Instead of smart/sharp one answers we want someone who can guide the country through the tough times that are?

People really do feel that Labour do not know what it is like to try and raise a family, drive a car and keep a their heads above water

I think this perception is the real problem for Labour

Well, I think that's precisely the perception the advisers have been?

but I found this morning's Herald editorial the most delicious slice of unintentional irony.

Well, at least since this effort on September 28, 2004, which contained this eye-wateringly disingenuous complaint.

Mrs Fletcher says the mayoralty race is causing Auckland to become a laughing stock. If that is something of an overstatement,?

So far they haven't even backed a populist move like removing GST from petrol excise.

I wouldn't trust McCully et al. not?

For nine years Mr Cullen has been labelled a scrooge in his role as Finance Minister, but when it comes to treaty settlements, he is quick to?

So far they haven't even backed a populist move like removing GST from petrol excise.

And HTF is that a bad thing? Sorry, dc red, but I'm going to give thoroughly bipartisan props to both National and Labour for not falling for that particular piece of cheap, nasty pandering. Unlike?

there's the interesting (but seldom asked) question of what National would do differently that would assist those struggling to keep metaphorical heads above allegedly-rising economic waters.

Tax cuts 5 years ago, not in 12 months time when it is too little too late.

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but did anybody else notice the blatant dog whistling on 3 News last night?

Again, Paul, I really think you should open both eyes here. While I don't think coverage of the so-called 'Treelords deal' has exactly been overwhelming in its?

I don't mind Brownlee (he's my MP although I've never voted for him), and I like English. Nick Smith is a bit sensitive to the sun & needs a high?

A quick note to the effect that a couple of hundred million isn't that much for a group waiting over a?

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but did anybody else notice the blatant dog whistling on 3 News last night?

That was Scott Campbell again.

In the same report he described the Treelord settlement as "a highly lucrative contract" and blathered on about Cullen being "the man?

And as for worrying about the dead wood that a National win might expose us all too
Both parties have plenty of that (Judith Tizard anyone) but when you have seen quite as many changes of government as i have you?

I see that the deeply unlovely folks behind the Family Party (you know, Philip Taito Field's crowd)

The Family Party is Destiny. Taito Philip Field is the Pacific Party.

Russell – evil? Seriously? On the day on which Robert Mugabe was 'elected' you're flinging that at a political consultant?

Aren't?

Russell – evil? Seriously? On the day on which Robert Mugabe was 'elected' you're flinging that at a political consultant?

You may have mistaken my tone: I wasn't being entirely serious. But Crosby/Textor have been involved with some bad politics in their time.

Aren't you just playing their game of?

I didn't know the esteemed US Senators had weighed in on the issue of NZ's GST though, interesting! ;-)

Heh... But, sorry, I'm willing to give credit where credit's use when any politician, anywhere doesn't actually fall for cheap pandering. (And nice of Clinton and McCain to bag the opposition?

The two parties have more in common that they have differences

The sky will not fall

Indeed, it won't.

Anyway, folks, here's some intercepted footage from a strategy meeting at Crosby/Textor

Excellent! I think you've gauged my tone better than Graeme did ...

"Explaining is losing"

I find it difficult to comprehend the level of contempt for the ordinary person embodied in this statement – which is a campaign strategy repeated by Key and Brownlee.

Russell, I fear the dark arts are a feature of all political parties, even the organic Greens, to some extent.

Yes — although the Aussie consultant they used in 2002 didn't do them much good at all in the end.

My hope is that come the actual election campaign, the?

I'm sorry, but Fairfax is beating this up.

I'm surprised to hear this. It was buried on Fairfax's stuff website yesterday...

It is a pity that there are so few genuine investigative journalists in NZ, so that invariably the messenger is shot at rather than the substance of his research.

Excellent! I think you've gauged my tone better than Graeeme did ...

