Is it this one?

Yes! Thank you.

Apparently it's not science if it means leaving the Hummer in the garage and?

Some have even sought to have him sacked from his job at Massey University — and been given short shrift by [vice] chancellor Steve Maharey

What is this a reference too? In past roles, I've certainly commented that university academics claiming to be the critic and conscience?

I thought it was clear that I meant Maharey had given short shrift to those lobbying for Joy to lose his job.

Of course, I misread it. Excellent. That's what I'd expect him to do.

"...Dr Joy told the newspaper that although this country promoted itself as "100 per cent Pure New Zealand", the reality came nowhere close to matching this. "We don't deserve 100 per cent Pure, we are nowhere near the best in the world, we are not?

I?ve just worked this out. The editorial writer (and?

Thanks. That's very useful.

For surely they've breached some code, if not of accuracy then of ethics

I made an 'against the trend' comment on this at the time saying something along the lines of "what else could he have done"? The PM's got to be a spokesperson for NZ. I understand the validity of criticising him and?

He could and should have said he would do something about it (and also, more importantly, he should do something about it). He may be Teflon?

I don't mind the 'just marketing' concept so much (except for how clumsily it's being said), because 100% pure was obviously only ever meant to be?

I recall he did, however limited that was.

(and also, more importantly, he should do something about it).

Agreed.

Or, of course, the voters of NZ could do something about it. That's the sad bit about the howling down of environmental criticism here – it's got a lot of support.

She appears to do so at some length in the next paragraph of her column. Did you bother to read it?

I have read it. It lists one matter germane to the point I am making, which links, in effect, to a Green Party press release on a policy that?

A couple of laments;

There is an element in our media culture (Gordon MacLaughlin may argue?

It might help to address what she actually wrote. The paragraph you're complaining about doesn't mention rivers but laments "a lax approach to environmental care and management" on the part of the government.

In the next paragraph she cites?

I can imagine that may have got up Dr Joy's nose, especially with the?

People do respond to announced intent, not just implementation – even lawyers.

But even that is a falsehood. Our fertility is being imported from Morocco (go and read?

To be fair, it's probably more cowshit than bullshit.

It's all marketing, though. I have to admit that having the Prime Minister of the country publicly compare New Zealand with a globally respected Americanised fast food chain was a stroke of genius in countering criticism of the 100% pure claim. Problem solved!

Do tell.

yes, fair point.

That post made me start mentally singing a Tori Amos song. Uncool, inexplicable complaining guy. UNCOOL.

You think that's bad? Russell's reply gave me a Greg Johnson earworm.

Russell, maybe it's been noticed, but the text of the Herald's mangled editorial seems to have spread uncredited to something suspiciously similar in the Fairfax world, though they cut off the worst bits.

In relation to what he told the NYT: __"Joy told?

pickled :)

Announced intent seems the only notable difference between the previous and current governments, implementation being quite indistinguishable.

I've got it now too, love it; Ballgowns & Small Towns... if anyone knows Greg, please tell him he should include Sydney in his 20th anniversary tour!

I will charitably presume you have not been paying attention. ETS changes alone have already skewed environmental impacts over the last few years.

I heard the preview of this on the radio this morning and thought I'd love to go along. [[http://www.eventfinder.co.nz/2012/greg-johnson2/auckland/parnell|Sunday afternoon at the Paddington in?

Besides abolishing democracy in Canterbury specifically to give farmers a free run contrary to the will of the voters?

Instead he had the gall to dismiss Dr Joy's data and merely one scientist's opinion and he could find other?

Leading up to Mike Joy?s work and comments now, some excellent, strongly-backed research and findings going back to Morgan William?s days as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment?

Labour ennacted the ETS in late 2008 for phased implementation, but then lost office before any implementation took place.

Sweet, where can I buy them?

Others have mentioned ECan already, so I won't, but how about National's refusal to impose strict water quality standards for councils in the last term?

most African villages (just ask Madonna)

So he never said to the Times that we were in the "bottom half of countries when it comes to green and clean" but he did say it to the Herald? Because, as you point out, he is a scientist and evidence is?

I'm too tired to dig it out now, but I think he was referring to the PLoS study, which, as Mike points out earlier in comments, should not be read without caveats.

FWIW,?

I haven't read it, but the quotes in here immediately made me think of Roughan. He's so thoroughly anti-progress, anti-urban, anti-environment in his witterings about public transport and roads that he would?

Someone else will know for sure, but hasn't tourism to NZ gone down in the last few years, even with the PM as Minister?

But the problem isn't limited to agriculture.

