Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Right This Time?

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  • Tom Semmens,

    I'm now the sixth generation on my father's side to call NZ home,

    I find this interesting. For some reason, elite opinion in this country is in denial of the existance or legitimacy of popular Pakeha nationalism and uncomfortable even with the idea of a distinct Kiwi identity. It is as if they think being proud of your country is immediately followed by an invasion of Poland.

    But I am of the view that something is happening in this country, I think a major generational cleving is occuring between the baby boomers/Gen X on one the one hand and those who have been born and grown up with the consequences of the sequeance of events that began with British entry into the EEC, and includes the Maori renaissance and Rogernomics.

    These fifth, sixth and seventh generation Pakeha New Zealanders have been exposed to Maori culture, are not afraid of it and no longer view Maori through their parents lens of settler white guilt. They are much less inclined to be little Englanders and if they look anywhere they look to Australia for ideas, a country which has an agressively nationalistic agenda. They've absorbed aspects of Maori culture and used it bolster a distinct Pakeha nationalist identity. They are impatient with and insulted by the idea they somehow have a lesser connection with these islands than the likes of the Harawira clan.

    They are the coming generation.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1741 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    Let's not forget the land stealing and paternalism too.

    Thank you Sacha.

    NZ has an indigenous people, who (largely) signed a treaty with the Crown which allowed New Zealand to become what it is today. The attempts of people to move on from that basic fact now that chickens have come home to roost is really shameful.

    Thank you Kyle.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    Thank you Kyle.

    When did you arrive here again? Are you sure you are qualified to take part in a discussion between real New Zealanders?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1741 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    Refresh my memory: the dissolution of the Alliance was because of internal strife on whether or not to support a Government policy?

    Both -- and it only had any impact on the ability of the Government to function when Clark was fishing around for a pretext to call a snap election.

    FFS, I know there's a lot of people out there who are never going to reach the Fifth Stage of grieving where FPP is concerned, but we're living in an MMP environment, the world has not ended, and it is just time to Get. Over. It.

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11783 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Semmens,

    I have to go now and engage with the real world.

    I'm sorry that I picked on you Giovanni, I set you up to make a point.


    Now you know how a lot of six generation white New Zealanders feel when they get told they are not "Tangata Whenua".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1741 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    a distinct Pakeha nationalist identity

    Tom, I reckon Michael King and others have had interesting things to say about being Pakeha. It's not the same as Maori, though.

    I believe nationalism is dying out in favour of communities of interest and affinity that are both more local and more global.

    Young people similarly take ideas from wherever they can. There are sizeable communities here who don't have white skin and who look to non-anglo cultural sources for inspiration. Certainly not to those filthy aussies.

    I have to go now and engage with the unreal world.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16272 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie,

    I'm sorry that I picked on you Giovanni, I set you up to make a point.

    Sure you did - the point being that for you, to "look to Australia for ideas" from its "agressively nationalistic agenda" means aping Pauline Hanson, right down to the faux-prophetic nationalist cod-mysticism. Immigration built, and continues to build, this country, despite the best efforts of the little Canutes. Khrist you can be vile when the spirit moves you.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 3325 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    "agressively nationalistic agenda"

    So Winston is our local hero?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16272 posts Report Reply

  • Kerry Weston,

    What impresses me about the Hone/Maori Party debate is the open, flax roots, vigorous discussion happening in Hone's electorate. Would any other party or MP experience that extraordinary level of engagement with his community, working through their issues and feelings about their representative?

    Manawatu • Since Jan 2008 • 494 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    After the September 11 attacks on the United States, planned and orchestrated from within the failed Afghan state, an invasion of that place to root out Osama Bin Laden's global reach and kill his followers was legal, just and right. As such it was supported by the vast majority of New Zealanders. Most people wished to express their support for our United States ally in it's actions against the criminals who planned the 9/11 attacks.

    Really?
    Yeah, Right!

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 4555 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    Kyle, the definition of "indigenous peoples" certainly precludes me from being one, but that doesn't mean I cannot be indigenous - after all, I originated from where I am found.
    When a vocal segment of an indigenous people is calling for repatriation of all other peoples, it actually matters a whole lot as to what my origin is. Oh, sure, I know it's never going to happen, but that doesn't mean I don't care. I have useful ties to other countries only where I have relatives who are either NZ-born immigrants or their offspring. I have no ancestral ties to another country, except in the strictest academic sense. This is my home, and I know no other. It's actually a really fucking shitty feeling to know that there are people who consider that I cannot belong to the land in which I, and my parents, and my parents' parents were born.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3889 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole,

    FFS, I know there's a lot of people out there who are never going to reach the Fifth Stage of grieving where FPP is concerned, but we're living in an MMP environment, the world has not ended, and it is just time to Get. Over. It.