Sure, but I think there's going to be plenty of folks out there who don't share our sense of irony. I've long said that if you want to get schooled in bare-knuckle campaigning, just cross the ditch --?

And so we go on...yet another beat up by Nicky Hagar. Is it unusual again that Hagar trys to wow us with the 'secret' theme again.

As I noted, that the strategic advice is "secret" is hardly news. Strategic advice ain't much use when everyone knows it.

But this __is__?

And so we go on...yet another beat up by Nicky Hagar.

I don't think so. National have previously tried to keep quiet the involvement of this PR firm in their campaign, and the PR firm has a reputation for some rather low tactics. Advising Howard to lie during the Tampa?

He said he's hearing more talk and attacks on HC personal life swirling around the country like mad and being?

It is pretty clear to even a casual observer that the National Party's key messages around Clark not having any kids...

Wait a mo', Stanley, Hagar tried to run that line on National Radio this morning and even he had to take half a step back and qualify that statement?

OTOH, Russell, it's not hard to feel that folks are getting pretty damn sick of the slick, punchy and totally content free soundbite that Clark is very, very good at as well.

I agree, Clark is very adroit at soundbites, especially when that's the timeslice through which she must expound?

I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm surprised that he's cited the childless-Clark stuff. I really don't think that's been in play at all.

The drumbeat has been "Clark/Labour is out of touch", backed up by a run of soft press?

All I know is that my first contact with them was Kiwiblog comments... thank God I gave up reading them about 6 months ago; it's done me the world of good.

And if Hager has to rely on rumours like that, which have been around for so many years, it really shows he has nothing and gives credence to?

1. For once, could we have a vote FOR a freaking government, rather than a vote for anyone-but-the-incumbent?

I guess all it would require is for the?

Matthew Hooten clearly hates Hagar personally, but then Hooten is fuckwit

And, once more Tom, thanks for your dispassionate and thoughtful analysis. I'll admit to holding Ian Wishart is utter and unbridled personal comtempt, but my defence is that he's a fundamentally contemptible person.

but its also fairly clear to?

To be fair he used to be a lot worse, he's either mellowed?

I find Hooten very annoying, he can get quite vile at times – his tendency to play the man rather than the ball really offends me (sort of like bits of kiwiblog spewing over onto the radio)

Paul: I feel like that about both Hooten and Haare. I still remember?

OMG... You mean that Hooten and Hare actually DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER, and have been known to raise their voices?

Craig: Not so much the shouting as to why Hooten might feel compelled to shout, or for that matter for you to accent the shouting instead of wondering about the?

But it may also be because a story with so little substance was being given so much airtime. Just as at the last election Labour got a lot over the mythical american bagmen.

As he?

I've received 2 push?

– the decision by the party leader to employ Crosby and Textor

– the decision by some party official to use a stock family photo in a pamphlet

People really do feel that Labour do not know what it is like to try and raise a family, drive a car and keep a their heads above water
I think this perception is the real problem for Labour

And a party of business people led by a self made?

I get what you're saying but often it's just not relevant.

Hager's claim was so waffley that it should be dismissed as the fantasies of a conspiracist. He refused to cite any actual rumours or evidence that there was any organisation to them, and when challenged quickly began to backpeddle. Just the dog whistling innuendo that he accuses C&T of.

His?

This week's Media 7 should be a goodie. We're discussing drugs and the news media with a panel comprised of Ross Bell of the NZ Drug Foundation; Police Association spokesman Greg O'Connor; and Nandor Tanczos.

If you'd like to join us tomorrow evening at The Classic in Queen St,?

Or even better, perhaps C/T see this as part of their own PR work...? Getting your firm's name on the front page on a rainy weekend — nefarious skillz!

A rexamination of the 2005 election campaign probably is not going to harm National. The opinions of Nicky Hager?

I don't think those fit the push poll mould. PP's tend to be anonymous and undermining not overt like a party brochure. If those are push polls then what are the ongoing referneces by Labour and allies to secret agendas, big money donors, welfare and health cuts etc with?

