Hard News: Misquote Unquote
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We argueably have a better picture of what North Korea is and it's
pretty distressing. Starving your nation is one thing, brianwashing them at infancy to unswervingly accept the divine words of the 'dear leader" is literally a form of imposed madness, a calculated imposition.It's very sick. -
uhhh...brainwashing...a life of brianwashing is a christian/monty python concept but similar in it's delivery if not it's impact.
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similar as in "he's not a divine leader, he's just a very naughty boy"?
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similar as in "he's not a divine leader, he's just a very naughty boy"?
I lol'd.
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Meanwhile, congratulations to John Roughan for the most disgusting China-related brain-fart in this Weekend Herald column:
We might never have been to the Ureweras, have no plans ever to go and not much idea of what the nation might lose, but we would fight for its integrity. Why then is it so hard to credit China's attitude to Tibet, Sudan's to Darfur or, closer to home, Indonesia's to East Timor?
When after the Timorese independence referendum Indonesian paramilitaries set about the destruction of every road, school and hospital they built, I thought they had a point. Indonesia by all accounts had given East Timor much more than the Portuguese had left behind.
There's certainly room for provocative devil's advocacy, but I'd really like Roughan to think thinks through just a little further. PErhaps he'd be a little less sanguine of the last act of the outgoing Labour government would be to bomb to the ground everything that was built on their watch, just to stick it to the ungrateful voters.
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Why then is it so hard to credit China's attitude to Tibet, Sudan's to Darfur or, closer to home, Indonesia's to East Timor?
Roughan's analogy module needs some refinement.
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Roughan's analogy module needs some refinement.
It needs an urgent upgrade until Roughan stops 'seeing the point' of torching hospitals. Columnists tend to benefit from coming back to that frightfully clever extended analogy after twenty-four hours. As often as not, it doesn't look quite so smart.
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Columnists tend to benefit from coming back to that frightfully clever extended analogy after twenty-four hours. As often as not, it doesn't look quite so smart.
I'd struggle to see how it looked clever two seconds after it was typed. What a dick.
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Nice thread, very entertaining to read Sue's musings on 'Chinese atrocities', as if the police killing of the unarmed (or with hammer?) dissenter in Christchurch last September wasn't the statistical equivalent of 350 dropped Chinese. Question I've got, if anyone can answer is, how many western countries equals 1.4 billion people? If you've got that number, how many westerners from these countries were beaten, brutalized or killed by police during the ten or so days in which the media and so on were clucking red furry about this thing in Tibet?
place your bets....
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When after the Timorese independence referendum Indonesian paramilitaries set about the destruction of every road, school and hospital they built, I thought they had a point.
Oh.
My.
God. -
Oh.
My.
God.I was thinking of a being who traditionally lives in the basement, not the penthouse. :)
If you've got that number, how many westerners from these countries were beaten, brutalized or killed by police during the ten or so days in which the media and so on were clucking red furry about this thing in Tibet?
Well, I'd note that 'Anglosphere' tends to have a more transparent and robust culture than China when it comes to public scrutiny and criticism of the government, armed forces and police. I don't see anyone seriously arguing that Tibet was some Shangri-La or 'the West' is a faultless paradise. But Louis Brandeis sure had a point when he wrote "sunlight is the best disinfectant" -- though in these parts, I'm sure there are plenty who'd disagree.
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Mr Crawford, I'd be interested to hear under what criteria you define India as a western country. In the name of geography, philosophy or sociology I'd go more for Europe and the colonies as an easy answer. but geography isn't a must.
With regard to Tibet, all i can really say, is "so what?" there are small uprisings on a regular basis and the western media never bats an eyelid, I didn't notice too much of a kerfuffle about the attempted highjacking last month in Xin Jiang. Just as I'm yet to hear of the communist party implementing a 'war on terror'.
The western media takes little or no interest in any of these kinds of events unless they occur in somewhere kiwis can pronounce, or have had hollywood movies starring Brad Pitt made about them. For me it's just like "what do you care?" Your war on terror, your suppression of terrorism act and its amendment, will surely safekeep your grandchildrens' futures.
NZ has police shooting dissenters. You can argue that it's not the statistical equivalent, but running a head count and respecting the fact that the Chinese government has to deal with 350 times the amount of people is relevant. That puts the 21 killings by New Zealand police since 1941, up to 7350 per head of population.
I know what you're saying Mr Crawford, human life is human life, but for a government, of any nation, big or small, the greater good of the masses is the priority, You'd like to feel you're more than part of a statistic. You'd like to believe you're Remington Steel, you want numbers? on carnage? For what purpose? To satisfy which primal urge? To inform us that less people died during the same period in western countries like India?
