the long-unreported story of Fonterra farmers' dirty streams

Do you just mean on TV?
We locals have been being educated by our local paper. For example
this feature in the Waikato Times

One of my university contemporaries at Waikato University has been researching a?

Do you just mean on TV?
We locals have been being educated by our local paper.

And we have the editor on the panel. But this has been going on for years, and we'll talk about why.

I don't think I'd be any less informed come Monday lunchtime if the whole slot was dumped. And, yes, I'm far from impressed with Laila Harre; and would prefer the Hooton-Trotter idiot tag-team to be restricted to the Sunday Star-Times and their collective blog (which has the novel distinction,?

Are there no decent right wing commentators who could replace him?

I've wondered this myself. There used to be. Perhaps it's a case of the smarter commentators having too much at stake?

I've wondered this myself. There used to be. Perhaps it's a case of the smarter commentators having too much at stake?

Nah, I've developed a theory about both Hooton and Trotter. They're reliably outrageous copy, and even if you think the content is a a black hole that sucks all?

And we have the editor on the panel.

Whoops. Apologies. I didn't read yesterday's PS. very well, did I?

08 Wire does its own take on the PREFU and takes a look at Farrar vs Standard on crime stats, with more argument about the ethics of implying your opponent doesn't care about rape in the comments. I do despair a bit sometimes.

Reading the latest comments, it appears that?

I've loaded the Winston Peters app. It throws out all the Asian components so the phone doesn't work.

You say my phone is part of the Gathering Asian Component Tide? Should I send some of it back?

Does anyone think a cash bribe will fix it?

I think I already?

thanks to "blog producer" Bryan Spondre, of having more civil and thoughtful comments than the actual posts).

I have to say, that Trotter's blog musings, pretty much justifiy everything the wingnuts have ever said about him.

I have to say, that Trotter's blog musings, pretty much justifiy everything the wingnuts have ever said about him.

He's been much quieter since his initial flurry of hyper-activity whereas Hooton's very active. I know I shouldn't bother, but I can't help but comment on some issues...

At the risk?

yeh, but its not all sharing the love here, take craigs first comment.

.
"Steve:Pardon me if I pull out the world?s smallest violin. "

You get back what you put in.?

Reading the latest comments, it appears that I, too, am now an enemy of the left.

Sigh ...

Do a contra deal with D.VICE (because patriotic pervs buy Kiwi-made!), send 'em the biggest dildo known to man or beast and suggest "the left" go fuck itself.

or a deep breath and a prayer for duncan. I thought you were a Christian?

PS: Also, we can still accommodate punters at tonight's recording of Media7

Russell: do you have a topic for next week as I could add a Media 7 rercording to a book launch in Auckland next Tuesday?

Reading the latest comments, it appears that I, too, am now an enemy of the left.

Sigh ...

Come home RB, you're understood and loved... seriously, Rob Salmond's done a good job trying to navigate a middle line but too many folk see life in binary terms.

I see "this" as centre, so sometimes it veers either way, that's why its a decent read. facts are fun.

I'd really like it if a centre-right version of PAS were to start up but I can't see it happening.

Seconded. A thousand times over.

I actually think it drives my political leanings too – when there is very little consistent reasoned debate coming from one side of the political?

...is the left so brain-dead that the media can't do better than Chris ("Winston is the victim of the political equivalent of gang rape") Trotter for a house lefty?

He wouldn't be my choice – we (on the left) have multitudes to choose from. And you, who apparently attempt to?

I see "this" as centre, so sometimes it veers either way, that's why its a decent read. facts are fun.

I mostly agree and find the posts and commentary here unbelievably informed and insightful. I don't mean it as a criticism, more a comment on the lack of calm, reasoned?

You get back what you put in. I think the rape smear was poor but so is davids consistent abuse of stats to scare the shit out of our fellow citizens.

Oh, no, Jeremy let's not even try to draw any kind of equivalence here. The sad thing is that?

At the risk of offending our host, I'd really like it if a centre-right version of PAS were to start up but I can't see it happening.

That would be cool. I can't join a discussion at Kiwiblog without receiving direct, personal abuse these days, and it would be nice?

Russell: do you have a topic for next week as I could add a Media 7 rercording to a book launch in Auckland next Tuesday?

As things stand, we're looking at the crime-and-the-media topic. It'd be great if you could join us. The recordings start at about 7pm, but we'd?