The two parties have more in common that they have differences

The sky will not fall

Indeed, it won't.

Hmmm, although I suspect you're correct and I anticipate more and more announcements by National largely adopting existing Labour policies (which is what Rudd did here without Crosby/Textor's advice), Kiwisaver et?

Craig, the difference is that the Hodgson revelations were made in the open, clearly sourced, and backed up

One out of three is really bad, Stanley. I'd also question how 'in the open' any allegations made under parliamentary privilege really are. But using your logic every tawdry claim ever made?

Matthew Hooten is often off-message, to the chagrin of his party. It's what makes him interesting.

But this morning's effort was so on message it hurt. Both the rhetoric and the shouting about the nasty Mr Hager were fairly scripted.

It was funny that he?

Craig as much as I enjoy your verbose replies, of late they do tend to consist of "your example of National being shits isn't correct because Labour are shits too".

I get what you're saying but often it's just not relevant.

*sigh* Where the fuck did I say anything as?

We're discussing drugs and the news media with a panel comprised of Ross Bell of the NZ Drug Foundation; Police Association spokesman Greg O'Connor; and Nandor Tanczos.

Oh how I wish I could... I shall look forward to Greg's points with eager anticipation. I'd hate to be in his position:?

But this morning's effort was so on message it hurt. Both the rhetoric and the shouting about the nasty Mr Hager were fairly scripted.

Or he really, really loathes Hager and (I suspect) the feeling is entirely mutual. I chose the example of Lila Haare losing her mind quite deliberately.?

One of the things PR does is manage risk. It often does this by formalising the engagement with the media through key messages and photo ops etc. That can remove sponteneity which can often be an individual's strength. Problem with sponteneity is it can be risky, which means it?

Key may be the leader but is still part of a machine that aims to go on with or without him. His strings are pulled just like HC, who has large numbers of PR people and political advisers, gets media training, and has her picture enhanced.

Where the fuck did I say anything as stupid as ""your example of National being shits isn't correct because Labour are shits too"?

Hmm. Craig, you responded to Russell talking about Key by saying:

OTOH, Russell, it's not hard to feel that folks are getting pretty damn sick of the?

I agree with your views on Key – certainly a political and intellectual lightweight.

However, I disagree with you about no leadership on the horizon.
Re-Introducing – Mr Bill English... The Nats were perhaps a bit too quick to replace a seasoned politician like English with a superficial and?

But he's the leader – he shouldn't need "to be managed" because that just gives everyone that there's a bunch of backroom (dare I saw "hollow") men pulling the strungs

Helen received a fair bit of assistance from Brian Edwards and Judy Callingham (sp?) early in her term as leader.?

I/O – I think that that's understood – but if we're going to elect a leader we need to understand who they represent, who they owe to get where they are now, who's money?

As others have commented before, do you really think Labour only take political advice and guidance from a?

WTF do you think putting a Nicky Hagar article on your front page is?

And yes, I'd say exactly the same thing if they'd gone with a sleazy expose from Ian Wishart instead.

At least the SST?

If Labour, or any other party, employed people as nasty as Crosby/Textor, that would be a disgrace too. Either you don't know the depths to which they have sunk, or you do know and and just don't care, in which case you are presumably unconcerned to see their tactics?

It's not that new a topic – we've had 30-40 years of reporting about which PR firm National is using – from the Saatchi days and all?

Does Mike Williams count?

What I would like to see change in the SST is that the back chunk seems to have been taken over with photos of people?

Mike Williams owns his crap (and there's been too much of it). He is a party official, name and face open to the public. Hence the interview on Agenda, for example. No comparison with Crosby whose role isn't even being acknowledged by National at all.

I cannot believe that Hagar's motivation for writing that article in the SST was simply to inform and enlighten the readers – his past form suggests the main purpose was to score political points on behalf of his fellow socialists at the Greens.