Basically you're never gonna get those carnage statistics you hunger for sir, because for the Chinese view this kind of perversion you inherently believe to be a freedom of information as no more civilized than buying tickets to watch the gladiators. It's not as if the great firewall extends so far that the Chinese people can't read the headlines undermining the NZ police force.
Mr Ranapia, re: the 'Anglosphere', I know what you're saying but looking at this article where you have police spokesman Ms Manderson saying "the man advanced on the police officer with a hammer and was shot after being warned", then you have eyewitnesses Amanda Duke and Kieran Cross stating "We pulled into the driveway and there were two men standing there not moving. Then one was shot, he had his hands by his sides at the time,"-
- the 'more'ness of this transparency is negligible in this example. I feel it is relevant to question how much the scrutiny and criticism did and is doing to shield that guy and future 'mentally ill' guys from a couple of NZ bullets.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10466181
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Well, I'd note that 'Anglosphere' tends to have a more transparent and robust culture than China when it comes to public scrutiny and criticism of the government, armed forces and police.
This weekend, I've been finding quite a few instances where our supposedly free-and-fair Western media has been pretty much making stuff up about Tibet.
We can justly complain about the Chinese government's attitude to press freedom, but our media culture doesn't really bear scrutiny on this one. You'd be surprised how many pictures of Chinese security forces brutalising protesters actually aren't that at all.
But you'll all have to wait for a certain TV show on Wednesday night ...
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"define India as a western country"
My paternal gene type is centred on western europe with the closest off shoot going to india.
There are some real holes in the genebase - apparently I'm Han Chinese as well.
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"NZ has police shooting dissenters"
Mark you're totally off it here. Raids, arrests, and intimidation of dissenters in NZ has all happened, but not shootings. A half ass apology from NZs top cop Howard Broad was reported today regarding that as well.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10500960
As you have gone on to say it was the mentally ill who often buy the bullet from NZ police & there is a bit of truth in that.
Ms Manderson was the top cop in Christchurch (Canterbury Region) & is now the NZ Police rep in Washington DC dodging the bullets around NZ Army Officers, the FBI, & duty free booze.
She does need elocution leasons though.
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Mr Cheyenne,congratulations on the DNA. Dissent as a term, you can interpret as you wish, choosing one example of opposition to the status quo over another seems and is trivial. The guy was given instructions, he dissented, they dropped him.
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Mr Ranapia, re: the 'Anglosphere', I know what you're saying but looking at this article where you have police spokesman Ms Manderson saying "the man advanced on the police officer with a hammer and was shot after being warned", then you have eyewitnesses Amanda Duke and Kieran Cross stating "We pulled into the driveway and there were two men standing there not moving. Then one was shot, he had his hands by his sides at the time,"-
Mr Taslov:
I'd draw your attention to this very blog where we're had free, frank (and often overheated) debates around the Urewera Raids, tasers, the Louise Nicholas trial and the fate of Clint Rickard. I've also not-so-politely suggested that if the likes of Greg O'Connor don't like that degree of public scrutiny and criticism of the police force they can go get stuffed.
I don't see why the New Zealand Police should be any more perfect that any other human institution, but anyone who feels inclined to take for granted the open society we enjoy here should think again.
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Mr Ranapia, I hear you, I've been reading, for a while, I'm in two minds about the criticism and public scrutiny, in that I'm down with everyman chipping in, but I have serious misgivings about the role of private media, exploiting a good story to make a buck.
While the article i linked above makes for interesting and informative reading, the north/south structure really makes a go of second guessing police action, and it's my humble opinion that any society can only withstand so much anti authority propaganda, before the fabric starts to disseminate. Don't get me wrong, I'm a keen GTA player, but it's a personal choice, Rockstar games aren't making much of a stand to hyphenate their vision for profit with 'the truth'.
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I know what you're saying Mr Crawford, human life is human life, but for a government, of any nation, big or small, the greater good of the masses is the priority, You'd like to feel you're more than part of a statistic.
An argument that is no doubt reassuring to the millions of Chinese who have been killed by their state in the past sixty years.
Wait, that was just a statistic. I've confounded myself.
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Mr Ranapia, I hear you, I've been reading, for a while, I'm in two minds about the criticism and public scrutiny, in that I'm down with everyman chipping in, but I have serious misgivings about the role of private media, exploiting a good story to make a buck.
Well, I find that infinitely preferable to state media acting as a propaganda arm.
