I was also wondering how the people pontificating around this issue felt about the child violence debate, which seemed to be?

and quite willing to conflate the Edgeware Road vehicle homicide and last weekend's drag racing accident

. . . impressive word mofo.

con·flate (k?n-fl?t')
tr.v. con·flat·ed, con·flat·ing, con·flates

1. To bring together; meld or fuse: __"The problems [with the biopic] include . . . dates moved around, lovers deleted, many?

Did anyone else think it was hilarious to see Clayton Cosgrove side-by-side with the 'yoof' from Tauranga last night?

I can't take Cosgrove seriously at all.

I mean, the man is the spitting image of Sam the Eagle from The Muppets, and you're always expecting him to tangent off into?

I have some sympathy for Celia Lashlie's "parents need to learn to say no" position – if parents required from their teenagers a bit more information, and set some clear guidelines ...

Yeah, and I do think there are parents – including wealthy, middle-class people in Auckland's inner 'burbs -?

I love those quotes:

"this is a society not braying for?

National's (and the right in general) response to the budget has been confused and muted and they were very slow in developing any sort of coherent criticism.

That's because if your political position is grounded in the Protestant work ethic (something I have about as much time for as I?

Oh, and how long is the media going to persist with allowing John Key to continually contradict himself depending on the question? Its driving me nuts

About as long as the media's going to keep running editorial puff pieces on KiwiSaver that any other financial institution would have to have?

Go and look at www.guardian.co.uk or www.nytimes.com.

How many road accident stories do you see – almost none? (For today the Guardian has none and the New?

But the fact that people are better off with Kiwi Saver alone is a powerful point for the government.

I never thought I'd say this, but I thought Lila Harre actually made an interesting point on Nine to Noon's politics segment yesterday. (And so did Matthew Hooten, just to add?

As far as I can tell there are as many boy racers in Australia – however due to the tarriffs they drive Holdens and Fords instead of Japanese?

this is a society not braying for blood

Not that it matters I suppose, haven't looked it up, but isn't it baying for blood? (Or the full moon, whichever is more convenient at the time).

I have some sympathy for Celia Lashlie's "parents need to learn to say no" position – if parents required from their teenagers a bit more information, and set some clear guidelines

Yes, that's fair enough when we're talking about the 16 year-olds killed at the Ccch party. But how many?

Not that it matters I suppose, haven't looked it up, but isn't it baying for blood? (Or the full moon, whichever is more convenient at the time).

Of course it is. But if the mayor says braying, then braying it is.

I should note that Garry Moore is a longtime?

the nationalisation o[f] any risk

The Government isn't assuming the risk. If you choose the wrong Kiwisaver vehicle and it breaks, you lose.

No Right Turn comes up with the graph that the government should have

I'm not so sure the Government wants to be trumpetting the fact they're transferring?

Of course it is. But if the mayor says braying, then braying it is

Of course, it's all in the context – mayors bray, ferocious predators bay.

I think?

I actually think McCarten has a point — geez, I am going to get drummed out the VRWC for that! :) Whether you think that's necessarily a bad thing – or even if TINA (there is no alternative) comes into play here – is quite another. At the moment,?

Anyone got any comments on Matt McCarten's reaction to KiwiSaver?

I think what some people really object object to the use of private companies to essentially receive government funds.

For myself, whilst I may invest in them, I regard most pension / retirement funds, whether state delivered or private, as?

Everyone's going on and on (including alot of people in this blog – and now me...) about how to solve the boy racers problem, youth drinking culture, etc etc ad nauseum but from my memory as a troubled youth I didn't?

Can't find it on radionz audio but I swear I heard Harry Duynhoven on Morning Report calling young people stupid – in the most general way. Not boy racers, not drunk teens; young people.
Way to go, Harry. Youth vote, anyone?

Harry's desperate to make sure that the logical progression?

Basically, everything is a risk, eggs in one basket – don't place.