A common view is that the lack of human population makes the destination attractive.

Maybe. But it's no good for?

The decline would lag from the previous government's term as well – but we can only imagine how bad our position will be in a few more years.

Global financial collapse and our soaring exchange rate may have something to do with that. Not that it lets anyone off the hook for pretending all is rosy.

Yes. The global economic crisis and a high Kiwi dollar, combined with the Christchurch earthquakes (which have hammered the tourism industry for the whole of the?

Warning: Not for the faint of heart. But these pictures from Yuncheng, Shanxi might help. Text is all in Chinese, and the pollution source is more heavy industry (specifically a paper factory in this?

It's now a matter of public record (thanks to one of earlier MfE "document dumps" after the sacking of the ECan Councillors back in 2010) that way back in 2006 and again in 2007 __and__?

Better rattle your dags ;)

[[http://greenbuildingelements.com/2012/11/19/beijing-makes-changes-to-fight-air-pollution/|Studies done at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem concluded that people living in Beijing can expect to lose five or six years of their life based?

Most of NZ's issues with air pollution- at least in terms of particulate pollution- are related to?

TOURISM HAS ACTUALLY HARMED THE WEST COAST-?

Agreed , but less export dollars = less imported technology.
Farmer Green's point is that we have to somehow reach a consensus about how much environmental exploitation we will tolerate in return for modern technological comforts.?

Agreed ; a large proportion of the phosphorus entering our waters is coming from the cities and towns via the sewage outfalls to waterways.

I fully appreciate the nonpartisan approach Matthew (& Angus). The dinghy didn't spring a leak overnight, and no amount of amnesiac 'us and them' gets us anywhere fast. From any other angle it looks like our collective?

Farmer Green thinks that it really doesn?t matter what they say if tourism aka recreational pollution ceases in?

There is an element of that , but on the positive side we have had only a very short time in which to soil our nest , and arguably we have become aware of the problems much sooner than?

Is it naive to think that we will fix the problems before anyone else does

This is not a finite set of problems, so fixing them before anyone else is not a realistic objective. Billing it as a competition between nations could only lead to shortcuts being taken. So yes.?

?This is not a finite set of problems ?

Possibly; sustainability is not a yes or no?

Of course there's some lag, but if National were actually the environmental messiahs we'd probably have seen less of a decline, possibly?

Largely irrelevant, I think.

1: All activity damages the environment. The problem us humans have to figure out is how to limit that damage while maintaining a decent quality?

And I've visited and lived in much worse than Beijing. I still remember not long after I moved to Taiyuan one of the older, wiser expats telling us young'uns that to avoid lead poisoning we should always wash our face and hands as soon as?

I certainly would agree that all Pakeha activities on the West Coast have damaged the general environment (gold mining, coal-mining, forestry, farming in general, and – laterly- dairyfarming -) BUT

tourism – on the West Coast – has broken?

If the fertiliser-use standing is accurate, the water quality implications are straightforward – especially when you consider that we fertilise largely for pastoral applications, which gives us the twin?

And I've visited and lived in much worse than Beijing

I respect your courage Chris. When you leave, your insight and expertise of the terrain here and hereabouts will be sorely missed, but I can't deny (based on my current snot blood content) that I won't feel greater peace of?

I live near the Manukau coast. Havent had the fortune of visiting the West Coast for over 25 years, will be rectifying that with my children this January. Cannot speak with any authority at all on impact of tourism on the area. Can speak with some authority on?

I seem to recall that the methodology in the first one was pretty ropey.

The issue seems to be less our absolute position compared to other countries, but the trend, especially with respect to water resources.

At no point has Dr Joy said we should stop using fertiliser or stop making milk. What he has said?

Science says that reducing stocking rates in order to reduce nutrient overload will result in decreased production .
Nutrient overload on soils= "fertiliser run-off" (for nitrogen)
Hill country erosion = "fertiliser run-off " (for phosphorus)

You are wrong on both counts. Our export earnings have very little correlation with?

No , I am equating reduced production with reduced GNP, if prices received /unit production do not rise to compensate.

Are there any other global comparison studies where we rank closer to the bottom than the top other?

And a great number of economists would disagree. To be fair I don't have much faith in economists. But also again you are deflecting the discussion?

I'm sorry I really don't get that impression from the things you are saying.

"Farmer Green is inclined to the view that an immediate redesign of the dairy industry , in particular, limiting the use of nitrogen , irrigation , imported supplements , dairy support etc to lower stocking rates would have a noticeable and desirable effect overnight. The economic?

There has been a bit of noise over the financial implications of the One Plan ; unfortunately a variety of people quoted in the media and the media themselves can not tell the difference between a?

