I admit to a large amount of ignorance as to how the travel perk scheme works. Is Taito Philip Field still entitled to it?

No. The privilege is stripped from MPs who commit offences such as his.

@barnacle, no there has never been anything to say that the travel perk for former MPs would continue forever. As Russell notes, it started in 1972. The perk,?

Russell?s post highlights an anomaly? if someone resigns in shame from being caught defrauding the perks? they should not?

Field and Roger McClay lost their entitlement when convicted.

It took a ruling from the Speaker for that to happen, though. Field initially stood to retain the perk despite his conviction.

Taito Philip Feild who was found guilty in court of abusing his position should also not be able to draw on any perks he ?earned? access to in his time in that position.

He can't. The Speaker ruled that conviction for dishonesty offences related to the office of MP or?

As Phil Goff notes in Claire Trevett?s story in the Herald today, there are legitimate uses for the travel rebate beyond a strict definition of Parliamentary business, or what leaders? budgets are able to cover. I do want MPs to have contact with the world.

Would that include the taxpayer?

My suggestion was simply that we examine costs and benefits, rather than embarking on knee-jerk actions to make unhappy headlines go away.

The chances of any calm, reasoned, careful debate which takes in all sides are basically nil this week, as we're a year out from an election and both?

...we, as taxpayers, will cover 75% of the cost of her business class travel anywhere in the world for the rest of her life.

This, I'm assuming, is on top of whatever pension, superannuation / kiwi saver scheme they may be part of...

The only ceiling or?

I can?t help feeling the ingrained racism of NZ in this

Nonsense, this is very equal pillorying and blowtorch application. Think back to Rodney Hide, Roger Douglas and Chris Carter.

I don?t recall the specifics but I?m pretty sure he was allowed free bus, train and maybe airline travel, anywhere/anytime sort of thing.

Ironic given the controversy around the $30K or so that he got reimbursed for taxis one year, that he ever incurred any other travel expenses.

Oh the halcyon days when no-one gave a tinker's cuss about any of these pesky expenses!

I'd also love to know how many public sector PASers out there, have had to pay for their professionally relevant "contact with the world" out of their own pockets or constrained and tightly audited budgets?

Well, I did have to pay my way, once again, to the recent SPADA conference?

I used to have a couple of licenses that were given to me "for?

Plenty of above average wage increases since then knocks the first claim on the head

But if the 1972 trade-off had not been made then MPs would be earning more now, every increase since then would have gone on top of what ever they would have recieved in 1972 instead?

Dean Knight, a senior lecturer in public law at Victoria University, said while MPs were not technically employees whose perks were in contracts, it would be difficult to remove them without compensation.

He said a case could?

Dean Knight, a senior lecturer in public law at Victoria University, said while MPs were not technically employees whose perks were in contracts, it would be difficult to remove them without compensation.

He said a case could be made for stripping Taito Phillip Field of the privilege on the grounds?

A range of MPs were tweeting on Saturday about the perk, including Tau, Heather Roy, Metiria, and Chris Hipkins. There may have been others too

They were, yes, I was just interested that it appeared to me that Tau started the discussion.

The president of the Association of Former Members of Parliament, Graham Kelly, said this week that the association would defend any attempt to strip the perk from ex-MPs, describing it as a legal entitlement and part of their conditions of employment.

Bunkum. Utter bunkum. MPs are not employees. And the?

[EDIT: One might suggest we have slipped a teeny weeny bit.]

We have the 1st equal possie for a reason. We have some of the most un-influenced (bribe, cash, graft or favour) MPs, Judiciary, Police, Public Service and businesses in the world.?

If you pay people in high places peanuts, you invite influence.

If we take away the travel perk, what's left is $130 000 – $393 000 worth of peanuts.

There may be good arguments for replacing the travel perk with a pile of cash, "they're being paid peanuts" isn't one?

If $450k is the price to allow (any) MP to trip the world fantastic after their ?service to their country? one might then argue it is a small price to pay for this standing in the World.

Why? Everyone else is expected to remain uncorrupt for free.

I feel kind of squicky defending Pete Hodgson?s honour (mostly because I don?t think he?s got any)

Well, that shows how little you know about him. Given that's he been Dunedin North MP since 1990 and has always enjoyed one of the biggest majorities in Parliament, his constituents clearly do?

He is a very, very well-respected and effective MP for Dunedin North. He has done a lot of very honourable work for the electorate, as it happens.

