if there's anyone that needs to think about what happened and why, it's the Labour Party. And it is important not to start fretting about the `left'. The left's just fine. It's the Labour Party that's in trouble.

    Since Jul 2008 • 1321 posts Report Reply

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