Well yes, but we have all our eggs in the property market at the moment.

Here's what you do: You don't give kids drivers licences until they're at least 19. Their brains are not fully grown, cars are simply too dangerous for them. sorry this is the annoying euro perspective but WHERE I COME FROM (the?

You don't recall when NY City went bankrupt and everyone's retirement funds evaporated?

On your second point, I find the argument that everyone's Kiwisaver savings will be at particular risk somewhat?

I should note that Garry Moore is a longtime Hard News reader and may well see this ...

Oh good. Then he'd be able to explain some of the more interesting and ineffectual schemes trialled by his Council to deal with young drivers.

My personal favourite was the 50 thousand?

Turned out if there'd been an accident on it the Council/event organiser would have been liable for prosecution.

Which is probably one reason Bob Clarkson doesn't throw open the gates to his speedway.

Have we seen, in effect, the privatisation of superannuation – and the nationalisation od any risk, which should be a real concern given the rather *cough* uneven history of returns on such schemes – through massive transfers of public money to the affluent?

Not yet – but it makes it?

You don't recall when NY City went bankrupt and everyone's retirement funds evaporated?

Or thousands of former employees of Enron and Robert Maxwell who found out their pension funds had vanished before their jiobs?

In Holland the road toll is the same in absolute terms as New Zealand, but it's the size of Canterbury and we have 16 million people.

Which is kind of the important difference.

So when you've banned everyone under 19 from owning a car, will you be transporting them to?

Well yes, but we have all our eggs in the property market at the moment.

My point was encourage diversification of investment and as I said in another thread, statistically it makes sense to make some provision for retirement in these or similar schemes. Just don't make it your only?

I'm not so sure the Government wants to be trumpetting the fact they're transferring wealth to the rich from the poor who may be unable to sign up.

No; they're transferring wealth from employers to their workers. Most of the benefits remember come from employer contributions, not from the government.?

What's your message to kids in rural Taranaki who'd like to go to a movie or enjoy a social life?

"People shouldn't live in Taranaki".

But then, I'd say that to adults too.

If kids get succesfully stopped from hooning around in their own cars, what's going to happen? Chances are they might start stealing cars and racing those – cheaper than building one and risking getting it confiscated.

Joy riding and hooning in your own car a two different levels of lawbreaking.?

Whilst I agree that Holland is one switched on place (went there a couple of years back), I really can't see any of their solutions apart from trains working here. I cycled?

Do what I did. Ride a bike all over Auckland and ride the buses.

I realise there are a number of Hard news readers who seem to have difficulty grasping this fact but: not every lives, or wishes to live, in Auckland. Horror!

"People shouldn't live in Taranaki".

But then,?

It seems to me there are strategies from the drink driving campaign to apply to antisocial driving. By antisocial driving I mean people that treat the roads as their own personal drag strips, rally courses or cross country challenges.

Firstly it needs to?

Unfortunately some people die, but we are working on that.

We could be doing a lot better, though. Compare us to the US, which generally has lower per-capita fatality rats in most states, and yet has many of the problems we do (sprawl, poor public transport).

Secondly, turning to younger people, the behaviour modelling of parents is important. If they treat the roads as if they own them then a) its antisocial and b) don?t their kids get the idea that this is OK behaviour?

Certainly when Dad owns a V8 Commodore and complains that enforcement?

Steady on...

Sorry to drag you into that RB, my point wasn't to slag you (or upset you) .... I was merely bemused/annoyed that Rogerd seemed to think I had commited some sort of PA herecy by i] failing to read your post, and ii] failing to accept/understand what you'd?

Sorry to drag you into that RB, my point wasn't to slag you (or upset you).

I am not easily upset in such situations ;-)

Notwithstanding the efforts you make to check your facts before asserting them).

I try and find them out first, and then assert them. Takes longer?

