The only thing I?ll quibble with is whether Goff can be blamed for Tizard?s conduct. I think he (and Little) carry the can for this as well.

For one thing, if Goff had told those who needed telling about the Hughes allegations at the time?

Nor is it particularly helpful when smart people like Brian Edwards who should know a lot better, let WhaleOily comments like this run unchallenged.

My first reaction to this story was ? was Darren Hughes set?

L

I don?t know? on some level, I think Goff is a far too convenient scapegoat. I?m having acidulous flashbacks to 2002, when National won the lowest share of the popular vote in the party?s history. Blame the media? Well, that?s easy enough to do. Blame Bill English & Michelle Boag?

So Tizard is now an elected MP by virtue of being next on the list. Isn't it rather?

Is it too obvious to point out that the roles of Party President, Party Leader and Deputy Leader are now filled by entirely different individuals?

If Little, Goff and King were drawing up the?

Might be worth $160,000

Labour needs more urgency, more mongrel and more seriousness about its obligations to its supporters who are really hurting under this Government.

Yesterday, a tweet from Clare Curran:

Can we please talk about what really?

I think the main problem for Labour is that the centre-left policy core?

And the lack of visible cross-party work is also notable. Goff on Q&A calling Matt McCarten his "political opponent" may have some truth in it but does not come across as someone capable of working?

I?ve got to pop out for the rest of the day, but I thought the only point being made is that Laws will concern troll on behalf of nice white middle-class people who?

I understand the mechanism: Labour have moved to the right, basically, and don't want left-of-centre MPs.

But the voters of 2008 voted for the list as it stands, and?

I am sure they have some good and different policy based on what they seem to have been discussing. Fat lot of use though if they don't have the ability to organise themselves well enough to communicate that compellingly to voters.

They can?t now. The only thing that endears me to Goff is that the party?

On the bright side, at least Labour here isn't seriously facing the downright sadistic beating voters handed to the New South Wales ALP over the weekend.

Being not National is a great reason to exist.

What planet do you live on Jackie?

Dude, I think you've just used your Noob pass. Disagree with Jackie using all your words – make an argument, be pointed and articulate, wit is always a plus.

If Labour wants to reposition itself as a conservative party that merely reacts against National policy then they should make a conscious decision to do that, and they can formulate strategy and run an election campaign based on such a platform.?

L

**Re-**position?

[wadja mean I can't embed boldface? Programmer! ]

yet. there are many months till the General Election.

my 2c (again), is a National/Maori coalition, with Labour no-where near in the running.

Nats might even break 60?

Are KiwiSaver, Working for Families and the Cullen fund the policies of a conservative government?

They do, but he'd be a mug to go there right now. I would not be surprised to see him running the campaign after this year's, though.

In an old-fashioned way, yeah, sorta.

While ideologically I support benefits for those that need?

Where?

Sure there are always people who set out to defraud WINZ and get away with it for too long, but claiming that a) this is a statistically significant problem?

That's what I meant!!

True – so surely if one wants to make real, useful efforts to prevent people "milking the system", which will actually impact government revenue, one should start with corporate tax shenanigans, untaxed capital gains etc. – all?

Which might be a fairer thing to say if you'd cited any facts rather than simply presenting your claims as self-evidently correct.

Conspiracy theories abound that Goff's leadership was a deliberate strategy to tank the match?

Fair enough Russell?so why did you not post this reply to Jackie?s original posting for the same reason?

one should start with corporate tax shenanigans, untaxed capital gains?

Trust me, we need him in Auckland and for pretty much the same reasons.

Today brings yet another call to hock the family silver from one of the region's rightie dunces who doesn't understand the value of ownership. You'd think?

Let me point you to our Keith Ng fisking that claim with some canny graphs.

So the top 1% of taxpayers pay?

I'd say that Kiwisaver and the Cullen Fund would fit happily into the policies of a (fiscally conservative) right wing government.

Besides, these are good policies as far as they go, but they're tweaking at?

They've had two and half years and all the mandate they could have wanted. I'm fairly sure they've done everything they were going to do in that area.

I, too, am?

the reasons for the sorry state of our economy go back a long way and neither Labour or National govts have been able to do enough to prevent NZ being highly exposed to the financial crisis.?

Isn't National's stated strategy for combating tax evasion to make taxes low enough so as to not be worth evading? Not quite what I meant.

Have you seen Inside Job yet?

__"In the spasm of moral recrimination that followed the collapse, some blamed the bright kids who passed up careers in science or medicine?

I tend to agree, however I don't think the GFC or Christchurch quake have helped much either.

You do not remember correctly. The first thing we found out about Worth was that the PM had sacked him.

Therefore, the argument for not rolling Goff appears to rest at least partly on the assumption that rolling him would lose Labour votes at the next election.

So, would it? If so, why?

There were certainly questions raised about Key's leadership

__"The Prime Minister had ample reason to sack his Minister months ago but lacked the necessary leadership to do?

Six months is, after all, an eternity in politics.