I think it's just another voice....and to be honest in New Zeland there's not that many new voices getting profile.

The?

I can't join a discussion at Kiwiblog without receiving direct, personal abuse these days, and it would be nice if there was a place to go and discuss ideas with a different crowd.

I do think it reflects poorly on DPF that he allows so much idiocy to persist. Some?

who do you choose as a house middley?

I'm perfectly happy to be Therese Arseneau's hag-fag. :) I've no idea what her personal politics are, she's always had something thoughtful and insightful to say, and (quite important) when she doesn't know something she doesn't try and bullshit through.

Why do you need another blog? Haven't we already got what you seem to be missing?

My perspective on that is not that we need another blog per se, but rather fewer blogs of better quality where meaningful discussion might occur. I'd not mind if the very few calm commenters?

]]> Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:02:14 +1300 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-dial-o-for-obama/?p=72391#post72391 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-dial-o-for-obama/?p=72391#post72391

Take your pick or ignore them both but both dreams are fading.

Actually the trade union movement is still very much alive and playing a constructive role in public affairs – focusing of course on workers' rights, but also on productivity and skills and many other areas of common interest.?

The reason steve and cameron get angry is because they see injustice.

So did William Wilberforce (who comes to mind because I've got William Hague's biography on the overloaded bedside table), and he managed to avoid being a crass turd while fighting the long, hard and uncertain battle for abolition?

I'm perfectly happy to be Therese Arseneau's hag-fag. :) I've no idea what her personal politics are, she's always had something thoughtful and insightful to say, and (quite important) when she doesn't know something she doesn't try and bullshit through.

I hope you're sitting down Craig. We are in COMPLETE?

So did William Wilberforce (who comes to mind because I've got William Hague's biography on the overloaded bedside table), and he managed to avoid being a crass turd while fighting the long, hard and uncertain battle for abolition of the slave trade in England.

More to the point, would he?

And when you're as flip-floppingly centrist as me it would be nice to?

so is there a centre? surely that guy needs to start writing. The truth is
not that hard to agree on, do we need to filter everything through two
special groups balanced perfectly off an?

sure, i realise it exists and I'm sure works hard .....but wages are small, costs are up....its 2008. Bargaining is pitiful in New Zealand.

Gareth, I'm not sure there's anywhere in the world where trade unions control prices, but wages here, since the start of the ERA, have kept pace?

hence some anger and the obvious question, what is the solution?

I wonder if they do? It seems to me that centre is called centre left almost to insuiate that factchecking?

verbwrangle: I believe it was Jeremy that raised that point...

Gareth: Sorry.

"it's just that during the ECA they fell by so much it's hard to catch up now."

hence some anger and the obvious question, what is the solution?

Jeremy: Oh, I dunno. Revolution?

hardnose , i hate that word. I want to throw cans at it.

less of a progressive tax approach etc that can actually argue a reasonable and considered line."

a?

Gareth: Sorry.

AND SO YOU SHOULD BE, WHOLE THING IS A PINKO COMMUNIST LIE CONDONED BY THE POLICE TO RUIN MY REPUTATION.
Sorry, just trying out that centre-right blog thing. Not going too well, will get back to you...

you've got to start slow and then ramp it up, you?

I trust Mr Brown doesn't object to the suggestion he's to the left of centre...

Not at all. On the other hand, I'm orthodox economically, have long argued for trade liberalisation, etc, so the labels only go so far. It would be safe to say that I'm socially liberal as?

will get back to you...

Gareth: Please do!

I can see why people venerate Margaret Thatcher, even though I drank two bottles of champagne the glorious day she was bundled out of office.

Russell: Well that's vision for you. May I humbly request that you share it.

I might not always agree with Craig, but I can respect his political philosophy. I can see why people venerate Margaret Thatcher, even though I drank two bottles of champagne the glorious day she was bundled out of office.

Then again, if you're a champagne socialist of the [[http://www.salon.com/11/features/mortimer2.html|John Mortimer?

And I made it clear to John Drinnan what I thought about his angle on me hosting Media7 (which might have been summarised as "Labour lickspittle gets taxpayer-funded soapbox in election year shock"). That does piss me off.

Hey, I'm still a Socialist lick-spittle (eww!) for working for you, you?

Colin Espiner's blog seems to attract some extreme right ranters, but there are some very interesting and varied views that seem neutral politically and therefore address issues.