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" it's my humble opinion that any society can only withstand so much anti authority propaganda, before the fabric starts to disseminate"
Mark Taslov - That is a vital part of our democracy. Our Govt serves or changes on the will of the people.
Although in my opinion Govt holds too much power, I do have the chance every 3 yrs to bring it down. In NZ we generally bring Govts down rather than vote better ones in.
This medium we are on is commercial and attracks randoms like myself, the over educated, along with Cabinet Ministers, all communicating in the same forum. Radio NZ is very good, a non-commercial Govt funded media. It does great pod cast so you can listen in Beijing as well.
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Mr Matthews, or how about the 1000s of New Zealanders dead through war and disease since the inception of the NZ state? Why just 60 years? That reeks of blanket anti communist party dismissal. We can't tell the dead of anywhere anything. unless you're of the religious persuasion, in which case, you tell them. I don't mean to cast aspersions, but really, what's your point?
-I don't dispute that private stakeholders profiting by delivering a version of the truth is a vital part of your democracy Mr Cheyenne. But I'm not convinced your democracy is a vital part of your freedom. A freedom that implicates you personally for any wrongdoing your party manifests while in power, is about as free as a mortgage. That's a two sided coin your voting for, you already knew that. I'd challenge you to cite these 'better ones' you voted in, but you can't, it's just food colouring, a blue/red strobe light from this angle.
I'm as much in awe of your attack medium as I was of your DNA, who's preaching to who here? As Mr Brown mentioned earlier, it's hard to know what the Chinese are saying on their forums and where general consensus and discussions are centered, and from what angles, whereas they are reading and listening to your thoughts via podcasts, and forums etc. They've seen your cards. Your cards look like this:
7 or so years ago, two planes crashed into a couple of buildings in a foreign city 1000s of miles away causing 3 perfect building implosions, belying everything you'd previously been told and believed about the precise science of demolition, The upshot for you was, government legislation and an ammendment, microchips in your passports and increased airport security, basically, greater freedom for the law abiding citizen.
From my perspective, within a state controlled media framework, people seem more inclined to take the news with a grain of salt (or disbelieve it altogether), freeing them in part from that nagging 'we can/can't make a difference' mentality. In the main, this can't be said for countries driven by pivotal free enterprise commercial media, where the populace seems far more likely to take the news as gospel. Again to reference the Herald article i linked to above:
So you know the police and the eyewitnesses have conflicting stories, so how are you freer? Does it make you feel better? Is this information able to help you concentrate more on your daily life? -
Mr Matthews, or how about the 1000s of New Zealanders dead through war and disease since the inception of the NZ state? Why just 60 years? That reeks of blanket anti communist party dismissal. We can't tell the dead of anywhere anything. unless you're of the religious persuasion, in which case, you tell them. I don't mean to cast aspersions, but really, what's your point?
That killing large numbers of people for the 'greater good of the masses' is crap, no matter where it happens, and under what regime.
That's not anti-communism, that's having some humanity.
Also crap, the expectation that you need to line up your credentials of attacking every other country in the world that has done wrong, before pointing out one in particular. Crap is crap no matter how many other bits of crap you've pointed at in the past week.
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I'm not attacking any country Mr Matthews. I'm simply contending that; those antagonized by free media into presuming those administered state media suffer the same media addiction and wholesale unsophisitication, could consider increasing their salt intake before espousing the malignancy of state media.
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Mark - sorry I can't get into titles. I don't want to start addressing people as Dr etc, but I do appreciate the politeness. Whoops - attracks should read attracts in my earlier comment.
I agree with a bit of what you've said. Democracy doesn't equal freedom and two parties instead of one party isn't a great improvement in democracy.
I don't agree a people should be held responsible for a Govts decisions. The Govt must take responsibility, it comes with the power.
Most peoples recall will differ to one degree or another and be entirely honest and truthful. That they can express it makes us all free.
In NZ 'You' really can make a difference. Manapouri Power scheme is where ordinary Kiwis rallied togeather to save the environment and still generate hydropower.
The issue was Hydropower vs the Environment. The area was to be flooded and much of the beauty lost. A compromise came to keep the lake at the same level with better engineering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manapouri_Power_StationWe really do feel we can effect change.
Yep, we're all well aware of how absurd the post 9/11 laws are. All they really needed to do was ban box cutters on flights. It is very strange they were allowed in the 1st place.
And not all of our media are believed or are honest and we all hold bias even when trying to be objective.
As for the DNA I'm not sure it's that accurate or it may be that we are all very closely related and any difference is purely subjective?
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