Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Science: it's complicated

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  • Kracklite, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I seem to remember a Blimpish figure from the late Cold War being referred to as General Sir John Hackett, so that might be appropriate… Hmmm.

    It may be that an actual peerage (as opposed to a knighthood) renders all other titles redundant in ceremonial use (as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms are dropped), so he’s Lord Winston ( followed by Wibbleonian Professor of Performing Stunt Moustachery, Licensed Electrician etc) in any matter of state, Professor Winston when in an academic context, or Lord Winston again according to the Rule of Cool.

    Just guessing.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report

  • Kracklite,

    ... annnnd, according to Wikipedia:

    The Rt Hon Prof The Lord Winston FMedSci FRSA FRCP FRCOG FIBiol FREng(Hon)

    Or:

    Robert Maurice Lipson Winston, Baron Winston

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 982 posts Report

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Kracklite,

    Prof The Lord

    Great name for a hip hop artist.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report

  • BenWilson, in reply to Sacha,

    (thanks, sir)

    My pleasure, enjoyed the chat immensely.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to andin,

    Andin, ethics, including for research involving other humans, is about our moral and cultural traditions. For pakeha in NZ this mainly means the Judeo Christian tradition and the philosophical tradition about what it is to be human going back to the ancient Greeks, like Socrates, Aristotle and Hippocrates. But basically what it comes down to is to behave to other people as you would like to be treated, act ethically and do not harm others. Our current framework can be traced to the Nuremberg Code, the Declaration of Helsinki etc.

    As ethical researchers in NZ we should also respect the cultural traditions of our Treaty partners. Te Ara Tika means the ethical way (as in tikanga) and it is of course not about the literal interpretation of the creation stories but the values they express. In practical terms it means addressing health/ethnic disparities in your research, engagement with your participants and an acknowledgement of the expertise they give to you the researcher, and aspects like more respect and care for human tissue than other countries might require.

    Probably haven't described this very well, but I think Te Ara Tika provides a very good guide for ethical research for NZ health and scientific research.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report

  • Islander, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    and the philosophical tradition about what it is to be human going back to the ancient Greeks, like Socrates, Aristotle and Hippocrates

    and Epicurius especially, as far as I am concerned

    andin - there are different sets of creation stories. They indicate relationships
    and duties: they are not to be taken literally, and they have evolved over generations.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report

  • Stephen Judd,

    I've always enjoyed the German approach where people with multiple PhD's are allowed to pile them up along with their other honorifics. Thus I once attended a talk given by a Herr Professor Doktor Doktor X.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Stephen Judd,

    Thus I once attended a talk given by a Herr Professor Doktor Doktor X

    You really must stop frequenting supervillains.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7473 posts Report

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    ethical researchers in NZ

    So I have a problem with this. Yes I agree ethics play a very important role in science. More important than has been perceived in the past. There are many ethical considerations that simply demand the experiment be changed or simply not continue and rightly so.

    But a number of times I've been challenged on the ethical nature of my research because it did not consider some belief that was demonstrably false. At that point I'm faced with the dilemma of consideration for what someone else believes (but is false) and the desire to progress the science. There is no winning compromise in such a situation much as I might like there to be.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report

  • bmk, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    And if it's anything to go by, a very close friend of mine, despite graduating with a PhD in organic chemistry from the University of Auckland, couldn't secure a single job here. Not even in Australia or Europe either. So he's basically gone freelance and promoted himself, writing scientific documents. While he's not earning to his full potential, it's a start for him

    He must have been tempted to turn to manufacturing drugs. I have heard qualified organic chemists are highly sought after by certain criminal organisations.

    Since Jun 2010 • 327 posts Report

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    some belief that was demonstrably false

    example?

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report

  • Hilary Stace, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    But even these situations can benefit from a bit of ethical reflection on treating others how you would like to be treated and relationship building.

    Wgtn • Since Jun 2008 • 3229 posts Report

  • Ian Dalziel,

    So translators of science need to be conversant with the scientific/Arabic realm and be able to parse this knowledge
    into ‘easy speak’.

    oh, I know, al jabr / al gebra....

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Sacha,

    some belief that was demonstrably false

    example?

    GMO crops cause allergies is a very simple one, others get more complicated because you start treading on belief systems but a simplification is “God says it’s bad”.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    Agreed Hilary. It is always worthwhile pausing and examining an ethical consideration. Especially if it is something you haven't considered.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report

  • andin, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    research involving other humans, is about our moral and cultural traditions. For pakeha in NZ this mainly means the Judeo Christian tradition and the philosophical tradition about what it is to be human going back to the ancient Greeks,

    If I may say, these are the exact same things that are often an impediment to large swathes of people not getting along. I respect that you as a researcher need an ethical framework in which to gain access to people in a way that doesnt exploit them. Though I would hazard to say, not that any one person or thing is specifically at fault there is a perverse effect. It reinforces those traditions and they come into play when it may be better not to stick too closely to the letter of some ancient writ.