I would like to see Labour hop off the spontaneous combustion cycle and present as a ?credible government? in opposition.

That could prove wishful thinking.

I agree. The election campaign hasn't even remotely started – it's not as if the new guy (there would appear to be no viable gals) would be lacking time to make an impression.

But not that he was subject to police investigation. He had resigned for "personal reasons" and there would be no further comment.

At the time, Key had known about the?

But that too would require?

Please do provide examples, John. Really.

Actually, and my serious misgivings about it notwithstanding, the "two New Zealands" speech by Goff at the party conference created quite a bit of separation between the two parties on policy. More than we have seen for some time.

Can't see a link to I/S's post about that.

For those who don't know: virtù is a key concept in Niccolò Machiavelli's The Prince. Roughly translated it means "political virtue", competence in political management and the application of power. The other key concept is?

Fair enough. Funny how I had forgotten it..

My interpretation: I'm not important enough to be bothered with.

Probably true! :)

The sun is shining strong out the window in my world now?

Sacha, there was a draft economic policy put out a while ago and Claire Curran's run a very well attended open online workshop to develop other policies. Like all parties, Labour's now working on it's List and on a manifesto. As is always the?

I think Che's got the smart money. The Maori Party has good reason to be stoked about their deal with National right now.

I'd like a leadership change, but my main reason is because I've disliked?

appreciated. have been a watermelon voter for almost 20 years, and can?t see that changing.

but can?t help seeing it as a little futile this time round.

That criticism?

L

Dont be too sure on that – a lot of flaxroots support has gone for the Maori Party. I've noted earlier that there will be a couple of surprises coming out of the South...

I am pissed off with the current Labour-as-Opposition Party?

It's not as if your?

Yeah, nah.

You might also read the comments to that post, in which I scotch the misunderstanding that I'm after a policy release. And several other apologist shibboleths.

L

I don't have all day, to be honest I'll stick with what you wrote in the post, which I didn't think was any more unimpeachable or any less selective?

with National heading to a near-60-seat haul, the Maori Party could get down to as few as 5 seats (1 seat + 4?

L

Great counterargument.

So: sigh.

L

It's going to need to be *promoted* properly, which is my concern. Most voters don't eagerly seek out manifestos. Labour and other parties have proved able to engage the public before, so presumably they can again. However?

I'd be interesting in hearing if polling suggests most voters are aware of that speech, let alone?

They currently have 4 seats and 1 of those is looking in trouble so?

Labour critics need to stop wanting it every way. It is one thing to?

I can?t find it ? Labour?s website seems to be mostly about Phil Goff?s lifestyle block, which sounds idyllic?

I found this speech by David Cunliffe, which seems to be very strong on the fiscal rectitude and incremental?

Again, any research results to back that up.

With that in mind i'd not be completely pissed off if the opposition parties (all of?

What do you mean research results? For crying out loud: Phil Goff gave a major speech that was widely reported upon in which he delineated very clear differences with National. He's not empowered to beam this into the brains of the electorate.?

If you define yourself in a forest... :)

In a way that's a microcosm of Labour's problem: not grasping their real task, and blaming the audience for not listening properly.

You cite the ?two nations? speech as ?who Labour is?, but one speech doesn?t tell us that ? and that speech is just one of a series of somewhat contradictory positioning statements the party has made?

If you prefer to assume that the audience is some sort of Athenian square, be my guest. Let me know how that works for you.

@Lew: parallels could?

This is exactly it.

L

In other words, preaching to the choir? The Business Roundtable has always been holier-than-thou and thinks anyone who disagrees with them has a picture of Stalin hanging on?

I don't even know what that means (lack of classics education?).

Giovanni, you introduced the term "empirically incorrect". I'm saying it pays to measure the right thing.

You know better than most because of your educational?

I believe the problem is broader than that – and Labour is not the whole opposition either. I want to see commitment from all those with the privilege of being members of?

On the bright side, at least Labour here isn?t seriously facing the downright sadistic beating voters handed to the New South Wales ALP over the weekend.

It is more of an indictment on the Libs that they were not able to kick out a corrupt state administration years ago.?

He seems pretty personable and likeable to me. Actually more personable than his extremely successful predecessor?

Although for some reason a little timid and uncertain of himself at times, as RB?

You speak as if there are some firm, preordained limits on political achievement given a certain point in the cycle. You also?

Yes, come to think of it: how many voters could outline a single Green policy? Or name both Green leaders? Or recall the last time the Greens were in the news for something??

Maybe top-rate captains don't always make for top-rate generals?

And yet they managed in the past. What's changed?

I've gone into great detail about what Labour can do, and indeed, none of it is simple. In a nutshell it's about moving away from a policy-led rational-actor model and towards a?

I think it?s?

If the outright ridicule of counterarguments works for you, don't let me interfere.

Art of understatement – you haz it.

