Hard News: Friday Gold: An email exchange with Michael Laws
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Not to dogpile on Giovanni, since I do actually agree that the interchange with Lhaws went on beyond where it needed to (I think the "jerk jerk jerk said it all!), but this:
...let's face it, NZ on the whole *is* pretty conservative
Really? In comparison to where? I agree that NZ certainly has a conservative streak, and I'm quite glad I'm not there with the current gubmint, but internationally speaking, I think we're not too bad, actually. Scandinavian countries are leading the pack, but we're not in the US league. Although we are starting to slip behind Australia, even after the depredations of Howard and his cronies.
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Timaru, and Temuka still have meaning, and the olds were notorious for breathing (rather than enunciating) last or internal vowels
Practising that now, that's an awesome feeling.
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I want whatever Mark has smuggled into his apartment.
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I think we're forgetting that our nation's name is a mispelling of Zeeland.
Except there aren't any Dutch people getting offended, are there?
(And I also am unsure of how true it is to say `misspelt' when clearly New isn't Nieuw misspelt; it's Nieuw Anglicised and so I would argue with Zealand. Nouvelle Zelande isn't a misspelling of New Zealand but the French name for New Zealand. I don't think you can claim that for Wanganui, which is pretty much just a misspelling.)
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Word, Keir-
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New isn't Nieuw misspelt; it's Nieuw Anglicised
In fact it's Nieuw translated. As in New York, not New Yark.
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TracyMac, I think we'd agree that there are strong conservative (in both the political & religious & traditional senses) elements in ANZ society, and that they have their strongest (but diminishing) footholds in what is loosely called 'rural NZ."
*But* - when I think of the world I grew up in, 62 years ago, and the ANZ world there is now- all I can say is Great! We've freed up a lot of things wonderfully, and edged towards the liberal nation some of our forebears hoped for.
Remember, 'gone up North for a while'?
Remember, thrashing - not just smacking-stroppy or disobedient kids was deemed essential?
Remember School Cadets?
Remember, women didnt need to work after they were married?
(If they did, they were taking a job from a man.)
Remember that working girls and women were routinely paid less than half the wage their male counterpart earned?
Remember, greeting a telephone customer with "Kia ora!" was a sackable offence? -
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Nouvelle Zelande isn't a misspelling of New Zealand but the French name for New Zealand.
The French refer to the Dutch Zeeland as Zélande so there's a logic there. On English maps Zeeland is labelled Zeeland.
In English we use the Latin Caledonia, and New Caledonia despite Nouvelle-Calédonie for the same reasons as the French use Nouvelle Zelande.Wanganui, is an anglicization not a misspelling, if anything it's a misanglicization....there's been a lot of those. But as you said
"Except there aren't any Dutch people getting offended, are there?"
Currently only at the appropriation of the term Dutch and underage sailors. But I'm sure I could rile up a couple.
...racing the edit button countdown.
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Rhighto
Nice. That you, Casserly?
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Laws is the Comte Saint Germain. That much is obvious. Sue Bradford is an instrument for measuring the Earth's telluric currents. And the anti-smacking legislation was necessary because all that good parental discipline was causing the planet to oscillate too much on its axis. With that quelled, the PC brigade can use Sue B efficiently enough to ... locate the earth's spiritual pole ... and create a doomsday device devastating enough to ... put an "h" in "Whanganui". Permanently.
Sounds good. But where do the goldfish come into it?
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No, I stick with anglicised (& frenchified), being a term more precise and yet more general than just translating, because it is both the translation and the language that it is important.
(After all, were i to be called the Duc d'Orleans, I should anglicise as the Duke of Orleans, where duc is translated as duke; likewise nieuw vs. new.)
On English maps Zeeland is labelled Zeeland.
Yes; and yet the Dutch have changed their orthography since the naming of New Zealand, which rather suggests they aren't the hottest spellers, and further we should arguably refer to the dialectal name for Zeeland.
Also I should argue that the kind of transformation involved in the change from New to Nlle is different from that in the change from Whanganui to Wanganui.
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When the fuck did Laws turn into my grandmother's evil Mirror Universe twin? Dress nice and speak proper English, or else.
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I see, thanks Keir.
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While that was beautifully written Sasha, I think we're forgetting that our nation's name is a mispelling of Zeeland.
