Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Friday Gold: An email exchange with Michael Laws

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  • David Haywood,

    Sacha quoting the Holmes:

    When an "h" follows a "w", it makes damn all difference to the pronunciation of a word.

    God knows I don't want to become an apologist for Paul Holmes, but I suppose he could be referring to the fact that the 'wh' sound and 'w' sound used to be distinct in NZ English but now they have merged.

    And -- as I understand it -- the pronunciation of the 'wh' in the W(h)anganui dialect is supposed to have followed the old-fashioned NZ English pronunciation of 'wh'.

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood,

    Incidentally, when trying to confirm pronunciation of the W(h)anganui dialect via my 'Dictionary of the Maori Language' (7th ed.), I found this peevish note (p.484):

    'Wh' represents the voiceless consonant corresponding with 'w'... It is a mistake to assimilate the sound to that of 'f' in English, though this has become fashionable in recent years in some of the younger Maori.

    Which just goes to show that all languages undergo change (as if we didn't know that).

    I note that the famous Dr Pei Te Hurinui Jones was on the advisory committee for the dictionary's 7th Edition, as well as Madame E.B. Ranapia -- any relation of yours, Craig?

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Professor of Linguistics Laurie Bauer touched on W(h)anganui pronunciation on RNZ yesterday (streaming 13 mins, MP3 4.7MB) - from about 10:45 in.

    And -- as I understand it -- the pronunciation of the 'wh' in the W(h)anganui dialect is supposed to have followed the old-fashioned NZ English pronunciation of 'wh'.

    More like "hw", right? It seems it may have been closer to o-wanganui. Maybe similar to Oamaru?

    Bauer voices it, anyway. He says Pakeha couldn't hear that sound clearly, so applied spelling wrongly. And regional differences seem to have been ignored, as they were with "Otakou".

    don't want to become an apologist for Paul Holmes

    I know your household has a professional interest but I'd say you're being far too generous this time, David. The contrast with the tone of Pat Snedden's piece that I linked to is striking. In context, Holmes read to me as nothing more than an overconfident and undereducated honky applying what was true for his culture to another one. Fossil.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • David Haywood,

    More like "hw", right?

    Yeah, well I didn't want to write a thesis on the subject, but --weirdly -- the old-fashioned NZ English pronunciation of 'wh' sounds more like 'hw' to modern ears.

    Bauer voices it, anyway. He says Pakeha couldn't hear that sound clearly, so applied spelling wrongly.

    Not to mention the 'p's and 'r's -- how the Maori piripiri gets turned into the English biddy-biddy. Fascinating stuff! (Not that I know anything about it, really, except what I've gleaned from my dearest).

    I'd say you're being far too generous this time, David.

    Heh. Perhaps residual guilt from my television reviews of Mr Holmes...

    Dunsandel • Since Nov 2006 • 1156 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Did you (or dearest) spot the use of the word "gleaned" on Outrageous Fortune last week?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Back in the good old days, when the Imperial British Jackboot was hard on the throat of large swathes of the known world, there were certain traditional shortenings or pronunciations of place names that were drawled out by the ruling classes over their quinine-infused G'n'T's. For example:

    Hong Kong: 'Honkers'
    Singapore: 'Singers'
    Bangkok: 'Bangers'
    Kuala Lumpur: 'Lumpers'

    You get the idea.

    Anyhoo, I reckon applying this charmingly old-fashioned way of speaking to the town in question would solve all the current problems.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you....'Whangers'

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    But but but - you've kept the h Rich! (See back the thread for "Wanger"...)

    Timmers and Dunners are yoof speak for Timaru & Dunedin (suitably truncated for txt) even now-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you...

    Technically, I believe you were beaten to it a couple of pages back by te west coast massive.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • andrew llewellyn,

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you....'Whangers'

    May I suggest "Whangers" for the place, "Wangers" for the residents.

    Since Nov 2006 • 2075 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Technically, I believe you were beaten to it a couple of pages back by te west coast massive.

    Ah yes. I must conceed the point. I probably would have noticed that if I hadn't been replaced by my own less perceptive clone.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    wanganui
      /ˈwông-ar-nue-eeʊ/ noun, plural -nuis , verb, -nuied, -to⋅ing.

    -noun
    1. mistake, error, misconception.

    2. misappropriation: it was a wanganui of the original concept.

    3. to reject (a proposed bill or enactment) by exercising a wanganui


    –verb (used with object)

    4. to rule against or disallow the arguments of (a person or people): The referendum was wanganuied by the board

    5. to ignore a democratic vote (usually by a higher authority); the board wanganuied the referendum.

    6. to be wrong or mistaken. he wanganuied the spelling right up.

    Origin:
    [1854; Maori; Whanganui, big bay or big harbour]

    Te Ika-a-Māui • Since Mar 2008 • 2281 posts Report Reply

  • Carol Stewart,

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you....'Whangers'

    Pronounced 'fongers'? I like it. Very much.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2008 • 830 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    replaced by my own less perceptive clone

    Gno the feeling.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis,

    As an aside, what if historians found out that Auckland in County Durham (where Auckland gets its name) was in fact mispelt and should be Awklund.

    Would people get uptight if others demanded the name change and the geographical board went ahead with it?

    devils advocate and all... :)

    Since Nov 2006 • 903 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    Like andrew llewellyn's compromise - and mark taslov's explication...Sacha win's today's chocolate whitebait for excellence of punning.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock,

    Pronounced 'fongers'?

    'Fongers' is actually how I hear it in my head most of the time.

    "Oh dahling, I'm so tired of the Auckland social whirl. If that awful Glaucoma woman puts me in the social pages one more time, I shall simply scream. Let's head up to Fongers for the weekend, get away from it all. Dear Michael has offered to put us up in the town hall."

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2728 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca,

    Heh, no matter where you go, there they are.Must admit tho', many accents here are interesting to listen to, now if I could just figure out what they are saying ;)

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Islander,

    whatever the sea says,,,

    ssh ssh quiet or waiiLLL CRASH CRASH STORM

    Or, just calm-

    for now-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    what if historians found out that Auckland in County Durham (where Auckland gets its name) was in fact mispelt and should be Awklund.

    Well, actually the English name for Tamaki Makaurau derives from the 2nd Earl of Auckland, whose title in turn comes from West Auckland in the County of Durham.

    Further, current historical consensus is that the name "Auckland" was orginally spelt "Alclit" (1).

    So there you go. With proper references not from wikipedia and everything.

    1.http://web.archive.org/web/20070927173424/http://www.northeasthistory.co.uk/the_north_east/history/echomemories/darlington/305/200705.html

    BTW, your link facility is broken for webarchive references.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Lyndon Hood,

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1115 posts Report Reply

  • Cecelia,

    Thanks Lyndon - good link. He just doesn't get it, does he?

    Hibiscus Coast • Since Apr 2008 • 559 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    He really is just a cock. And a tiny one at that. The public of Whanganui might want to welcome him wherever he appears with the pinky gesture from those Aussie road safety campaigns.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    Sacha, I completely agree. I formed this view after one dealing with him in 1995 and nothing since has convinced me otherwise. I wonder when advocates of the status quo will realise how his behaviour undermines their credibility?

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2273 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    he was just like that back in 1981 when I last had anything to do with him too ....

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    I wonder what it says about our national character that enough of us enable and even embrace nasty shallow people like him. Or is that universal?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

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