I suspect you've never been to a?

I suspect you've never been to a Green Party gathering. More hippy than socialist

I think you'll find that Aro Valley in Wellington is home to both the Hippys (ies?) AND the socialists.

Both of whom vote Green.

I find it interesting just how defensive some folks get when pointing out that there's a hell of a lot of stones being thrown around a neighbourhood full of glasshouses

Pot. Kettle. Black.

A genuine question: do editors at major outlets sit down on Monday morning and discuss the major stories and decide which ones are the most interesting, which they'll run with? Or?

I think you'll find that Aro Valley in Wellington is home to both the Hippys (ies?) AND the socialists.

Which would relate if 'lived in Aro Valley' and 'members of the Green Party' were the same set.

Helen received a fair bit of assistance from Brian Edwards and Judy Callingham (sp?) early in her term as leader. It's not unreasonable for Key to get assistance, it is silly, however, of him to pretend he's not.

OTOH, try asking Doctor Edwards to disclose the client list of his?

Which would relate if 'lived in Aro Valley' and 'members of the Green Party' were the same set.

Thought they were.

My bad! :)

I'd be sure Labour's advisors are just as venal and evil and unscrupulous as Crosby/Textor, it's just that we don't know their names

Why? I can't recall anything Labour's done in NZ to rival what Crosby/Textor did/do in Australia; nothing at all.

To get all kiwiblog for a?

I think you'll find that Aro Valley in Wellington is home to both the Hippys (ies?) AND the socialists.

Both of whom vote Green.

A whole bunch of the socialists I grew up around just had major coronaries over their jugs of DB in their working men's clubs.

To get all kiwiblog for a minute, why is Key using an Aussie strategist and whatever happened to poor old Bryan Sinclair?

Because Claire Curran, Connor Roberts, Brian Edwards and everyone else are already paid whores of the Liarbore Dykeocracy and their finger-puppets in the politically correct Stalinist media and?

why is Key using an Aussie strategist

Actually, this explains the "look at how much better Aussie is than NZ" line he keeps spouting...
It's probably a joke the Aussies chucked in the script just to see if he'd read it...

/tongue in cheek

I think you'll find that Aro Valley in Wellington is home to both the Hippys (ies?) AND the socialists.

Both of whom vote Green.

IMO, socialists voting Green do so because of social justice issues rather than any quantity of socialism in the Green party. Our policies just do not?

OTOH, Russell, it's not hard to feel that folks are getting pretty damn sick of the slick, punchy and totally content free soundbite that Clark is very, very good at as well.

I find it amazing that Craig believes the PM speaks in such a way whereas I always thought?

Craig, you really are running out of ideas. It is widely reported in the US exactly which DC lobby firms John McCain is using,

Mr Pointen (since we're going to be formally bitchy): Are you sure you really want to be citing the far too cosy and very far from?

Well, I think that's precisely the perception the advisers have been seeking to propagate.

Yes, every time I hear Clark described as "smug" or people start by saying the "feel" something I know that Labour is not going to be judged on actual facts but in something from the Crosby?

Actually, this explains the "look at how much better Aussie is than NZ" line he keeps spouting...

Yes, Gareth, John Key hates New Zealand because he's a tool of FOREIGN warmongers, multinational corporates and nefarious bagmen. Not only "slippery" but unpatriotic. All you've got to do is get some traction?

The Standard has a gotcha. As predicted by RB – not a clear answer.

And if he did, do you think The Standard would have posted it? Jus' saying folks...

Craig, calm yourself down.

Stanley: Patronise someone else. Seriously.

I don't think I've heard Clark described as 'smug'. The?

And if he did, do you think The Standard would have posted it? Jus' saying folks...

That is one thing I don't like about the Standard. They do their credibility no good by ignoring some pretty serious failings of the current Government, like the Guantanamo style Immigration Bill being shepherded?