What Haydn said. I've been really stunned at the total absence of actual young people from any of the media coverage of these Big Wig Pow Wows in the last week.

Have you ever seen boy racers interviewed on TV? They really don't tend to come across well. I remember?

I seem to remember in the Old Days that Helen Clark didn't come across well either. TV reporting can definitely pick the worst in people, if they want to.

The problem is that?

I agree that 16 is too young for people to be in sole charge of a vehicle. It's something I've always been uncomfortable about – even when I was a teenager (was why I didn't go for my license until I was in my 20's -?

The Government isn't assuming the risk. If you choose the wrong Kiwisaver vehicle and it breaks, you lose.

I keep asking this and keep not getting an answer: how is this different from right now?

Right now, if my investment tanks, and the Cullen fund tanks, I can rely on?

That he wants to is partly my fault, since he got wood every time he got into any of my sportscars.

My first thought was "Eww – I hope he's not that kind of uncle" but I know what you're saying Ben! :)
When I took my 8y.o. nephew for a?

Kia kaha to any who have lost loved ones.

Is it in their DNA?

Y?

I remember the ones they had on Holmes, they made Banks look intelligent.?

if my investment tanks, and the Cullen fund tanks...And if the property market tanks...If my elected kiwisaver fund folds

Also answers to the name of 'lucky'".

Seriously though, I think you have painted an act of God scenario.

Long term, the chances of two out of three of your investments?

Is it in their DNA?

Y?

that's a chromosone dude.

Hell Mikey Havoc is still a youth in local body politics

Hell, Mikey Havoc is still a youth in Mikey Havoc's mind too!!

It doesn't. It dissuades owning an overpowered vehicle because the premiums are really high, especially for kids. Dangerous driving is possibly slightly encouraged by insurance, until you have an accident and the premiums jack up?

you know the crappy lowered Honda Civics with big exhausts

yep, I know

there once was a girlie from auckland
whose compatriots thought it was dorkland
she went overseas, to escape this disease ...

... and found that all the bloody kiwis in london still had the same?

Yes ricers have a different style. I had to spend 2 hours removing all the ridiculous and non-applicable stickers off my first MR2. It?

Have you ever seen boy racers interviewed on TV? They really don't tend to come across well.... ....They appeared so stupid as to make me fear for our future as a nation...

Maybe so. But maybe the problem is that it was on TV – Are the kids interviewed on?

NZ driver laws are predicated on the idea that a 15 year old farm hand need a liscence to be able to drive a tractor down a rural road. That's why our driving age is so low, and over the years no politician has been game to change that

Yep,?

...but met the same obsession with torque-bands.

I fully 'get' that what's happening now isn't much?

To me, freedom is to being allowed.

To me, freedom is to being allowed.

I'm not quite sure how to parse that. If you mean that freedom is defined as being allowed to do whatever you want, then isn't an environment that forces you to spend thousands of dollars on owning, running, storing and learning to drive?

Good luck with transforming NZ into that. See you in 50 years.

Holland is cool, but it's flat, small and well populated, and has been?

To me, freedom is to being allowed.

Yes but freedom is also abused by knuckleheads

Andrew llewellyn, hey it's no worse than the Holden painted as an Australian flag I saw cruising weakly past me last time I was in Sydney.

hey Ben, I'm not passing judgement – I LOVE that site. Just demonstrating to Hadyn that I know what he means..

BTW – most?

I get what you're saying, which is pretty?

Good comments Rebecca. I think you're articulating why things are a little different now from when we were kids. Sure, there was booze and a bit of dope but that was it. And there weren't 200+ people gathered at each 'event'.

I think what Rebecca did was knowledgeably articulate a?

I have waited most of my life for the chance to quote an eagle's song on the interewebby thing. In NZ Music month. My work here is done.

I luuurrrve the public transport options available in Wellington and wish there were more. The same goes for Auckland (except for the "luuurrrve" part). And Mayors can have an?

