Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: #NetHui: it's all about you

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  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    Actually I found your description helped my understanding of the other usage.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Anything that limits our obsession with recycling stuff honestly at this point is fine by me.

    Well that's a shame. We would surely have missed out on M.I.A.'s excellent "Paper Planes" under your rules.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Actually, the root is exactly the same. I see no reason to be confused.

    Pffft, you’re just showing your perfect-english-speaking privilege.

    (Sorry. I am slightly punch-drunk)

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    And the thing is, being “called out” sucks, but you can choose to look at it two ways – “hey, I’m learning, here’s this thing I didn’t know, and I can try to be better for it”, or “Bite me! You don’t know me. I’m not ableist/sexist/homophobic”.

    I regret to say I went for the latter. But then one learns. It also helps to have kind teachers I must say.

    Pffft, you’re just showing your perfect-english-speaking privilege.

    Actually, that’s Latin :-)

    (ETA: which, just to square the circle, I got via my working class education. There.)

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    I regret to say I went for the latter. But then one learns. It also helps to have kind teachers I must say.

    As have I, on a number of occasions. And it took, as you say, kindly teachers to point out where I was going wrong. This is why I care about privilege not being used to shut down debate, cos if we all did a little learnin' we'd all be better off.

    And then I could teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony. God, I am so naive.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Geoff Lealand,

    I suggested that Sky employing Tony O'Brien as a full-time lobbyist representing their interests in Parliament was a case of "unusual influence" in NZ politics (deflecting potential regulation of Sky's monopoly position, for example). Several pollies there (including Sue Kedgely) didn't seem to think it was a problem but it is interesting that John Drinnan has also pointed to it as an issue worthy of attention.

    I don't want to sound like I'm bagging on Drinnan, but what do you think the odds are of APN going full disclosure on their lobbying and *cough* corporate hospitality of politicians? YMMV, but I'm open to the idea of requiring lobbyists to be on a public register (and I don't give a shit if they happen to be the BRT, Chen Palmer or the CTU), but it's the soft corruption of the disco round that makes me nervous.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Don Christie,

    We would surely have missed out on M.I.A.'s excellent "Paper Planes" under your rules.

    We're getting covers, nothing but covers all the time, under the current supposedly inhibitory rules. Really the idea that our culture doesn't produce enough mashups is hard to credit.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __,

    There's a thing that can happen in internet forums more easily than in RL conversations, where everyone can talk about their own experience, and we can have a range of voices. It's when we start generalising or attempting to speak for others that it goes to custard, especially if we assume those others are like ourselves. This is one of the most maddening things that happens in the feminist blogosphere, where one feminist decides to speak on behalf of all feminists, or all women.

    I've always liked the saying, "Everyone's a minority". As others have said, most of us are privileged in some ways but not in others. It's always worth thinking about how other people's perspectives might differ from our own, but unless we actually ask them what they think or how they feel, we can't know.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3895 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    few of the sites I write for are 101 sites, and that's clearly stated - so it gets irritating when someone crashes into a conversation with no understanding of what, say, rape culture is.

    I have to say that i find the division of discussion between 101 and not 101 a bit intimidating at times. There's a feeling that somewhere along the line I need to pass an exam before I'll be allowed to play with the big kids. I totally understand not wanting to explain the in-group language over and over again and I always google unfamiliar terms before leaping in but there have been a number of times where I've felt someone is using a term in a way that is slightly different from the definition I know or that, with the best will in the world, I'm not quite seeing their point and I find it really hard to judge the point at which I can ask without being told "we don't do 101".

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart, in reply to Isabel Hitchings,

    Two pages, so much good stuff. What Andre said. And also, about the quickest way to make a dick of yourself (Alright, just one of a myriad) is to get all offended on behalf of a groupd you don't belong to.

    Sure, but having said that, we get pretty bored of having to explain these concepts to people who should know better. And from my perspective as a feminist blogger, few of the sites I write for are 101 sites, and that's clearly stated - so it gets irritating when someone crashes into a conversation with no understanding of what, say, rape culture is.

    And this is where Megan and I will differ. I have this basic utilitarian approach to pretty much everything: what do I want, how do I get it, is what I'm doing helping me towards that goal? Works on the internet, works in bars...

    So yeah, I spend a lot of time here explaining what terms mean, words I've used for so long I didn't twig to them needing explaining. And I'll keep doing that until they have to prise my keyboard from my arthritic fingers, because what I want is for people to understand. They don't have to agree, I just want them to understand.

    It also means being gracious when nice people make mistakes, because everybody does. I do. You have to give people room to take Megan's second option. (Yes, yes, I just giggled smuttily.)

    But while I understand the weariness with the explaining, I can't understand the point in pushing people out, in excluding them from conversations. All of these things - mansplaining, tone argument, etc - were originated to further discussion. Now we've come to a point where they're being used to shut it down. And shutting down conversation is bad, m'kay?

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4651 posts Report Reply

  • recordari, in reply to st ephen,

    See Cisgender.

    Umm, yeah, I found that. That would have been the perfect opportunity for this, which is another form of 'schooling'*, although way funnier than most.

    <redacted>

    Out of context. Apart from the 'How to make a dick of yourself' advice above.

    ETA: I really do wish you could fix reply to errors after posting. st ephen = Russell B.

    AUCKLAND • Since Dec 2009 • 2607 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    And then I could teach the world to sing,
    in perfect harmony.