The Standard has a gotcha. As predicted by RB – not a clear answer.

And if he did, do you think The Standard would have posted it? Jus' saying folks...

Of course not. The point is not that it is the Standard who posted it, but that John Key fudged?

I don't think I've heard Clark described as 'smug'.

To be fair, Danyl I've said that Clark is a very, very smart and capable person but can be prone to a common failing among very, very smart and capable people — intellectual arrogance. You know, when you just can't bring?

It seems to me that Labour party supporters at PAS are building themselves a narrative to explain their parties upcoming annihilation and the Cosby/Textor revelations feed right into that, providing an excuse for the left that poor old Labour will only lose because of some sort of satanic, right-wing media?

Indeed. The only thing worse than having National sweep into power and do things I find distateful is having Labour hacks complain about their precious Government being "stolen" from them for months or years afterwards.

Is this some harking back to 1993 or is there, outside an odd reinterpretation of?

So you missed the "/tongue in cheek" bit at the end there huh Craig.
I'll toddle off then.

No I didn't, but I should have slipped in a "/tongue in cheek" tag myself. :) Not that I think we're not going to see the usual suspects running exactly that line,?

but I don't see evidence of them actually making stuff up – they exploited Tampa but didn't create it from what I can see.

Well, a boat called Tampa was there... They didnt make that up.

It had people on board that may have been refugees or may have been?

Of course not. The point is not that it is the Standard who posted it, but that John Key fudged the answer when he was asked in November 2007, ?Have you got any advisors round now that are seen in The Hollow Men??.

Wow. Kate asked the question twice. First?

Caught a comment on breakfast this morn on 95bfm. If I heard correctly Helen said they have always used a company called Insight. Has used the same company for years.

If you're referring to UMR Insight being the Labour Party's preferred pollsters then I guess it's fair to point out?

I doubt they're quite that well connected. I assume the guys behind the Standard work in the Labour Party Research?

It seems to me that Labour party supporters at PAS are building themselves a narrative to explain their parties upcoming annihilation and the Cosby/Textor

Maybe. Not for me though. I have just seen what these guys have done in the past and it disgusts me. No doubt Craig has an?

I assume the guys behind the Standard work in the Labour Party Research Unit

Do you assume that because you know? Because if you are correct then I assume they have been very misleading about their connections. I think you should back up that claim.

If you're referring to UMR Insight being the Labour Party's preferred pollsters then I guess it's fair to point out that Australian-owned UMR Research doesn't go out of its way to point out the New Zealand Labour Party among it's 'selected New Zealand client list'.

I would, however, be very?

Any thoughts, Mr Hager?

Helen Clark and John Key could be getting their campaign advice from the devil, for all I care. The point of this, in my not so humble opinion, is that the major opposition party in NZ is engaging in an election strategy that relies on debating?

Unless Hager's story is a complete fabrication, Key had been working with Crosby/Textor for a year, at his own initiative — and he's lying in that interview.

Thats it! The importance of this is that integrity is at stake. The debate has pursued all the red herrings (which are good?

I don't know that at all – but its an obvious mouth organ, far more so than David Farrar's?

No doubt Craig has an "on the other hand" waiting in the sidelines but in my experience of countless watching elections around the blocks for many years (sad but true) only Karl Rove comes close.

Don: I very much doubt Karl Rove (or Crosby/Textor) was giving advice on the downlow?

The point of this, in my not so humble opinion, is that the major opposition party in NZ is engaging in an election strategy that relies on debating only the issues of its choosing, and keeping the public in the dark on everything else. That is the scandal.

Precisely. Which?

First, Crosby Textor aren't that evil any more. They failed to save John Howard. They failed to get Michael Howard across the line. And?

idle speculation seems to have crystalised into genuine knowledge at an alarming rate. How do you do that?

I'm being employed by Crosby Textor to repeat memes.