I also love driving. I hate commuting and won't do it. But since this thread is about boy racing, I feel obliged to point out the the extremely obvious fact that cars are choice.

Don't really get it. Jolly handy, fer sure. But as a main event in life, whatever?

I have waited most of my life for the chance to quote an eagle's song on the interewebby thing

With regard to the Eagles I stand with Jeff Lebowski I'm afraid.

Not for everyone, sure. I dare not mention your age, but I'm kind of thinking a Ford Anglia would have been a bitchin ride when you were impressionable, and mate, that's just not?

I hope you're not bitter on my Euro car rag.

Not at all! Most of my life I've never even owned a car. First one I bought was a Fiat 500 because I had designs on the vendor's sister (lucked out, and the car was rarely roadworthy). The next car?

it makes ... thousands of loved-up kids at dance parties ... look remarkably benign

heh heh – I wonder if/when the politicians would be prepared to legalise E in return for P being gone forever??

Speaking of loved up kids – I must pick mine up from school now

But with that said, in NZ it does seem to be something that you need, at least in most areas of the?

No; freedom is to be able and to be allowed.

[/ranting about pet peeve].

I've owned exactly one Euro car and one American one. Both were total lemons. Since then it's been jap after jap. I can't decide which was ultimately more fun?

Ford Anglia would have been a bitchin ride when you were impressionable

Well, speed isn't everything. My first car was a very old war torn Escort Mk1 whose suspension worked intermittently. When I hit 50mph on the M4 life got very interesting.

But we are so far from being Europe it's not funny. Both physically, demographically, culturally and in terms of development.

But we don't have to be (apart from physically, of course). Parts of NZ already have half-decent density and half-decent public transport infrastructure, and [[http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/05/distant-hills.html|where that is the case, people?

And sorry man, you are being a snob. Bad enough to be stuck in Taranaki, but to have some dorklander ban your wheelz? The bitterness.

Terence, freedom from and freedom to? Takes me back to my varsity?

A Mustang is probably the coolest yank car ever. You might be a bit shocked how weak it seems now, though.

I bet – and I'd be torn between wanting an old one or a new one. But I'm not really a car person (or anything with a motor actually).?

It's just silly to say that it is the end of national super. Possibly, it might make it easier for some future political party to eliminate or abolish super at some distant future point but I doubt it. If they tried withing the next 40 years retirees (who?

a great big trench being driven through one of the oldest and formerly most interesting neighbourhoods of the city

Tom, it's not cars that drive great big trenches through interesting parts of cities...

It's urban planners & local politicians!

Yip.

As Janis Joplin sang: "Freedom's just another word if it isn't freedom too".

[ends lunch break having made the worst contribution to the thread]

Not for everyone, sure. I dare not mention your age, but I'm kind of thinking a Ford Anglia would have been a bitchin ride when you were impressionable, and mate, that's just not the same as what kids get these days. It's like comparing a ZX81 to a Playstation.

Ahem.?

Just wondering – I've found it a lot quicker taking the longer but more scenic route around?

blaming these kids for the things they get up to, because what they're doing is what the grownups do. drink, drug, fuck, fight, and drive like a fucking arsehole.

I'm ashamed to say that I read this and my first reaction was to get a little depressed about my lack?

It handled alright so long as you had a bootload of firewood in the back.

I'm 34 and I still don't have my licence. I turned out fine, never hurt me any!

Get on it Heather, someone has to start the Grrrl Racer problem!

But now, Chargers are just for nostalgic driftarz and American dreamarz (in the style of Need 4 Speed?

I should point out that my first car was a Morris 1800

That's a big engine for a little car isn't it? One thing that struck me when I got the Mazda, was how much engine cars have these days, I mean, if I opened up the bonnet of the?

However I've learnt a lot from this?

Finn, perhaps it's on par with liking NZ music? Heh, I kill me.