That's not "neutrality", Ian. You can have perfectly strong — and strongly expressed — views on either end of the political spectrum, and?

but I was startled one day to be browsing the forums on Trade Me and discover that I was "an extreme Marxist".

Let me guess – Redbaiter was selling off his Ann Coulter memorabilia collection?

I can see why people venerate Margaret Thatcher, even though I drank two bottles of champagne the glorious day she was bundled out of office.

I have some friends who did similar, although beer was more their style. While I admired Thatcher a lot of the time, a few things?

Let me guess – Redbaiter was selling off his Ann Coulter memorabilia collection?

Probably something more like this wonderful piece of eco-friendly furniture (Hat-tip: BoingBoing SERIOUS WARNING LINK REALLY NSFW) It's designed for what Ms. Coulter does to my head.

That's not "neutrality", Ian. You can have perfectly strong — and strongly expressed — views on either end of the political spectrum, and still maintain a modicum of civility and regard for objective reality. Doesn't have to be a zero-sum game."

I was excluding the ranters who seem to be?

That would be cool. I can't join a discussion at Kiwiblog without receiving direct, personal abuse these days, and it would be nice if there was a place to go and discuss ideas with a different crowd.

I remember when the comments were introduced here (2 yrs ago next?

Craig: the eco-friendly furniture is labelled GREEN. If that's what you get when you vote Green, they will govern alone!

Or in a loose coalition with the Leather Wipes Party.

Or in a loose coalition with the Leather Wipes Party.

Fantastic site – did you watch the videos? I certainly hope they wiped that one thoroughly beforte selling it to some punter.

That seemed to set the scene, and those of you who don't use your real names (and I understand the varied reasons for that) still respect the guidelines and the atmosphere here.

I've always been surprised by how little I've had to moderate. The odd word in someone's ear, a?

Craig: the eco-friendly furniture is labelled GREEN.

The shade on offer was labelled 'Pistachio' and was a tad... gaudy for my taste.

Fantastic site – did you watch the videos? I certainly hope they wiped that one thoroughly before selling it to some punter.

All the Better Half had to?

The truth is not that hard to agree on

Wrong. Or rather, its a category error to think that there is such a thing as a true or false answer to the questions of politics (all of which boil down to "what should we do?").

There are facts about the?

But at the end of the day, there's no truth in politics – only interests.

Idiot Savant: Yes – and the interests are as real and as varied as we are. Some people see a personal interest in living in a healthy society which is not too divided and some?

Sure truth was the wrong word...I didn't like it when i wrote it..but there?

When did the Public Service become the Bureaucracy?

And when did bureaucracy become a bad thing? It originated as a good thing sometime around the French Revolution (I think) when bureaucracy replaced patronage, favouritism and nepotism with a fairer system !

the data doesn't back these claims up, it's absurd when we can't even see eye to eye on data and stats. We owe so much to the study of data, why fuck with it at election time?

Because as Craig pointed out people take what are essentially faith based positions?

In Clearwater, arriving reporters were greeted with shouts and taunts by the crowd of about 3,000. Palin then?

In the latest instance of inflammatory outbursts at McCain-Palin rallies, a crowd member screamed "treason!" during an event on Tuesday after Sarah Palin accused Barack Obama of criticizing U.S. troops.

These people are getting quite scary.

The New Yorkers editors have outlined a very strong case for why [[http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/10/13/081013taco_talk_editors| Obama is the better?

These people are getting quite scary.

And to give credit where credit's due, I expect to be fully underwhelmed by our campaign over the next four weeks and change. But however nasty, I'm cautiously optimistic that this is one sewer New Zealand politics isn't going to sink to.

Racist catcalls and calls for Obama to be put to death are OK, but actual interviews?

Well ... given one of those death calls was from Biden, who wanted to do it himself...

:-)

big billboard brother says we are extremely overtaxed, we are business unfriendly, we have out of control crime, we have unprecedented floods of migration of our best people.

To be scrupulously fair, the first three of those things are matters of opinion, since they depend on your personal assessment of?

Well ... given one of those death calls was from Biden, who wanted to do it himself...

Heh... but I'd respectfully suggest that if Biden was in the habit of referring to the adult black man topping the bill as "boy" (and to be fair, I don't think most Kiwis?

The New Yorkers editors have outlined a very strong case for why Obama is the better choice.

That's one hell of an endorsement. Shame the kind of people Palin is stoking up at her rallies don't read the New Yorker. Or possibly, just don't read.