The citizens were?

Why must it be an either-or? Why can't we just stop bloody subsidising the polluters and, instead, divert the money into low-footprint, high-value exports like software development? If we could just keep our hands on?

Stopping borrowing from overseas in order to fund our property obsession would be a spectacular start. That's the vast, vast majority of our trade imbalance.

Mostly because we'd be competing with much lower wage (and low environmental standards – see pulp mills) manufacturing nations, and would have to either reduce wages or subsidise exports. (Unless we can convince the rest of the developed?

Of course not, provided it's actually treated, not just sat in a collection pond for a couple of weeks before being sprayed about and left to run into waterways.

Fully-treated sewerage is?

Why not? Interior mouldings can be, and are, made from NZ pine, and are popular overseas. Just throwing up our hands and saying "It's too hard" doesn't help us get away from being a low-wage farm.

A problem spanning all governments since our world-leading Resource Management Act was introduced has been failure to set national standards for regional councils to use, despite their requests.

It's been a while since I had any involvement in forestry, on the training end I should note, but my recollection is that pine veneer is a well used high end product and that forestry firms activley cultivate and, through careful silverculture pratice, harvest?

National were quite happy to set a voluntary target, however, and allow councils to vary it based on their local conditions. It's?

we need more of that #alchemy

This as well. On a roll, Mr Poole. Great to meet you and your other half last week too.

Other nations seem to manage. It's part of stewardship/governance; of being grown ups rather than distractable and indulgent teens.

According to the NYT, we've slipped from 1st in 2008 to 14th, so I'm not sure how that's?

Typical VC firms (especially the minority that work in innovative areas, as opposed?

For politicians, the explanation may be even more prosaic. "Dogme is one of the reasons why a lot of creative stuff is happening,"?

Satire! Love it. Surely?

Sure, but they lend on rapidly-depreciating items like cars. This person just wanted?

Most bright ideas, as discussed above will fail. So the bank would need to either charge a huge?

The chaebol of South Korea would seem to fit the bill. Samsung, LG and Hyundai were actively supported and financed by their government for a long time. There was a fairly severe reckoning with the?

There are lots of examples of successful government funding schemes, even in little old NZ. The problem is they all have one thing in commong, they fund quality first and tend to ignore any kind?

Indeed, "silviculture"; I did say it'd be a while!

And it's hard to see how consumer broadband will drive that level of economic growth when businesses have been able to get as?

That's the official story but it's such a crock. My bank sent me?

I see on your blog you say the editorial ?repeatedly accuses Joy of deliberately ?exaggerating? and ?overstating? problems with New Zealand?s contaminated waterways and declares that ?such overstatement is the stuff of advertising, not academic observation.??

Hmmm...but they're already winners. They don't need funding. To fund the winners is to reduce the diversity of your industry, and ultimately to be picking the winners, without intending to, in a self-fulfilling prophecy. We've been doing this forever already, we have a political party?

Is that really what Sir Paul said? It's been a while since that presentation of his was doing the rounds, but my recollection is that he wanted funding for technical education, funding for research, and a general spending commitment to develop the kind of equal?

Often winners don't have funding nor can they get it. They win by dint of persistence and excellence in spite of lack of funding. You get more bang for your buck by funding those people who are excellent regardless of whther they?

But it remains that unsecured lending to business is risky (as South Canterbury's creditors, which I guess includes?

What do they win?

"the Prime Minister made the very reasonable comment that compared with the rest of the world, New Zealand was 100 per cent Pure"

Isn't this like saying that grey is actually white compared to black? Sounds like Fox News science to me.

Identifying 'excellence' is the trick with that approach. Some industries like science have well-developed comparative mechanisms; others don't.

I'm not even sure it's Tim Murphy. It sounded far more like a certain long bow drawer who just happens to be on the Press Council.

Still, the wider issue is that greed and green are headed for a Tenerife runway greeting – no one wants?

Umm I wasnt talking about anyone?s profitability. We are not all about money.
Or hadn?t you noticed? Seems a farmer?s life is getting easier. Greater from less?my!
So what is the?

Recent legislation that weakened the emissions trading scheme makes it easier to pollute. We now have a Clayton's scheme, which is perhaps a other piece of "just marketing".

really? shrinking pool of suspects..

It may not have occurred to you that the increased stocking rates were an attempt to achieve viability in the economic sense.?

In which case we're sunk! The glib, self-serving short-termist twats currently running the?

The native flora & fauna? seems to be missing from your equation.
Not that I?m picky, You've probably buried it in there somewhere?