Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Medical Matters

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  • Idiot Savant,

    Grant: Neither Labour nor National will want to. But the fundies may have forced their hand. We now have a ruling saying that large numbers of abortions are unlawful. If the law is not changed, then this will be used by the fundies to force the ASC to start withdrawing certification from consultants who certify "too many" abortions, or to impose a far more conservative interpretation of the law. Either way, it means women not being able to get abortions, and being forced to resort to other methods (smuggled RU486, Australia) or be forced to have kids. And that is going to put it on the agenda whether the major parties want it to be or not.

    Our compromise is ugly, but most people seem to be happy with the way it works in practice. We don't talk about abortion, but you can get one if you want it (provided you jump through the required hoops). People are going to want to retain that effective access, and if it requires the law be changed to do away with the kludge and admit we want abortion on demand, then so be it.

    This is the exact opposite of what the fundies want, of course. But then, they're not exactly noted for their intelligence.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1642 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    it's cause and effect. lucy all you need to worry about as a pro choice female is that the fish aren't swimming,

    Now, if a man came to an agreement with a woman that she would have the kid and he would then take full legal and financial responsibility for it, that's another story, but that's more akin to surrogacy.

    that's my point, because of this woman who has made this agreement, then suddenly changes her mind after watching a 'lost' episode, then what are the rights of the father?

    nothing

    why is this?

    there's nothing creepy or psychopathic about it Danyl, Stephen's right you've been trolled,

    and the upshot is, that alot of prochoicers are not in fact prochoice, but pro woman's choice, I mean seriously the arguments being made about men who would veto an abortion and then leave the women to suffer simply higlhlights a single obvious fact that both stephen and lucy you have a strong idea that the NZ female is a complete retard when it comes to choosing a sexual partner.

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Rowe,

    You should keep an eye on them. You might be surprised how prolific they are around Maori and other Polynesian communities. Various members of the Maori party certainly seem to feel there's value in keeping on their good side.

    Density Church/Family Party are all over Mangere at the minute. Local candidate Jerry Filipaina is at Mangere Market every Saturday making himself visible. Time for Labour to start upping their profile too, given the result last time.

    Lake Roxburgh, Central Ot… • Since Nov 2006 • 563 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    If I'm not mistaken you're talking about a situation where the woman wants to have an abortion and the father (potential father?) is permitted to forbid that, which, see violation of bodily autonomy above.

    Without wishing to argue on Mark's side, who's digging himself into a large hole...

    The other situation is mother wanting to have the child, and the father not wanting to.

    Currently men's control over the future ends at sex, women have other options after that. Which, when birth control has failed, no doubt feels a little disempowering.

    (Firefox doesn't think that disempowering is a word, but you know what I mean).

    Since Nov 2006 • 6201 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    In my universe, mark taslov, there is abundant evidence that human beings of all sexes make decisions about sexual partners that do not turn out well - even if they seemed sound to start with. In the event that their judgement was wrong, I prefer not to put the boot in afterwards.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2968 posts Report Reply

  • davidamstalden,

    New Plymouth • Since Mar 2008 • 45 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    I mean seriously the arguments being made about men who would veto an abortion and then leave the women to suffer simply higlhlights a single obvious fact that both stephen and lucy you have a strong idea that the NZ female is a complete retard when it comes to choosing a sexual partner.

    No, I just think that shit happens, and people are often assholes. Call me a cynic, but I'd rather not legislate with only the best of circumstances in mind.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    What on earth makes you think any man has the right to force any woman to risk her life and health because he wants a kid, when she doesn't?

    Because he's a man, and they're women, and that's just the natural order of things?

    I think someone was correct in observing a few pages back that this troll's opinion would likely be different if the penis was on the other foot (so to speak).

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1642 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    Currently men's control over the future ends at sex, women have other options after that. Which, when birth control has failed, no doubt feels a little disempowering.

    I actually do think there's some slim argument for men being able to veto a pregnancy going ahead. Clearly the problems are insurmountable in real life - forced abortions, no thanks - but I can understand why a man might be very angry at being expected to pay child support for a kid he did his best to not have. I know guys who've been caught by both sides of that; those who had fathers run off and never pay a cent, and men who couldn't afford the paternity test to prove the kid wasn't theirs, and had to shell out.