I'm not sure if that was a diss on NZ music or on me for dissing general standards of NZ musicianship! Be more specific in your insults, man!

(Assuming the latter, I'll say one thing: NZ does?

"That reads a little bit like "if you don't like the way things are, you can get the hell out of here", but I'll try not to read it like that."

Heh...soz. Yes it does. But there is a germ of wisdom in the saying. Sounds to me like?

has The Bypass settled down yet? Is it yet possible to cross town in anything near approaching the time it took before the bypass was built?

It seems to be back to pre-bypass levels, at least from casual observation from the sidelines. I'm not sure that there's been any actual?

The way I see it, learning not to kill yourself is a part of growing up and you can do it so many more ways than driving a fast car that it's pointless to try to filter out that side of it.

And the harsh comment that would?

has The Bypass settled down yet? Is it yet possible to cross town in anything near approaching the time it took before the bypass was built?

It seems to be back to pre-bypass levels, at least from casual observation from the sidelines.

Nope. Not down our way (Tasman St).

We've?

(Don't stop though Russ. Each to their own. To me the roar?

Holland is cool, but it's flat, small and well populated, and has been urbanized for several hundred years. Their suburbs aren't like ours, because they don't have the space for it, and cars weren't even invented when their town planning had pretty much set?

I'm also surprised you lived. All that biking is waaay more dangerous than doing it in a car. Wobbling around exhausted in the wet at night with no traction, weak?

because what they're doing is what the grownups do. drink, drug, fuck, fight, and drive like a fucking arsehole.
I'm ashamed to say that I read this and my first reaction was to get a little depressed about my lack of social life.

Ah, but here online you can be?

How could you forget the Ford GTO?!?

But I'm much more of a hotrod kind of guy.

Sure you can improve any city.?

I like my car. It is an extension of my household, a comfortable familiar place?

(Don't stop though Russ. Each to their own. To me the roar and PSCHH of a passing ricer is music. Bad music, sometimes. But sometimes it's pure art.)

I can't argue with that, but only because I've been known to listen to stuff that most people would consider a lot?

What's your message to kids in rural Taranaki who'd like to go to a movie or enjoy a social life? "Get fucked"?

Hey, pretty much. Must be that damn convent upbringing again, but am I the only person who finds 99% of the teenage boys of my acquaintance bewildering, often?

To whoever said 'driving is not a right', it is. Like sex, duck shooting and loud music. In a society ruled by law, everything that isn't?

Hence:

"People forget what a life-transforming event getting your own car is when you are 15 or 16, but I don't. I had the first car in my social group, and it was fantastic. We were free?

People forget what a life-transforming event getting your own car is when you are 15 or 16, but I don't.

Maybe it would have been, but I didn't bother at that age (and I lived in a part of Christchurch without much public transport – it was just a given?

Somebody else's problem until then? I had plenty of?

BTW, road death rates in NZ are not way out of line with other countries. We're about the same per km as Germany or the USA. Given that we have pretty dodgy roads, I'd suggest that means that NZ driving behaviour isn't all that bad really.

Actually it's not much?

My first car was a 1974 Austin Mini – british house green (ie I think it had been painted with green house paint from Britan).

Great little car, more like?

(Which begs the question – why don't more of them leave?)

If memory serves, some commenter on Kiwiblog said earlier that in fact, 1 in 4 Kiwis do leave.

So it must be true!

Your right/privilege point is lost on me. All rights are also privileges. All rights can also?

Being able to get around isn't really a panacea. It's kind of basic.

Right, but that's something you factor into a decision to move to a particular place. As in, I don't live in Wanaka. Not because I have any dislike of the place or because I think Wellington is?

Simon, heh, that puts it in perspective. A place where people ride motorbikes without helmets all the time, and famous for lawless driving, has similar death rates. My experience of driving in Thailand was similar. Bangkok seemed crazy till?

its a plain fact humans LOVE cars?

Were you trying to be funny?