When I made my comment, I was thinking about how much noise I heard about National's tactics at the 05 election (Exclusive Brethren,?

saw the now notorious "3 am" advert could be forgiven for thinking

Sorry Craig. How does that equate to claiming McCain fathered illegitimate black babies, doctoring photos of desperate refugees to make out they were drowning their babies or the FUD attacks on Gypsies or the outright lies and innuendo?

When I made my comment, I was thinking about how much noise I heard about National's tactics at the 05 election (Exclusive Brethren, secret trusts) in the years afterwards. These were genuine issues, but after a certain point even people sympathetic to your arguments are tired of hearing them.

I?

First, Crosby Textor aren't that evil any more. They failed to save John Howard. They failed to get Michael Howard across the line. And their "small target" strategy for Boris Johnson overlooked the fact that his status as the "anti-Livingstone" was what appealed to his core supporters.

That might make?

To blame the work of "evil" consultants (I know you were exaggerting Russ, I suspect Hager and others believe the hype)

Evil called again. They can't do lunch. How's a breakfast of devilled kidneys?

Huh? I thought I was saying I don't expect the sky to fall if the government changes this year, and you seem to have me saying something different. Did I miss something?

Just that you seemed to preface your comments by quoting what I thought was a pretty ambitious attempt?

There are politicians, on the other hand, who travel overseas to bad mouth our country.

Not even going to dignify that with a response beyond Samuel Johnson's observation that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I had no idea that lacking love for the government of the day?

I love kidneys! Luckily, I have a long spoon.

Really, if that Clinton ad is the best "on the other hand" you have I think you simply prove my point.

Don: I think you've proved mine — it's not as if Clinton is a Republican or Karl Rove, because they're the only people who ever engage in scummy attack?

But, if you can't see differences of scale and substance I will leave you to your?

And the connection between?

And four months out from the election, we're beginning to really need to know.

I'm still doing National the credit of believing they will reveal policy when the election is called — after all, if Labour cared that much, they could dispense with their own games and announce the date?

she probably needs to get outdoors and get fit like the rest of us – that she can ski should not be a surprise

Oh, she's scary fit. Cross-country skiing is not for the faint of heart.

Does that included their non-negotiable declaration that they will unilaterally remove the Maori electorates ? It's one of the few things that National are clear that they will do.

I thought they'd hedged and qualified that one up the wazoo. Is it still live?

And the connection between this and the issue at hand is...?

That the fashionable bogeyman de jour (and one set up to suit the partisan interests of the speaker, more often than not) doesn't do a damn thing to address a toxic culture. One that's a little more complex than?

if Labour cared that much, they could dispense with their own games and announce the date tomorrow.

The privilege of setting the election date is a relic of First Past the Post absolutism. Give it to the electoral commission, with the option of invoking the Governor General should the Government?

the amount of trying to discredit the standard that goes on in the right wing blogsphere approaches paranoia at times.

Most lefties on the web long ago accepted Farrar's impact as significant – it sometimes seems Kiwiblog is the primary news source for the Herald op-ed writers – and stopped?

The privilege of setting the election date is a relic of First Past the Post absolutism. Give it to the electoral commission, with the option of invoking the Governor General should the Government not have the confidence of the house.

Is there something that could be done in NSW first?

Like this, Tom? You've really arrived when you've got your very own attack blog, but as I've said here before the running blog feud between Kiwiblog and The Standard (which seems to have abated quite a bit) is boring as only blog-feuds can be.

I have come to share your?

I thought they'd hedged and qualified that one up the wazoo. Is it still live?

From the National Party website:

The National Party Caucus today moved to confirm its position on the future of the Maori seats, which involves tying their abolition to the settlement of historic Treaty claims.

"The?

Seriously, the fallout from this kind of cavalier, arrogant, disenfranchisement will be massive.

I'm certainly not disenfranchised by being on the general roll. I don't see how it would be any different for New Zealanders of other ethnic backgrounds.