    OTOH, there are many more avenues for men to escape that particular trap than there are for women - fleeing to Australia being only one of them - so I think that it's one of those things where, while the current situation is imperfect, any "solution" would probably be worse.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    and the upshot is, that alot of prochoicers are not in fact prochoice, but pro woman's choice

    Well, only if I accept the specious claim of equivalence central to your argument.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18957 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    ha, kyle there's no hole in this argument, i would apologize, but i just get a kick out of whipping up a storm. It's a small pleasure i get during election years, watching the self proclaimed freethinkers turn fundamentalist bipolar cases. like every issue must be a validated real opinion. what people say they must stand by! etc etc and anything outside the traditional left right choices is trolling or psychopathic, it's hilarious, as far as i see the whole thing in reality as is, it's a non issue, sure the laws have loopholes, but on the whole the system seems to be working fine. so why try to fix a functioning machine, why does new zealand need to sew up all the breathing holes?

    If Russell wants to stir up a bit of abortion fanaticism I'm more than happy to oblige in giving opinion holders a target to vent at.

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Density Church/Family Party are all over Mangere at the minute

    Does anyone want to explain how, if South Auckland is such a hotbed of social conservatism, they elected the not-very-socially-conservative David Lange seven times?

    Also, although the wierdo wingnut churches are very prominent, none of the Pasifica people I know actually go to church any more than Europeans.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4463 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    "i just get a kick out of whipping up a storm."

    The very essence of trolling.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2968 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    like lucy went on to say:

    "but I'd rather not legislate with only the best of circumstances in mind."

    it's simply that you feel your voice must be heard.
    it's been conditioned into you since childhood
    and it's directly related to the fact the system maintains a logic espousing personality as the prime qualification for leadership over
    YOU.

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    you could call it trolling stephen, but you could also call it playing devil's advocate, depending on how up to date you are with the latest newspeak,

    btw, can anyone define 'wingnuts' for me, seems to be a new buzzword for the media cliques but i looked in the dictionary and all i came up with was:

    "a nut having two flat, widely projecting pieces such that it can be readily tightened with the thumb and forefinger."

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • rodgerd,

    Does anyone want to explain how, if South Auckland is such a hotbed of social conservatism, they elected the not-very-socially-conservative David Lange seven times?

    Because conservative churches in New Zealand have often been associated with white conservatives who don't exactly inspire Joe Samoan with confidence on issues other that 'moral' ones?

    none of the Pasifica people I know actually go to church any more than Europeans.

    Oh, well, there we are then. That's obviously a representitive and accurate sample.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 512 posts Report Reply

  • B Jones,

    Not only a troll, a patronising one.

    I'm sure there are places where people are happy to debate on ideas they don't actually hold. I've never thought of Public Address is one of them. It's not my cup of tea, in any case.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 812 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    just feel we've been matronized too long

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • Lucy Stewart,

    it's simply that you feel your voice must be heard.

    Woe is me, for I feel the wish to express my opinion in a forum expressly designed for that purpose, occasionally with the use of logic and example to back up my points! Excuse me while I go reign in my roaring ego.

    Look, if you're going to troll, it's much more fun for everyone if some logic is involved in your arguments. Otherwise, fish, barrel, wasted afternoon, pick your metaphor.

    Amherst, MA • Since Nov 2006 • 2093 posts Report Reply

  • Shep Cheyenne,

    Lucy - yip guys do the bunk all the time & that needs to be addressed, not just by the Tax department either. In my eyes it amounts to child abandonment and is a form of abuse.

    Any thoughts on the prospect of adoption as part of an alternative to abortion?

    Since Oct 2007 • 927 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    How do we know you're serious in that enquiry mark, and not merely seeking to wind people up for kicks?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2968 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    you missed the logic?

    i'll say it again

    in cases where there was no instance of rape, sexual abuse or protection, used then the man should have the right to a mediated and counselled stay of execution of that child.

    and i'm thinking especially in a marriage or civil union

    the logic being that by requiring the men by law to play a larger post coital role in the childs development or lack of, in the hopes of encouraging more actively responsible attitude towards sexual intercourse.

    which part of the logic is problematic for you lucy?

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    i'm thinking of issues such as a married couple, decided to make a baby, bun in the oven a month down the track they have an argument over what to have for tea, harsh words aired, wife goes out and gets an abortion, and what can be done to prevent that?

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    then two months later, everything back on track, loving words said, they make a go for mark II, but again a month later, tommy husband driving home from work, runs over the cat, wife goes out and gets another abortion....

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

  • mark taslov,

    then perhaps, a year later, tommy's had a promotion, come home with flowers, dosed up his wife of merlot, makes some of the right moves, lands another homerun, two weeks later his wife watches a moving episode of oprah, rushes out for another abortion

    your taxed dollar • Since Mar 2008 • 1679 posts Report Reply

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