It?s not the place of the authorities to proscribe private behaviour, except insofar as it endangers people.

Totally agree with you, but it is their place to issue and enforce liquor licenses. I'm pretty sure the terms of every liquor license in Auckland say you?re not supposed to get your?

Shurely shome mishtake.

I agree but isn't it hard for people in a quick encounter (like serving a drink, or seeing?

O, to be young and?

May not be easy, but their license depends on them doing this. I've seen plain-clothes police do checks on bars where they see someone get served and then decide (by talking?

How does that affect the bartender's legal obligations not to sell to pissed people? Are preloaded punters harder to assess?

Or are the commercial?

Interestingly (or not, YMMV) I saw a UK TV show about policing in Yorkshire the other day and aside from the accents (and the incredibly pale skin)?

Exactly. How hard is it to remind license-holders that it's a privilege that comes with responsibilities. I'd expect hospitality sector organisations to back that strongly as well.

This suggests a real practical benefit to the long lines outside popular clubs: making people wait long?

Can?t say I felt terribly unsafe walking home from dinner in York at 11.30?

There's a show called Booze Britain that's compellingly awful viewing. It's hard to believe?

OTOH, the week we were in London I honestly didn?t see any signs of the Yob-pocalypse. Liverpool and Bristol failed to live down to reputation; and my one?

I've never been a place where there were so many people steaming drunk on the streets. But oddly, it wasn't threatening at all.

Common misconception. It is not an offence to be intoxicated in public in New Zealand. And I?m actually not sure it should be.

Unless you're causing a public?

Quite. How would one legally get home from the pub?

The offence was removed in 1986 ? unless you?re under 18, when it is an offence to consume or be intoxicated by alcohol in a public place.

Interestingly ?

If you?re drunk in public you should be prosecuted or fined, bar owners say.

They serve?

Some years ago, I was amused by a ChCh Libertarianz member, writing a letter to the Press, blaming 6pm bar closings for NZ?s binge drinking culture. Obviously?

Our national tendency to binge was what wrecked the experiment with party pills ? particularly when people used BZP?

Like some cop saying of Ireland: __ 'if [getting shitfaced is] a representation of what they do in their own country they've got big problems over?

We're mid-table for alcohol consumption in the OECD. It's not the drinking, it's how we're drinking, etc.

It's here.

Emptying a beer into the street is littering :-)

And pouring a poison into a storm drain, rather than the sewerage system?

Whilst Mayor Len Brown takes a high profile stance to micro-manage a non-problem with youths in the central city.

Are increased rates bills arriving in letterboxes?

Possibly at the blue-shirted coal-face, but very much less so further up the chain. There was an article in Granny two weeks ago about an Auckland karaoke bar that got snapped by the cops, hiding intoxicated-to-the-point-of-insensibility patrons in?

I saw that article, and thought it was one of the more egregious thousand words of casual racism I'd seen, even in a media that prides itself on that sort of thing. Evil foreign swine getting drunk in darkened rooms! With hookers and blow?

Really? His comments are hardly incendiary — remember when John Banks was declaring to all and sundry that he was going to close off Queen Street to traffic at nights? I think?

And I don't really see the difference between getting drunk in someone's garage (legal), getting drunk in a hotel room (legal I think) and getting drunk in a private room in a karaoke club (illegal).

I nearly threw up in that public toilet, I tell you.

How were Disaster Radio ?

The whole thing was a bit of a shambles,?

generally I have been amazed at how mature most young I come across are with regards to alcohol – these kids are not out of control (yes some are and?

I?m not Brown?s biggest fan ? and honestly not sure what the photo op walkabout in today?s Herald was supposed to achieve ? but yeah? I?m not sure he?s guilty of vote-grabbing dick-waving here.

That said I?m also not sure The Herald isn?t living?

The third is subject to conditions of liquor licensing law. The first isn't. The second isn't?

Same. That's why I'm not inclined to shovel all the blame on licence holders.

What?s the viaduct like?

We all avoid it, don't we? It's?

I suspect a lot of people don't, because it's probably laundered beyond all recognition.

I was a strong supporter of dropping the drinking age as it was a law that was?

A winery employee of my acquaintance has told his friends not to bother asking him for staff-priced?

But the people?

Amen. I've been saying that for as long as this debate has been going on. We were promised strict enforcement when the age was lowered. Have?

I don't think the supermarket idea would work and would inconvenience many people. From my experience teenagers buy?

True. More cultural maturity in that area would help us.

name and shame weak judges?

* Give people a drinking licence, and take it away if they cause enough damage
* 'People should need a licence to drink'

There is one area that might?

I worked for a while in the District Licensing Agency – the guys that hand out licences.

What I learnt is this; it is ridiculously easy to get a licence, and very difficult for the authorities to take it away from you.

Shouldn't it be the other way around??

Well I never!

That. Supermarkets dont have those supervisors running to check every sale of alcohol for nothing-

Word.

Prohibition doesn't work (Saudi Arabia, where booze is totally illegal, has a *higher* rate of alcohol related deaths than New Zealand).

Improving people's life-outlook and?