He was also Helen Clark's attack dog for several years, which might be Craig's reason for not being quite so much in favour.

attack dog

With a performance like this one in Question Time today, I doubt the government are quaking in their boots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvEO6x1VnZY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp3r4-74Rc4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-dL2w3v87k

Hodgson led with the (relatively) innocuous one — the witness signatures in China — to get Key to dismiss the accusations, then dropped the travel stuff.

Now it appears she's been spruiking?

Labour Party MP Pete Hodgson says a Chinese local government?

Just being careful he?s not the one saying some of what must?

-but as a once-working journalist, I know you rely on tip-offs, from local body & national politicians for really meaty stuff.

And yes, it was probably a tip from disgruntled business contacts. That's usually the case in these situations.

disgruntled

Exactly

Mr Yang is supposedly the current president of the NZCBA ? New Zealand China Business Association (in spite of the out of date website listing) ? and you would naturally expect the man in this position to be the very epitome of business ethics and honesty.

...naturally?

I can?t help feeling the ingrained racism of NZ in this

Yeah, I?ve been pushing the Institutional Racism angle all along. Work-Life Balance is such a pakeha concept ? ?business is business and holidays are holidays and never the twain etc?. I?ll bet the Wongs have never taken a holiday?

Yang is a con-artist, the Wongs might not have known what they were walking into on those trips to China

I don't know, One would hope The Minister of Ethnic Affairs may have been astute enough to not make deals and not allow her husband to make deals with a?

You shouldn't lose your superannuation for anything other than defrauding the superannuation system.

Sweet, so I'm still entitled to retire at 60, then. After all, I've been paying taxes since it was 60, so it should be impossible to ever make any negative changes!

The idea that a New Zealand-Chinese businessman would take a holiday in China without doing a bit of wheeling and dealing on the side is ridiculous

I do wonder at parallels with cultural aspects of the Field case, but it?s taking a backseat to my interest in the current attempts?

Yeah, I?ve been pushing the Institutional Racism

Pushing the idea that people of Chinese descent are incapable of doing their jobs without resorting to corrupt practise is, indeed, a pretty racist notion.

To further address the whole "MPs must be treated like employees", well, if only.

I'm employed by a?

compared with the average non-MP civil servant

Yes, the contrast of unapologetic troughing with the austerity they prescribe for others is dramatic. And should be of concern to every good MP in the interests of rescuing their mana.

Now it appears she?s been spruiking ? as a minister ? for her husband?s hovercraft company on a Chinese local government website.

I?d keep using ?appears?, Russell. National?s certainly has a few egg facials courtesy of taking ?disgruntled business contacts? at face value. I'd note Hodgson has (very wisely) been?

If you pay people in high places peanuts, you invite influence.

There is already influence. It's called "election contributions".

Yang is a con-artist, the Wongs might not have known what they were walking into on those trips to China and the local govt media spin might have been more to do with Yang than reality.

Strangest thing about that Dirty debtors page you linked to Neil, is that for?

One would hope The Minister of Ethnic Affairs may have been astute enough...

one would, but she does appear to have not been. It's poor judgement but not quite what Labour are suggesting.

Hodgson needs to come up with something more than a half-translated piece from a local chinese govt?

Neil, I don?t see how you?re in a position to say so confidently that this situation is not what has been suggested

I've got to ask why you're so confident that it is?

Karma. I remember the endless onslaught visited on Winston Peters and on Phillip Field and others and?

Ah, you mean the Philip Field who is currently in prison after an exhaustive (and exhausting) investigation of the allegations against him, and a fair trial which resulted in Field?s conviction?

Well, quite.

A better option might be David Parker, whose Wishart-fuelled "scandal" saw him step down from his post?

Neil, I don?t see how you?re in a position to say so confidently that this situation is not what has been suggested

I?ve got to ask why you?re so confident that it is?

Given the simply dreadful judgement she's shown thus far, it would seem unwise to predict there are?

YMMV, but if it was up to me having your husband?s company registered at the same address as your electorate office is bad enough when it comes to a sackable #judgementfail.

Yes — the other misdemeanours require some interpretation, to be sure. But the address thing was just a crazy?

But she showed enough poor judgement to be out of cabinet.

This just a part of Labour's stratgey?

(h/t @vaughndavis via Twitter)

On the occasion of the 5th anniversary
of the death of Rod Donald, MP,
__"Democracy is New Zealand:
Lost, Stolen or Just Misplaced?"__?

You shouldn?t lose your superannuation for anything other than defrauding the superannuation system.

Sweet, so I?m still entitled to retire at 60, then. After all, I?ve been paying taxes since it was 60, so it should be impossible to ever make any negative changes!

Not what I meant, and you?