Coz that is just a dumb statement. As Tom points out "Humans" don't love anything. I doubt you can pick one thing (not vital to survival like breathing) that all humans love.

I like cars?

Somebody else's problem until then? I had plenty of mates who expected Mr Taxi Man to keep them in their unlicensed bliss, but eventually they wised up

A friend of the family maintained (in the 1960s) that it was far cheaper to take taxis everywhere (everywhere), than to own a?

I don't think teenagers needs are irrelevant at all. They are exactly as relevant as yours, probably more so because they have to live here longer.

Of course there's the question of maturity. But personally I?

Not because of other passengers (hardly ever had a problem with them in Auckland?

Somebody else's problem until then? I had plenty of mates who expected Mr Taxi Man to keep them in their unlicensed bliss, but eventually they wised up.

Amazing assumption you make: the whole point of it was that I didn't need a car to live most of my life, so?

Finn, it was actually a diss on Russell.

Right. That's it – I'm leaving. Oh. Hang on ...

I doubt you can pick one thing (not vital to survival like breathing) that all humans love.

How about ... love?

Sustainability and convenience are?

Someone mentioned guns earlier.
Why doesn't the gun licence extend to competence?
An annual shooting test to ensure the duckies are dispatched in one?

Heather, I bet the people who have to drive you around don't see it that way.

Very bad assumption. When I lived in towns & smaller cities I biked. In Wellington/London/Auckland I've taken public transport and walked. Nights on the town I take a taxi, as will most of my driver?

See? There you again Tom Beard – "the more chance we'll have of building sustainable cities." You are (now its my turn to use the phrase du jour) conflating sustainability with what sort of transport options work best for a small city, and what people want.

I've never conflated sustainability?

If we did it might actually start to appear.

There are some areas that get pretty bad congestion in the mornings and?

Drunk as guy crashes into the ditch in front of my parents place, can't stand up, trying to get back on his bike to hoon off. I?

Finn, your argument can be extended to say that noone should live in NZ.

I don't think teenagers needs are irrelevant at all. They are exactly as relevant as yours, probably more so because they have to live here longer.

I don't think any of that stands unless you put?

Also, at Bali speeds I suspect more accidents?

I like cars for their form and grace when assembled by mastercrafts people in much the same way I like art, architecture and good food. but i don't care what gets me from A to B (with all due environmental concerns, selah)

Yeah, I like Top Gear a lot, and?

Which is?

Not that I want to drive shit cars. Just that a 1999 Mazda Capella seems quite adequate.

I've always seen cars the same kind of way. As long as it's reliable I really don't give a stuff. A kid that can put their bike chain back on knows about as?

I doubt you can pick one thing (not vital to survival like breathing) that all humans love.

How about ... love?

Curse you Brown and your keen insight!

Yeah, I like Top Gear a lot

The weird thing is, I don't. I find Jeremy wassisname to be the most annoying?

I mention these grim details, because as from tomorrow, I'm?

It has the device where you push a button and sound is emitted where people are talking, sometimes I put a plastic token into it and I can listen to cooler sounds.

You're on drugs aren't you?

You're on drugs aren't you?

For gods sakes, I'm a secondary school teacher. How the hell else do you expect me to get through the day! Actually today I am home suffering from dizzy spells. Is it possible to get lost in cyberspace and never find your way out? Where?

The need to establish eye contact?

Bugger it, that link didn't work

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-streets-campuses-and-pedestrian.html

Finn, you were on a partially comical point that people with kids shouldn't live in Taranaki because it limits their options and makes it hard for us city folks to legislate against kids driving. I'm saying the argument scales. People shouldn't live in Auckland for the same reason.

Which is?

At the moment we set legal limits on a bunch of activities at a range of ages, with driving arguably one of the lowest. Yet it's also probably the most dangerous of the lot. What's the rationale?

What about this line of reasoning:

Given that the majority of roads in?