Yeah, that's totally fair enough. It's just a bit alarming the way some people seem to approach it.

Having worked nights in the City for six or more years Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon – what gave me the shits was the groups of geezer or single aggro dudes who?

Absolutely no argument from me there. Just saying the lack of public drunken aggro is nice. But yes, I've heard?

lack of public drunken aggro is nice

it really is aye. In urban areas the madness of the day complemented by the tranquility of the evenings seems almost diametrically opposed to the goings on in NZ. I recall you making a sound point last year that a lot of drinking?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you suggesting?

I think it's useful, it's a point of comparison. Not perfect, but I don't think you can really put?

Probably won?t help. The established precedents are so strongly in favour of a right to make a living from selling alcohol that only an explicit alteration to statute will usefully change how these decisions are made. An appeal to the High Court would not support?

Definitely won't help – we separate the legislature and the judiciary for perfectly good reasons. One unintentional consequence is that the latter unfairly get the stick for the former's shoddy work.

so those are in the legislation, not case law? Interesting

Sure ? which is a vivid contrast with Germany, or at least Potsdam where we were staying. Germany broadly speaking has very liberal laws around the sale of liquor, but I had an interesting chat?

Somehow, I think I prefer drunks to secret policemen. Let alone drunk secret policemen.

And let's be clear, this is a really legitimate thing. If you start up a business, the?

I don?t think anyone is saying that. I?m certainly not.

But I?m the kind of bear of little brain who thinks if?

And Oktoberfest isn't exactly a hotbed of sobriety, yet still seems not to become something out of a Millwall FC match on a good day.

No, case law, but a decade of case law carries its own weight. An authority that suddenly slapped a heavily punitive punishment on an offender would have the decision appealed to the courts and the courts would soften the penalty?

Eh. I disagree. Ruining people's livelihoods is a horrible thing to do,?

And what of the potential consequences of failing to follow the law around sale of liquor to minors? Let's not delude ourselves, Keir, the harm is not a one-way street: alcohol is?

Depends on the numbers. We do have secret police here, of several kinds. But I agree, drunken policemen have been amongst the most unpleasant kind of drunk I've ever dealt with.

A society where normal activities are 'privileges' conferred?

I dunno about that. Look at the obscene level of force on display for the second student protest in Auckland, which occurred on a Friday afternoon (and was a striking contrast to the inspector and a couple of other?

Bollocks it is. If it were a right, you wouldn't have to jump through hoops in order to get one. It's a privilege, allowing you to legally be in control of a lethal weapon. If a driver's licence is a right, then so is?

No, we don't. We have police, and we have intelligence services. We categorically do not have secret police.

I could not agree with this more! My personal view is all laws where there is not a clear committment to enforcement should be removed from the statute book.

Ruining people?s livelihoods is a horrible?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you suggesting we need a totalitarian government that happily butchers it own people and lets gangs of xenophobic goons beat up women in the street for being out with a foreigner?

I possibly should have mentioned that?

And again, here's an example of how it's really a cultural or social issue and not about law or availability. All this time in China I don't think I've ever lived more?

Two friends of mine ? a Maori father and son ? have a pretty jaundiced view of police priorities in the CBD.

On separate occasions in?

That's bang on. Sorry my last comment was in reply to Tom, I'm not sure what happened there.

There are too many things wrong with your comment, too many ways this could go?

Understandable, but also an unfortunate enabler of the very behaviour that put them off engaging. The IPCA is quite willing to administratively crack heads, and stories like?

I was particularly amused by this quote:

"The bar has been popular with Korean students, who have grown up in a culture that combines singing, food, and drinking to excess."

So, pretty much the kiwi drinking culture,?

What's the stats on that? How many complaints are upheld? How many are "Police acted appropriately?" How many complaints for brown people are upheld?Does it help your complaint if they know the colour of your skin first?
I am well aware?

The stats aren't broken down in the way that you'd like, but their annual report for last year shows that of the 17 public reports they released the police got slapped in every one?

Nah, my experience with my complaint has given me an experience I don't wish to have again. As I said, it's easier to avoid them.

Language police, on the other hand, can be found on every street corner.

I imagine he doesn't get to Family bar a lot.?

My first thought was that black-shirted thugs on every corner or not (and I admit I've missed these in China) doesn't alcohol make you do unwise things regardless of the downstream? Like driving your car. It's taken decades to ram home that message?

I thought so – anyone that severely traumatized by a flash of sequined drag queen (so to speak) wouldn't survive an afternoon?

Show them what happens?

One ? I drove into a guy who was stamping on another guys head a she lay prone in the gutter corner of Queen and Mayoral Drive ? just nudged?

That is what I was alluding to when talking about perhaps there were less Police about when it mattered.

Seriously – what DO people expect will happen if they jump on someone's head repeatedly? The answer is clearly a) They're not thinking at all and b) They're not thinking at all and don't care.

Good on you Dexter for reporting these?

Kapka Kassabova: The unbearable lightness of being English

Generally I am not a big believer in regulatory red tape arguments, but I do think that where you?