Perception is not always fully aligned with reality. Without proper public registers and accounts, like those rodgerd suggested – "...a register of all gifts and donations each MP recieves? Who signs off on whether MPs can recieve gifts and donations? Where?s the register of expenses? Where?

I?ve got to ask why you?re so confident that it is?

The consensus at this stage by those who cover such matters supports that belief.
Sure it's politicised and some elements may turn out to be overblown, but it seems highly unlikely that things are as innocent as Mr Key?

The consensus at this stage by those who cover such matters supports that belief.

Ah yes, Sacha — and when did you start exhibiting such a touching faith in the impeccable judgement of the media?

[[http://dirtydebtors.co.nz/description.php?descriptionID=9000206|Mr Yang presumably has NZ residency by virtue of money invested in NZ. He owns NZ registered companies, SNT Investments Ltd and New Zealand China Zhejiang Chamber of Commerce Ltd, and is the majority shareholder in New?

I really don't like our close relationship with China. It's in their favour more than ours, I think. And I'm sure it's going to bite us HARD in the ass eventually. They will own us, our land, our politicans, everything.

Many of you may well think that sounds xenophobic,?

Fuckers.

Ahh, pick a country, any country. Right, not just China is it.
Remember the Opiyum trade? The West has a fucking lot to answer for. Why pick on China.? We can't all be white and middle class . Even this Mexican. ;)

And, for me, it's not about being white and middle class. I enjoy the many colours NZ's immigrants from?

Why are a New Zealand MP and former PM cooperating with Yang rather than Preest?

why does anyone get conned? Yang is probably a very smooth talker.

I think initially the Wongs saw themselves as comming to the assistance of a NZ business in trouble. But then they set things?

I?m picking on China because of our close economic ties with that brutal regime. China is our ?best friend?, but it has nefarious interest in the Pacific, I tell you! Nefarious!

I understand that Petra. Just suggesting that many countries shit on many other countries and we are really small?

Plus, as an amateur photographer, I would LOVE to travel China with my camera. Hell, yes.

Also, I'm a bit pissy at the moment because Ai Weiwei has been paced under house arrest for the political statements?

Why are a New Zealand MP and former PM cooperating with Yang rather than Preest?

why does anyone get conned? Yang is probably a very smooth talker.

No he's not. I posted his phone number on the other page, try him, he's a very nervous man with poor English who?

I think initially the Wongs saw themselves as comming to the assistance of a NZ business in trouble.

Based on what, Neil?

Also, I?m a bit pissy at the moment because Ai Weiwei has been paced under house arrest

But Aung San Suu Kyi (Burmese: ???????????????;
is FREE!

There's a very significant entitlement mentality at work...

It has become a rort of passage!

I'm happy for Aung San Suu Kyi, though. Bloody long time coming.

All of them stained by the blood of hovercraft.

Out thou damm spot!

Free the higher profile prisoner and lock up a few not so well known ones.

Hey, gotta earn ya stripes.

Petra, I'd be interested to hear how exactly you think China is screwing us?

China owning "our" (not sure some of the Tangata Whenua?

China is expanding it?s power in the Pacific, through the pen rather than the sword.

Which makes one hell of a change for the good, from a historical perspective, no?

I hope he's right.

But seriously, you are right that China is an emerging power. And yes, I would?

Independent corroboration? Pffft.

As for the MAD doctrine, it doesn't matter a stitch in me knickers whether I personally believe in it or not (I don't), but it does matter if those?

Military battles are?

Very clever, bringing us back on topic like that...

Also, I?m a bit pissy at the moment because Ai Weiwei has been paced under house arrest

free!

heartening.

On both counts. :)

Though it could go a little further in the second link, re pre-1999 PM perks, I think.

That will go down well with the voters on Struggle Street.

As the unquestioned authority on Parliament, McGee, says "members [of Parliament] are in law neither employees nor self-employed"

No contract so no retrospectivity.

A member of Parliament holds a statutory office. Members are not (except for certain tax purposes) employees in an employment relationship, nor?

And by implication you are saying that holders of statutory offices did not enter into a contract.

Correct, 100% correct, in relation to Parliament.

Suppose a person stands for Parliament, becomes an MP, and then the Remuneration Authority produces a determination halving MPs' salaries, there is not a damn thing?

But it seems that there is expressly no contractual salary-duties relationship for MPs because it was?

No contract so no retrospectivity.

What about Residuals ?
Think how much the Muldoon and Lange estates could be making from those "snap election "and "uranium breath" clips...

The section you cite is about taxation. Umm ok. Minor detail.
The ?contract? in the first quote refered to is an employment contract.

Your reading is flawed, I think.

A member of Parliament holds a statutory office. Members are not (except for certain tax purposes) employees in an employment relationship,?