National leader John Key must feel like borrowing instead a few apt phrases ? like "doggone it" and "aw heck" ? that Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin sprinkled through?

Modern American Conservatives have sunk to the intellectual and emotional level of the guy who thinks the stripper really likes him.

As ever, John Rogers is the king of metaphor

And the comments to that piece are almost as good...

She's Bible Spice

It would be funny if Rich Lowry — who is sitting in the chair once occupied by William frigging-F. Buckley — hadn't got a woody over the "little starbursts" Sarah Palin sent through his body. **REALLY** Can I get an "ewww..." from y'all, brothers and sisters?

Meanwhile, exclusively on?

big billboard brother says we are extremely overtaxed, we are business unfriendly, we have out of control crime, we have unprecedented floods of migration of our best people.

To be scrupulously fair, the first three of those things are matters of opinion, since they depend on your personal assessment of?

Or possibly, just don't read.

Feral and inbred like West Coasters, Russell?

That's one hell of an endorsement. Shame the kind of people Palin is stoking up at her rallies don't read the New Yorker. Or possibly, just don't read.

More like one hellish endorsement. Getting support from this upperclass NY/SF magazine when $700,000,000,000.00 has been gifted to inept bankers in NY?

CHARLIE GIBSON: You?re in Juneau, walking along the snow, when all of a sudden you look down?
SARAH PALIN: Why?
GIBSON: Why what?
PALIN: Why am I in Juneau?
GIBSON: It doesn?t make any difference?
PALIN: But, how come I?d be there? Oh, you?

Where to start? Oh, I've got an idea — won't even bother. Do you think McCain is going to get any time soon that this feral populist shtick just isn't working?

e.g big billboard brother says we are extremely overtaxed, we are business unfriendly, we have out of control crime, we have unprecedented floods of migration of our best people.

You are refering to the blue billboards.

If you'd please direct your attention to the red billboards you will find that?

Do you think McCain is going to get any time soon that this feral populist shtick just isn't working?

Nope. What else can he do? Campaigning on the basis of maintaining Republican stewardship of the economy/foriegn policy is right out. As is harping on about his long history of?

His VP running mate attempts at a swift boating has sunk. Hell, his VP choice has sunk as even his own side has realised they don't want her a 72 year old's heartbeat away from the?

can anyone imagine a more insulting and detestable moniker for the working class?

SPPs (=Scummy Poor People)

Amoung the poorer voters McCain needs to swing it'll probably help.

No doubt they'll be eagerly awaiting the New Yorker to arrive in their letterbox, because lots of poor people subscribe to it.

Y'know, if Obama gets the endorsement of the Washington Post, the NY Times, USA Today, and the?

SPPs (=Scummy Poor People

Revolting peasants

because lots of poor people subscribe to it.

But we're pretty confident Sarah P will never read it.

I agree the GOP is dead in water, because Bush was in charge for this financial meltdown. However if McCain can distance himself from Bush (as he is trying to do) and can smear on Obama he has his best chance (a longshot).

...but when you are about to?

Sarah Palin takes the Voight-Kampff test

Do you think she'd shoot the guy under the table a la Bladerunner?

My mother? Let me tell you about my mother.....

when you are about to lose your house it suddenly doesn't matter as much if the other guy is black.

I was?

In these times the smear that has the most legs is not that Obama is black, it is that Obama is wholly supportive of giving $700billion dollars to rich pricks.

Angus: I know the McCain-Palin m.o. is that if you're going to lie you might as well lie big, but?

For people who claim to be the voice of 'Joe Six Pack', they sure seem to think he's fucking stupid.

Or they __hope__ that he is.

. . . don't you think someone is going to notice that McCain was "wholly supportive of" (and voted for) the bailout bill?

Maybe not. As James Thurber noted back in 1939, in that appalling elitist rag the name of which, Angus assures us, is mud to the lumpenproletariat, You?

The New Yorker is a magazine dedicated to the sophisticated tastes of some of the richest pricks in the country

Thanks, Angus, I like it too. You obviously won't need to be told that The New Yorker only costs a little bit more than the Listener air-mailed out to NZ,?

If this rather desperate stretch of logic and cries of 'palling with terrorists' is all the GOP has left, then Obama is indeed on a roll.

Does that mean you're officially changing your prediction?

McCain is shamelessly lying about an extremely worthy and worthwhile bit of public science funding. But Obama is silly?