    Given that I wasn't old enough to vote until the second MMP election, I have no fond memories of FPP. I certainly ain't grieving for its demise.

    My point was this: It took Helen years before there was a public falling-out with support parties over points of pre-notified policy or member behaviour. The Alliance issue came from response to an emergent situation, not to something agreed on as the result of calm debate. The Nat/Greens MOU was only signed in May! So in six months National has managed to alienate a partner in government on a policy matter that was formulated from debate and consideration.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3889 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    a vocal segment of an indigenous people is calling for repatriation of all other peoples

    They're a really tiny vocal segment, and most people think they're wackaloons. Then people with shoulder-chips end up taking this extremism as an excuse to whine endlessly about Pakeha identity and ignore perfectly legitimate Maori grievances. It's the New Zealand race relations version of 'what about teh menz?' and it's fucking stupid and embarrassing. Kyle is totally right.

    (And I speak as someone who believes that there is a legitimate Pakeha culture, and it could be awesome. We [they - argh, have no words for myself] just need to stop banging on about how UNFAIR it is not to be INDIGENOUS all the goddamn time.)

    Tom, I'd like to agree with Joe that that was a shitty thing to say to Giovanni, even in the service of making your dubious We Are The Pakeha Champions point. C'mon, dude.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3623 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    there is a legitimate Pakeha culture, and it could be awesome

    Totally. Strengthened by our partnership with Maori and the broader diversity of all who have settled here since. Fear or loathing are not helpful.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 16272 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    I quite like the NZ born settlers identification as Natives.

    A little short of 1000yrs and still my family aren't considered Irish by some.

    Here's a celebration of Xenophobia from WWI
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Militaria/Badges/auction-252639557.htm

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1144 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso,

    I'm sorry that I picked on you Giovanni, I set you up to make a point.

    On the contrary, I like it when people make my arguments for me - saves me a lot of time, and it has been quite a busy week chez this recent immigrant's.

    If you bothered to ask me, I'd tell you that I am quite conscious of how my claims of being a person of this place are more tenuous than those of a Maori or a Pakeha. I have a great deal of respect for both of these cultures, am aware of how difficult and improper it is in some respects to establish boundaries between them. I also feel sympathetic to Michael King's arguments concerning the indigeneity of Pakehas. But King certainly never intended to elide all differences and erase history, how we came to be here, the fundamental negotiation that marked the birth of New Zealand as a modern nation.

    One thousand years from now, the whakapapas of the people who live here - including my descendants, if there'll still be any - will be so intermingled that the already dubious bloodline case will be almost impossible to make, but even then the tangata whenua, understood as a unit of kinship, culture and history, will have a primacy in this land that no other group could aspire to.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7320 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Caleb could you link to Andertons pro-war speech?

    Everytime I've heard him he goes on about a CD force.

    After 9/11 (12September here) the Chalice in the Square had just been opened. Its has an asymmetrical position in the square, but this relects the little whirl wind it depicts. It also looks like a bouquet and so people felt compleled to leave flowers there as an expression of grief.
    It has organically become a place of secular remeberance, which is a really cool development.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1144 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed,

    Absolutely. I remember listening to Key's two-handed-head-clutcher of a victory speech last year and thinking the same thing. "Nuh Zillun's got food and it's got scenery!" Great. Nice one, John. You do realize that, in the long term, those two things are largely incompatible? The more dairying there is, the more forest gets cleared, the more effluent and run-off there is in the waterways, and the uglier things get. Eventually, it's going to be so obvious even the tourists will notice.

    Mr Key is resuming free trade talks with the States. I wonder if he'd still be interested if it meant complying with the Waxman-Markey Act?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4059 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    When a vocal segment of an indigenous people is calling for repatriation of all other peoples, it actually matters a whole lot as to what my origin is. Oh, sure, I know it's never going to happen, but that doesn't mean I don't care.

    But the response to that claim shouldn't be "we're all tangata whenua" or similar lines. It should be "we're [non-Maori] all here by rights guaranteed under the treaty and subsequent laws". Absolutely nothing wrong with that claim, 1 generation or six. One silly response doesn't require another one.

    That then flows on naturally to "if I have rights which flow from the treaty, what happened to the rights of tangata whenua under that treaty?"

    It would also lead to a much better place in terms of modern immigration. "Xth generation NZer" is used by some people to basically be racist about recent immigrants. The treaty wasn't an agreement between Maori and white people, it was an agreement between Maori and the Crown, which now includes people of many different ethnicities.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6147 posts Report Reply

  • Caleb D'Anvers,

    Caleb, could you link to Anderton's pro-war speech?