So? If you're so thoroughly invested, just keep to the rules. Check ID religiously, keep an eye on your staff to make sure they also take it seriously, and make sure your employment contracts are written?

Good point. How is a fourth offence by a liquor outlet not comparable?

All the main cities have foot patrols on "party nights". Auckland has several pairs of cops walking the beat around Queen Street, as well as the various vehicle patrols. However, they can't be everywhere?

How is a first offence not comparable? A third DUI is mandatory suspension for a minimum of a year, and some combination of up to a $6k fine and/or two years in jail. You don?t even have?

Someone suggested (online somewhere recently, can't recall) using the same approach as?

good point.

I took the "tag and release" idea a bit further by suggesting utilisation of the "Alcatraz"?

Seems better targeted than merely for being drunk. Belligerence and abusive behaviour is the main public safety issue. I'd rather also address that with therapy, but removing the immediate risk of harm seems appropriate.

That would be desired effect.

Ah, no. From the fine article:
The manager Ivy Yi-Wen Shen agreed to close the restaurant for 48 hours from 7am on July 21.
So the restaurant?s licence was?

So for instance while it is very nice to?

For sure. Nice to remind ourselves what the end point of some decisions looks like.

Well, given that you're not at all keen on enforcing laws controlling the sale of liquor, and you're not keen on alcohol-fuelled?

No, you were in need of a refresher on precisely what constitutes voluntary participation. Nobody forces anyone to sell alcohol as their way of making a living. Nobody forces anyone to sell alcohol to minors?

Exactly, but I don;'t think you'll convince the Ayatollahs around here that any answer than more jails/more cops will work.

For a more nuanced view, see David Nutt in today's?

legalising cannabis might cut alcohol consumption.

And why stop there? It stands to reason that P use may decline considerably were it competing in a marketplace with half a dozen legal alternatives.

Yet there's still the sense that this is attacking the symptoms rather than the cause, as Kapka Kassabova?

This is a good point. It seems to me that a better CBD environment would have its own benefits. If there were?

Wellington Free Ambulance is seeking funding to run a triage centre in Wellington CBD on Friday and Saturday nights to deal with intoxicated punters, instead of tying up an ambulance taking someone with a trivial complaint?

That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. I hope?

Right. That would have certainly nailed the assault victim I told you about upthread. He was, you will recall, told by?

Unlikely. WFA started the triage facility because they were having so many ambulances tied up taking people to hospital for alcohol-related issues that didn't have to?

I would rather that we got the promised enforcement and made it a bit easier for the police to get intoxicated persons who cause trouble off the streets for a short period.

I wonder if trouser confiscation could bring about a similar result at a lesser cost.

One night working in town – there was a trouser less guy so off his face he was sitting in a Queen Street bus stop masturbating.

I am not sure it would have the "desired"?

Not legally they can?t (s22 BORA for those playing along at home.)

In general, arguments that start `let?s lock more people up? are basically horrible horrible ideas that will lead to horrible?

Johnston St, actually: not the usual haunt of munterdom, but it's near the Stadium and it was Sevens weekend.

I am not sure it would have the ?desired? outcome.

Yeah, that's not desirable in the least. I was aiming to steer things further leftfield and hopefully provoke some ideas more akin to Hans Monderman's innovative traffic control solutions in Oudehaske.

In doing so I flagrantly ignored a number of his?

Thanks for mentioning that Islander?I didn?t stumble upon that chestnut until well into my twenties, strange that it never made one of those ALAC ads up to that point ..

?Perhaps more drinking fountains in popular drinking spots?.

Parents could help here. The fact I experience is that parents know about , aid and abet preloading before their kids hit the street. Parents don't quite click that what appears to be a relatively "happy?

They have discretion over who they arrest, but they can not arrest people in the absence of reasonable and probable grounds to think a specific offence has been committed.

it?s got?

Relevant case: Chris Fowlie's acquittal after being arrested subsequent to a "random" search on K Road.

and planned

Er, you said the cops have powers of arbitrary arrest, which is exactly false. If it is picky to point out the fundamental bulwarks of individual liberty from an?

They decide punishments when they put people through diversion, don't they?

how does locking up street protestors fit with that?

Is there some kind of Nixonian world view at play? Or are students and stoners just fish in a barrel compared with gangs and drunken hooligans?

Bingo. All the rainbows-and-unicorns statements about NZBORA and civil liberties doesn't cut much mustard on the reality of effectively-arbitrary exercise of powers of arrest and detention. I'd be willing to bet that the protesters who were released without charge would've been?

Well either they were arrested for a reason, or they were subject to unlawful arrest, probably involving assault and false imprisonment. In principle, the courts should offer redress. In practice yes there are difficulties practically enforcing laws. This is one reason?

There does seem to be a shortage of Marmite at the moment.

Because making them be honest about why they're arresting someone is such a terrible idea. We've just established that the police will arrest someone if they wish to, NZBORA or no.?

Aha!, I looked it up and I think you made that up.
Even I can't imagine the NZ Police arresting someone because they didn't like the style of his cravat and we do have laws that cover quite low levels of disorderly behaviour. So, while?

quality lawmaking