Appalling policy platform and a bad direction for the country, but that?s independent of its quality as a political move.

Re the media — my only point is that a political movement which wants?

And yet, how many times have you heard Goff interviewed on the radio and come away wondering what the hell he actually said?

I think there has to be an ability to consistently and convincingly speak from the position you?ve set out?

Oh, no question. And I think there is cause for doubting whether Goff actually believes in the platform. Again, I'm the guy who thinks they ought to?

I can offer a by-no-means-unique but still reasonably rare perspective on this, I think. It's understandly easy to?

I recall talking with?

16% under Helen Clark at one point, Paul. That's half what Labour's regularly polling now. And look what Clark (with Cullen) went on to achieve...

And let's not forget "naked". While DPF is by no means the worst on this topic, I had a headdesk moment over this:

can you politically endure an incident where a naked 18 year old, less than three months out of school, ran?

I'm a tribal?

She responded to me once. She wasn't very nice though.

And you shouldn't. It's possible this is a vexatious complaint or a misunderstanding or something that doesn't breach any law.

But — and this is a bit like the Assange case — it's a complaint from someone apparently previously very favourably disposed towards Hughes and the party?

Lew, just saw this gratuitous comment. Going to let it pass through to the 'keeper (as they say over here). I like the company at publicaddress which is robust?

When he was out of Parliament, after the 1990 election, he was asked about Rogernomics and he said that the policies were right, they just hadn't been explained well enough. That's not the talk of a man that admits to mistakes.?

Could that not be why he is so bad? You're a safe seat MP or a list MP, you don't have to?

Led by.. Cunliffe

Bzzzzt! Isn't there a Godwin equivalent for when people invoke Zimbabwe?

List MPs — various?

You're not the first person I've seen make this argument, but I still don't follow the logic. While not implying for a moment the complaint is vexatious, the only circumstances in which someone makes?

Bridging the vision and the now is a damn hard thing. Connecting dreams and realities. Yet political parties have been doing that for years, with the right skills and leadership. Has the ground really shifted?

Yes. And I'm sure his background with big international business consultants was a help.

Joyce, on the other hand, hails from a more provincial business environment. Trouble is, governments cannot be run like commercial radio stations.

Sadly I suspect we're seeing exactly that in the case of the interminable broadband backroom dealings Joyce has concocted since the election.

Okay the Zimbabwe thing was meant tongue-in-cheek. There really needs to be a tongue-in-cheek smiley.

All list MPs aren't "bad", and I'm not saying they are. I'd agree with a few of your picks of the good?

I am and I'm not panicking. Hughes has gone?

Oddly enough, for someone who is actually a politician and therefore should be vitally interested in this, I'm not.

What it all proves is that politicans are human (to wit, Michael Lhaws, Darren Hughes), not superhuman beings that act perfectly, 100% of the time. Well, maybe 99% of?

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. He's a bloody great electorate MP, from what I can tell.

Bob Clarkson.

In reality the accountability and representation has greatly increased with the introduction of list MPs.?

Four parties got MPs on the list in the last parliament. Eight or nine could have done, except that not enough people voted for them.

Each of those parties?

i'll assume you're not so familiar with MMP...

have you heard of the overhang?

Rex, the man gets out and about, promise. The guy is a workaholic

Hard worker =/= accountable. Or even "willing to listen". I don't know Goff's work as an electorate MP well enough to comment on him personally and so he may well be different, but my general experience?

+1.

the man was a fcknuckle, but... that's my home town. it's a like a great big fkcnuckle gang bang.

Goff also revealed that he would have stripped Hughes of his roles as chief whip and education spokesman even if police did not lay charges in relation to the alleged incident because of the questions of judgment that were raised.

?I made it clear to Darren that I thought,?

Where is this ample evidence, Rik?

I think the difference, Rik, is that Keith does his?

I totally agree with you John. I think there's a huge underestimation – even on this venerable blog – of the effect of the changed ownership and operation of the?

"I can hear one side of the case through Darren Hughes. I can't talk to the complainant. The police can talk to both, and that's why they're the appropriate body to make any decision?

I don?t really read Watkins often, but when I do I?m struck by the shallowness of her commentary. She seems to embody the worst of Beltway culture.

Quite understandable though – just another result of the subtle leadership of the media.

And Goff didn't accept the resignation. But now Goff says that no matter what the police find, Hughes' "lapse of judgement" was such that he?

Or because it was presented and managed in a forgettable way.

Dunno Russell, perhaps he really thought it'd be over before he would be pushed to have to drop him. He said he honestly didn't know about the allegation until reported. Goff is taking all the flak on this, this man?

And yet other parties seem to manage their political messaging just like they always have done. I'm not convinced that the technology is overturning those fundamentals of political management. And social media is a way *around* the gatekeeping of traditional?

I notice that many people in this discussion seem to know a heck of a lot more about the inner workings of the?

Whoops! Parker.