Did you dial up the Knew Zeeland Original G(angsta) Bored before you renamed Sacha, "Sasha" there Tark?
Fuck this is confusing. It's like following the Auckland Warriors, New Zealand Warriors, Vodafone Warriors and eventually once again Auckland Warriors.
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I read it as gently ironic. None taken.
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To quote p. 1873
"rate payer's money being spent voting on spelling?
that's a sorry compromise for human progress.we have all quills, we have all text input devices, we have all free will. we can to spell that schit the way we want it.
is wanga whucking vegas hard to find on the map?
every ½ ass wants a say in the official spelling these days.
to dictate how others spell their word.
whaschists.
polls have shown most people who give even the slightest fuck about the name change would only ever stop there to fill their cars with refined oil and leave a uriinary deposit,
it's not exactly Mecca.
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...let's face it, NZ on the whole *is* pretty conservative
Really? In comparison to where? I agree that NZ certainly has a conservative streak, and I'm quite glad I'm not there with the current gubmint, but internationally speaking, I think we're not too bad, actually. Scandinavian countries are leading the pack, but we're not in the US league. Although we are starting to slip behind Australia, even after the depredations of Howard and his cronies.
Do I need to quote you the results of the last two national referenda? I know it's unprovable, and may be unfair - how do you compare the degree of conservatism in different countries when the history and the material conditions of the population are so different - but I think NZers are a pretty conservative bunch, it just doesn't translate into worse governance because the political class is reluctant to tap into certain sentiments. What was it that Bolger said, it will win the election but I'll lose the country? Brash had no such reservations and after his first Orewa speech I think we got a taste of just how catastrophically things could turn if the Right had a populist leader with national appeal, and chose to go there. I think we have to be grateful that Brash wasn't a very appealing person and that his party (some credit is due there) wasn't quite ready to follow him where he wanted to go.
I have all the respect in the world for the Labour government, but it wasn't incredibly progressive either - it ran on a very moderate social democratic platform and got crucified for the few progressive social issues where it made some headway.
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I think NZers are a pretty conservative bunch, it just doesn't translate into worse governance because the political class is reluctant to tap into certain sentiments.
I think a better way to look at NZ's prevailing political culture (Matthew Palmer's written a book on this) is lazy egalitarianism. Not actively seeking out opportunities to promote equality for everyone, but wanting all people to be treated the same if it doesn't affect you. So you get people like Mani Mitchell growing up intersex in rural New Zealand with, by her account, fantastic support from the community. Georgina Beyer as mayor of carteron. I know there's been a lesbian mayor, whose name escapes me, in rural Taranaki.
I think most New Zealanders don't get agitated about things if they can see it doesn't really affect them. Even the virulent anti civil union sentiment, as far as I could tell, was restricted to mad fundies. Sure a lot of others felt a bit uncomfortable about it, but not enough to get really worked up.
The flipside is the famous New Zealand tall poppy syndrome - everyone should be treated the same so those that stand out are viewed with suspicion. Similarly, affirmative action stuff (maori quota at law schools comes to mind) doesn't wash, because it's people getting treated differently.
On another point entirely - lets get serious about a book group - Emma set up a shelfari PA group about 6 months ago, but only like 7 people joined.
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On another point entirely - lets get serious about a book group - Emma set up a shelfari PA group about 6 months ago, but only like 7 people joined.
First I hear of that. But is not something that could happen within PAS? I know there must be excellent reasons, just wondering what they might be.
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First I hear of that. But is not something that could happen within PAS? I know there must be excellent reasons, just wondering what they might be.
No reason, I don't think. Just needs someone to start a nominate a book, wait a few weeks, and start a thread, yeah?
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I wonder if Mr Lhaws listens to Lhawrence Arabia? Or indeed 'feels irie'.
One doubts such a scenario. It might help though.
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Shelfari - good reminder. Conservatism - I'm always surprised at how conservative secondary school students are. That's a shocking generalisation but at a recent Rotary speech comp all four finalists, when given the smacking issue as their impromptu topic, spoke in favour of smacking. When I asked my school's rep why he was more conservative than me, he said "That's because you're a baby boomer!"
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Books ...
First I hear of that. But is not something that could happen within PAS? I know there must be excellent reasons, just wondering what they might be.
There is no reason at all that it couldn't happen, other than that no one has yet done it. I think it's an excellent idea, actually.
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