Dunno, its John Key and Lockwood Smith who are ?relaxed? about rules that will allow Pansy Wong to keep a lifetime entitlement to business class travel when she leaves Parliament.

With all due respect, Phil, there's plenty of evidence that opposition parties have been positively sedated about the status quo.?

Suppose a person stands for Parliament, becomes an MP, and then the Remuneration Authority produces a determination halving MPs? salaries, there is not a damn thing the MP can do. They cannot sue.

Well, actually there is a pretty frigging big "something" they can do — [[http://www.ssc.govt.nz/display/document.asp?DocID=7102|amend or repeal the?

On Nov. 4, Anderson Cooper did the country a favor. He expertly deconstructed on his CNN show the bogus rumor that President Obama?s trip to Asia would cost $200 million a day. This was an?

You're right that they all play this game but that doesn't mean you can't bitch the incumbents. Were it a Labour govt, you'd be doing just as much bitching (oh, yes you would – if?

Fuck.

There are depths I never thought I'd sink to and yet here we are.

What I am saying the contract is just simply about being?

If the RA is changed so as to disallow pre-1999 ex-MP?s from continuing to claim travel perks from, say, this day forward, how is that retroactively cutting salaries? And what are they having to pay back? Because all?

But I?ll share this with you, anyway. I?m good like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQWPR9TM0Gk

yeah confusing.

The RA sets MPs salaries but it doesn't set their post-retirement travel entitlement. It has no say on this perk.

What Phil and nzlemming are saying is that there is no contractual relationship between MPs and Parliament, therefore the Speaker can arbitrarily remove the travel perk.

I?

The RA has the authority to cut the current salary of an MP. It cannot retroactively cut the salary and demand the MP pays it back.

No-one said it did. You are the only person who has raised this as a concept for discussion. You are correct – the RA?

my university gives me a lump sum every three years, which allows for around one overseas conference a year. Some of my colleagues regard such funding as a right; I regard it as a privilege (I?

What I still don?t get is how stopping pre-1999 ex-MP?s from receiving those perks is retroactively cutting their salaries and making them pay something back.

I?m not trying to be difficult here ? I?

McGee says there is no employment contract. That is because the salary-for-service exchange is covered by legislation.He does not say there is no contract at all between Parliament and an MP. If you can show me where McGee says there is no contractual relationship whatsoever, I will?

Given that the perk existed when a pre-1999 MP went into Parliament, they became an MP an the expectation that they would receive this perk. In fact, any MP who entered before its removal would be in?

What I still don?t get is how stopping pre-1999 ex-MP?s from receiving those perks is retroactively cutting their salaries and making them pay something back.

I don't get it either, Peta. Last year, my partner left KiwiRail after working there, in all its Doctor Who-like incarnations, for forty five years.?

Honestly, I find it rather disingenuous of MPs to pretend that they're hapless victims of a body whose role and powers are strictly delimited by legislation.

...and how they never seem to think the same should apply to the Lumpen Proletariat – the Remuneration Authority should also set wage levels?

and how they never seem to think the same should apply to the Lumpen Proletariat

I can't imagine anyone would be happy if an employer, post you leaving your work, went in and reduced what is effectively a private superannuation that was part of the employment agreement.

Seems to me?

When I worked for Yellow Pages, we absolutely creamed our targets one year. Up until then, bonuses paid on selling over target were not capped. A number of?

?We?ve gone beyond Stephen Colbert?s? truthiness? into a ?truth-be-damned? environment; what Rick Perlstein described in the Daily Beast as a ?mendocracy. As in, rule by liars.?.?

?The scary thing is, these kinds of rumors have a way of taking root in the popular consciousness [?]?

Put simply, I think some people think that natural justice only covers the folk they like.

You'll be aksing us to respect used car salespeople next :)

You?ll be aksing us to respect used car salespeople next :)

heh. "Some of my best friends are used car salespeople..."

?Some of my best friends are used car salespeople??

so?

I?d be interested to hear how exactly you think China is screwing us?

A Chinese born MP (Huáng Xú Yùf?ng), rorting 1000s of tax payer dollars, involving herself in very questionable business activities, could be perceived as China screwing us.?

Or if you would prefer to see the link ? http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4455775/MP-Pansy-Wong-quits-Parliament.

I had assumed Chris had done that deliberately.

Yes. Sorry Sam, I was going for the symbolic full stop. Ultimately just another exhibition of my own twatcockery.

Oh, I wasn't referring to Chris' fullstop comment when I said 'please delete' – rather my own which I realised was a superfluous goof not long after posting ... sorry for the confusion Chris!