If memory serves, there's a decent proportion of Maori on the?

The Family Party is Destiny.

So have they changed their name so that Tamaki's preachatisements aren't considered election advertising?

I was just channelling Forrest Gump (or something)... you know "evil is as evil does"... and CT haven't done anything effectively evil for about seven years now.

It's kind of like John Key twirling his?

raise a family, drive a car and keep a their heads above water

I think that's:
pay a nanny, drive a Ferrari and keep one's head above the balmy waters of the Carribean.

This evening I happened to bump into the very person who tipped off the Standard to the RDU interview.

Let's just say: Labour-friendly, but not in Wellington and not in or at Parliament. So all ninth-floor conspiracies should be set aside.

When asked in the 17th century why England was going to war with the Dutch, some English general or another frankly replied along the lines of "Because they have to much trade and we have resolved?

I think you'll find that Aro Valley in Wellington is home to both the Hippys (ies?) AND the socialists.
Both of whom vote Green.

And:

Which would relate if 'lived in Aro Valley' and 'members of the Green Party' were the same set.

In recent years the place has become?

and i think The Standard has achieved its goal of leveling the research playing field and bringing the bracing breeze of competition (doesn't everyone love competition?) to the blogsphere.

I pretty much agree. The Standard has succeeded as the obvious alternative; a clearly left-leaning blog. However, it's also?

This is an area in which National has actually been transparent, and consistently advocated a relatively unambiguous policy based on a clear principle... I fail to see how this is either cavalier or arrogant.

Well, dissolving a political consensus that's been in place for over 140 years is a pretty?

At midnight on the last day of June, can I pat the other PAers on the back for this being the first month when we've exceeded 55 thousand unique readers (56,491 to be precise — with a mean visiting time of 8 minutes).?

The privilege of setting the election date is a relic of First Past the Post absolutism. Give it to the electoral commission, with the option of invoking the Governor General should the Government not have the confidence of the house.

George: I'm sure our resident Legal Beagle could come up?

What's North & South's circulation down to these days?

Hope it's not as low as APN's share price. :(

Sadly, those deprived of power for almost 9 years, unable to cope with the natural order of things being so disordered, will do absolutely anthing to right the wrong.

OK, Stanley. I'm sorry to tell you this,but we do draw the line at Satanic rituals. It's all fun and games?

Well, Caleb, I've never heard anyone hankering to take the great leap backwards to reintroducing the property qualification or genuinely disenfranchising women.

Well, there is one ex-pat conservative blog I can think of where such ideas go down well.

I'm also rather keen on getting rid of the 'political consensus'?

Not to mention the bizarre form of discrimination which is inherent in 'choosing' your Head of State from within a single aristocratic family (which, bizarrely, lives literally on the other side of the world). Might as well be the dark side of the moon.

I'm one of those people who's?

It might not be a principle you agree with, but to cry disefranchisement seems foolhardy.

Well, rather dishonest anyway.

What's this Craig, are you calling me dishonest ? Unless you subscribe to the principle that criticising National's policies is thoughtcrime and therefore inherently dishonest, I suggest you visit a dictionary?

While this might be long enough for National to have a change of heart, I'm minded to conclude that since they have effectively ditched?

And just to totally change the subject...

At midnight on the last day of June, can I pat the other PAers on the back for this being the first month when we've exceeded 55 thousand unique readers (56,491 to be precise — with a mean visiting time of 8 minutes).?

What's this Craig, are you calling me dishonest ?

Not at all, Mikaere. "disenfranchised" has a rather specific meaning — the revocation of the right of suffrage (the right to vote) to a person or group of people — and if you're not engaging in rhetorical over-kill then your definition?

The message I get from parliament and the bureaucrats is that they hold the rest of us in contempt.

I agreed with most of your comment Kerry, but I don't agree with this, particularly with regards bureaucrats (but I would say that).

The spin and polish does tend?