    I am enjoying the Choir currently on UKTV
    - it really should be on Free-to-air

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia, in reply to Emma Hart,

    And also, about the quickest way to make a dick of yourself (Alright, just one of a myriad) is to get all offended on behalf of a groupd you don’t belong to.

    And the masterclass in that particular form of arseholism is what I like to call Borgism: “Good” members of Collective Noun X. must adopt position Y. on subject Z. or get smote with the waggling finger of bad consciousness. Just don’t do it, m’kay? (And, seriously, isn’t it something of a no-brainer not to walk onto any feminist blog and say hello with a cry of “yo, you bitches really need to chill out and focus on some real issuez”? Whether you intentionally set out to flame-troll, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that’s probably not going to be greeted with tea, cookies and an annotated abstract of the discussion so far and a reading list.)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 12370 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Emma Hart,

    I always google unfamiliar terms before leaping in but there have been a number of times where I've felt someone is using a term in a way that is slightly different from the definition I know or that, with the best will in the world, I'm not quite seeing their point and I find it really hard to judge the point at which I can ask without being told "we don't do 101".

    Yeah, but there's a way to ask, you know? (And I am not pointing this at you, at all) A lot of the time, the question seems to be "what right do you have to call me privileged, you big meanie!", rather than - "hey, help me learn here, what am I doing wrong?"

    So yeah, I spend a lot of time here explaining what terms mean, words I've used for so long I didn't twig to them needing explaining.

    And I am happy to do that here, too, because this isn't an explicitly feminist space, and it's also a learning space. I just think if you're gonna turn up at feminist blogs, sitting back and listening, and learning some of the terms before you go all "Here's how you are wrong!" might be a way forward.

    But yeah, God knows we all make mistakes. I'm not perfect, nor is anyone I know. (I also feel really bad that I appear to have turned Russell's post into a critique of feminist discourse.)

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    I also feel really bad that I appear to have turned Russell's post into a critique of feminist discourse

    Guilty feet ain't got no rhythm.... :-)

    [sorry, Bart!]

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3895 posts Report Reply

  • Lilith __, in reply to Craig Ranapia,

    Borgism: “Good” members of Collective Noun X. must adopt position Y. on subject Z. or get smote with the waggling finger of bad consciousness.

    Borgism! Thank you Craig, that is wonderful. Your word will be assimilated.

    Dunedin • Since Jul 2010 • 3895 posts Report Reply

  • Isabel Hitchings, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    Yeah, but there's a way to ask, you know?

    Doesn't that just come under the general heading of "don't be a dick"?

    I suspect that one of the problems with many of the terms which get used in any form of specialised discourse (privilege being the currently relevant but far from only example) is that they are also normal vocabulary words with a slightly different meaning so people encountering that usage for the first time may not even realise there is anything to learn. And, yeah, there are ways for people on both sides of the divide to handle it without dickishness.

    Christchurch • Since Jul 2007 • 719 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to giovanni tiso,

    Very confusing to read the terms when they mean something very different.

    Actually, the root is exactly the same. I see no reason to be confused.

    Absolutely. I understand that, but man when I first saw the term used I did a double take. I could work backwards to figure it out and it made sense. But it still doesn't stop it looking strange to my eyes.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Isabel Hitchings,

    Doesn't that just come under the general heading of "don't be a dick"?

    Yeah, but it's surprising how often people see their keyboards as an excuse to abdicate that particular responsibility.

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • James Butler, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    But in my world cis and trans usually refer to regulation of gene expression.

    Not meaning to boast, but I remembered enough 6th-form chemistry that the first time I saw the term "cis" in this kind of context I k̶n̶e̶w̶ correctly guessed what it meant; and I've found it a very useful tool for reflection on my own (astronomical) privilege. Names are powerful things; having a name for something forces you to think of it as a thing, which is as important for things you hadn't thought of because they're the unquestioned norm as it is for things you hadn't thought of because you haven't encountered them.

    Also, privilege itself: once you've noticed it and thought about it, it has a habit of inconveniently popping up and informing your thought in places you didn't want or expect it to. Which is a good thing.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2009 • 856 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Isabel Hitchings,

    I always google unfamiliar terms

    Every post of Emma's makes me learn another 5 terms, some of which I have to try very hard to unlearn ("I can't be knowin' that!"). Of course you get really caught out when you know the exact meaning of a word like cis* and then get all confusticated.

    * oh and just to note in biology cis and trans are always italicised to indicate their latin origin - 'cos I know you wanted me to pass on my knowledge and wisdom**

    **WTB sarcasm tag

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Emma Hart,

    You have to give people room to take Megan's second option. (Yes, yes, I just giggled smuttily.)

    Oh, puh- lease!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown, in reply to Megan Wegan,

    But yeah, God knows we all make mistakes. I'm not perfect, nor is anyone I know. (I also feel really bad that I appear to have turned Russell's post into a critique of feminist discourse.)

    Not at all. It was my cunning plan all along ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 22850 posts Report Reply

  • Megan Wegan, in reply to Russell Brown,

    You have to give people room to take Megan's second option. (Yes, yes, I just giggled smuttily.)

    Oh, puh- lease!

    Dude! I left it alone, couldn't you?

    Welly • Since Jul 2008 • 1275 posts Report Reply

  • Leopold,

    12 pages and no-one's godwinned yet - are you all going for the record?

    Since Jan 2007 • 153 posts Report Reply

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