The Republicans may have sown up the "Joe six pack"

Thaaart Sara sure is hot, grab me a six pack, aahhm gonna do me some VOTIN"
Ahh, ain't them thar yanks just so damn cute?
Seriously, if McCain/ Palin get the ticket I, for one, will be convinced that the?

I see John Key has just announced how National's going to be funding its tax cuts. Briefly, it's going to be trying to 'stimulate?

For anyone watching the debate who's boggling about how on earth you can pay $3 million for an "overhead projector", the good physicists over at Cosmic Variance have the whole story.

Thanks for that. I figured he'd cherry picked it from somewhere.

McCain is shamelessly lying about an extremely worthy?

There's cool and laid-back, and then there's "Are you really in the same room with this turkey??"

There's also, "when your opponent is doing such a fine job of digging their own grave, why interrupt?"

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

Caleb: Do you really think Kiwisaver and the Cullen Fund have no exposure now? Come on, reality-based critiques please.

Of course not, but I still think that actively cutting government revenue in the current climate is a really stupid idea. I also think there are considerable cross-overs between the Republicans'?

It plays to a particular kind of uninformed suspicion of expertise and experience, and we've got the American example to tell us how that plays out in the long run.

And looking at the current American campaign, you could be forgiven for coming to the perfectly well-informed conclusion that "experience"?

I see John Key has just announced how National's going to be funding its tax cuts. Briefly, it's going to be trying to 'stimulate growth' through further deregulation. Cos, you know, that's worked so well in the past, and of course deregulation policies have had nothing at all to?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

Note to anyone – we REALLY REALLY need a strong local capital market created by savings and we REALLY REALLY need to incentivise?

Right, that's torn it, what's Winnie's policy platform then?

Oooh,, me me! It's all the fault of those fucking Asians, but that should be no barrier to opening lots of consulates and trade missions in the countries we've just sent them back to.

Do I get a prize?

Except it's not Cullen and Clark that Key's having a go at here, is it?

Well, he bloody better – otherwise he's got a pretty steep learning curve on the whole election campaign thing.

It's the politically neutral public service. Who then have to walk past all those giant Stephen?

Do I get a prize?

Four more years of WPs confusingly righteous indignation?
And a toaster oven.

Taking away tax breaks for R & D? That I both 1. don't get, and 2. dont' see why National has put it in. It'll turn off a moderate?

I take the view that nothing is stuck that cannot be unstuck. Heaps of shit has been unstuck.

I can't accept the norm , it's unhealthy and against my evolutionary conditioning.

by the way ....what do people want that?

"To be scrupulously fair, the first three of those things are matters of opinion, since they depend on your personal assessment of?

I take the view that nothing is stuck that cannot be unstuck. Heaps of shit has been unstuck.

I can't accept the norm , it's unhealthy and against my evolutionary conditioning.

by the way ....what do people want that is so contradictory?

The oecd is the economic and social club we operate in and we sit very averagely in nearly all peer comparisons,

Jeremy – According to the World Bank we are the second most business-friendly country in THE WORLD – you must have missed this:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/06/business/compete.php

Therefore can anything ever stick around?

So even if the norm was ideal, you'd be driven to unstick it?

More.

sure we do suprisingly well on some individual measures, i guess it would be correct to say we are a normal oecd economy with nothing socially?

If the norm can be bettered make the argument but an ideal norm sounds pretty unbeatable ., i'd vote for an ideal norm

.....I'm saying it's 2008 and?

Taking away tax breaks for R & D? That I both 1. don't get, and 2. dont' see why National has put it in. It'll turn off a moderate portion of the business sector right after they've finished going "great" after reading about more tax cuts.

I would have thought?

Already the exporters have fired a salvo. The not-very-socialistic Jo Doolan has also fired in the hole. Even Biz NZ seems to have trained its guns.

And here's reason #1,978,042 why I'd make a lousy politician. As a general principle, I don't have a lot of time for corporate welfare?

But we're pretty confident Sarah P will never read it.

Hadn't you heard? She reads all the magazines...

Hadn't you heard? She reads all the magazines...

Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, Leg Show, Barely Legal, Inches ... And that's just since she started collecting Track mail while he's in Iraq.

Speaking of which, the impossible has happened and I feel a twinge of sympathy for Sarah Palin. Thanks Larry Flint!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VySnpLoaUrI