    I was thinking of some especially craven TV spots he gave in the immediate wake of the 9/11 attacks. They're seared in my memory because of how jarring they seemed, but I have no idea if they're anywhere on the internet.

    East Greenwich • Since Mar 2008 • 414 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I find this interesting. For some reason, elite opinion in this country is in denial of the existance or legitimacy of popular Pakeha nationalism and uncomfortable even with the idea of a distinct Kiwi identity. It is as if they think being proud of your country is immediately followed by an invasion of Poland.

    Not so sure that's 'elite opinion'. Some people have that opinion, sure.

    These fifth, sixth and seventh generation Pakeha New Zealanders have been exposed to Maori culture, are not afraid of it and no longer view Maori through their parents lens of settler white guilt. They are much less inclined to be little Englanders and if they look anywhere they look to Australia for ideas, a country which has an agressively nationalistic agenda.

    I tend to agree that there is a fair bit of looking to Australia, but I'm not so sure that it's their indigenous race relations that we admire. It's more likely to be their higher level of 'development', at least in the cities. There are models in Australia of what NZ cities could move towards that are a lot more realistic than looking to Europe for inspiration.

    Also, the Australian attitude to life is sometimes seen as admirable. They have no shame, which makes for some quite interesting strengths (and weaknesses). To me it seems far more contextually appropriate than to look to England for attitudinal inspiration. Europeans generally seem to be bowed down by the weight of too much history a lot of the time. I tend to think that there's a line to be drawn between remembering history and wallowing in it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8305 posts Report Reply

  • Just thinking,

    Caleb, you are quite right.

    http://www.progressive.org.nz/latestnews/files/b9cc0e0a1f34f10b05671f78a8045bb6-59.html

    He has it on record that he conflated issues of Afghistan as a failed state and 9/11 as being a threat to the civilised world. No Afghanis were hijackers most were Saudis.

    Putaringamotu • Since Apr 2009 • 1144 posts Report Reply

  • dubmugga,

    i think in a not too distant future it will be possible to cherry pick the best things from various cultures and technologies. yep we'll take the wheel, the internet, the good medicine and throwaway the guns, the drugs and the capitalist ideology but i reckon it's going to take an evolutionary step forward in consciousness to do it.

    the other thing is, maybe in a couple more generations we'll be able to look back ,and this is my point that michael king didn't acknowledge, and see a distinct third wave of polynesian settlement when my mother and her siblings and many others came over in the 60's and onwards to take up scholarships and general unskilled or labour intensive positions, coinciding with the urbanisation and subsequent ghettoisation of maori. that third wave directly influenced the, up til then, bicultural relationship between pakeha and maori, recontextualising it within the wider polynesian context and consquently changing the cultural landscape forever. pakeha culture has co opted as much from third wave settlers as the second wave of most maori, with the origins of first wave original settlers, including the early polynesians, still shrouded in prehistoric mystery and legend.

    if you want to talk bicultural national identity without including "half caste" and NZ born poly's and just deal with the maori/pakeha thing then you're doing it at your ignorance and peril.

    maybe if we'd been open enough to acknowledge and deal with it sooner and not just institutionalise the cultural elitism of euro pakeha then the next big cultural influx that has been alluded to may not have taken such a strong hold on the current generation of all ethinicites, namely black american identity and politics in the form of hiphop. if the younguns are looking anywhere for guidance its more probably to america than ozzy.

    in parliament and thru the ages we've had our first women mp's/pm, first maori's, poly's,asians, gays, transexuals, rastas but have we had our first hiphop mp yet ?

    hone comes close with his attitude, colourful language and hand gestures but he's not the real thing, although i think maybe he's the first to access it. i just dont know if its a 'conscious' thing, seems more like 'gangsta':)

    the back of your mind • Since Nov 2006 • 257 posts Report Reply

  • Keir Leslie,

    Why is it always nth gen white New Zealanders? Why not nth gen Chinese New Zealander or whatever?

    Since Jul 2008 • 1263 posts Report Reply

  • DeepRed,

    Keir:

    Why is it always nth gen white New Zealanders? Why not nth gen Chinese New Zealander or whatever?

    Like the author of this post as it's being typed.

    Dub:

    i think in a not too distant future it will be possible to cherry pick the best things from various cultures and technologies. yep we'll take the wheel, the internet, the good medicine and throwaway the guns, the drugs and the capitalist ideology but i reckon it's going to take an evolutionary step forward in consciousness to do it.

    If NZ absolutely had to look to a bigger nation for ideas, Canada is probably the best of a bad lot, as least as far as Jon Stewart is concerned. I personally think Vancouver's closer to us than Sydney.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 4059 posts Report Reply

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