    I hope I am sensitive to realise this land means more to other people than it does to me because of the long connection their family have with it, and the traditions that infuse meaning in the relationship for them may seem like life or death. I am the first of my fathers lineage to be born here and the second of my mothers. So the kinship I feel for this place is fragile. (I am more at home in the birthplace of my father.) But FWIW I am here and want to add my voice to the chorus about how we all live together.

    We need to find ways to come together. I don't know what to think of the indigenous of this country just having a renaissance of their culture but in a totally changed world. How will it all fare... is anyone's guess.

    And many thanks Islander I hope I get the relationships built, and to be maintained, between people and place form the basis of many myths. And where this has not been irrevocably broken, life seems to be fare better.

    But until a Maitreya turns up without the funny headgear and flowing robes thanks. I'll content myself in the delusion that eventually people will squabble their way to extinction. And even if we do stop killing each other, there's always screwing each other over monetarily. But damn, some will look while their doing it.
    Sorry I cant resist. Always the dark comedian.

    raglan • Since Mar 2007 • 1891 posts Report

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    GMO crops cause allergies

    What, someone has experimentally proved that's not true? I thought part of the resistance to GM crops was the lack of precautionary research before their release.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report

  • Jeremy Andrew, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    Al Gebra, Al Chemy, and my old friend Al Cohol.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report

  • nzlemming, in reply to Sacha,

    I thought part of the resistance to GM crops was the lack of precautionary research before their release

    Most of it seems to be about messing with DNA which is against the natural order (which I believe to be code for "God's Word")

    Rational discussion is not a huge factor in the GMO debate.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 2937 posts Report

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to nzlemming,

    Most of it seems to be about messing with DNA which is against the natural order (which I believe to be code for "God's Word")

    Rational discussion is not a huge factor in the GMO debate.

    Given that there are scientists on both sides of the debate, that sounds like the kind of unfounded folk belief that you find so risible among those horrid anti-GE god botherers.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report

  • Lucy Stewart, in reply to nzlemming,

    Rational discussion is not a huge factor in the GMO debate.

    There is a lot of incredibly irrational opposition to GMOs which boils down to "but it's not natural", to which my answer is generally "how do you feel about antibiotics and modern dentistry?". (Also, species swapping DNA = 100% completely natural.)

    But the way GMOs are currently released, the legislation around them, and the domination of the field by companies like Monsanto IS problematic, and there does need to be a more open and thorough testing regime. It's possible to be fully supportive of the use of GM in the human food chain and think that the current situation falls below best practice. I certainly do, in much the same way that I think current drug development often falls below best practice. (In fact, if I had to pick one, I'd say that's more of a problem, but then you get into the whole if-you-disagree-with-pharmaceutical-companies-you-must-support-alternative-medicine thing, and, arrrrgh.)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2105 posts Report

  • Amy Gale, in reply to BenWilson,

    Yes, I remember a poignant example of this, when a friend was telling me he had been studying fast Fourier transforms…
    […]
    …it was highly likely that the result he was talking about would have been very useful to me in computing.

    Nah, it’s way more EE-ish than CS-y. Signal, schmignal, I say.

    The one cent version is something like: a complicated waveform can be approximated by a linear combination of simpler waveforms. A Fourier transform maps a complicated waveform onto its decomposition (and sometimes back again). A fast Fourier tranform is an algorithm for doing this “fast”. Whatever that means. Better than quadratic, maybe.

    If you want to DO any transforming then, yeah, algebra awaits.

    tha Ith • Since May 2007 • 471 posts Report

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Sacha,

    GMO crops cause allergies

    What, someone has experimentally proved that’s not true? I thought part of the resistance to GM crops was the lack of precautionary research before their release.

    GMO crops are claimed to be a allergy risk above and beyond traditionally developed crops. They are not. With millions of hectares of GMO crops in the ground and decades of consumption it is absolutely clear that there is no allergy risk from the GMO process. There is also a huge amount of research out there trying to find any allergy to GMO - all of which has shown no allergic response to GMO. Please don't reduce the argument to "you can't have looked in every place for Pooh so therefore you can't be certain he doesn't exist", such an argument is beneath you.

    As with all food some people somewhere will be allergic but not as a result of the GMO process.

    And your comment about lack of precautionary research before release is another example of an objection that is false. GMO crops are the most researched food crop ever produced in human history. If you actually care about human health there are other places to look.

    You can play word games if you want and get me to say I can't be 100% sure a food is 100% safe but that is inane and nothing to do with "ethics".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report

  • Sacha, in reply to Bart Janssen,

    There is also a huge amount of research out there trying to find any allergy to GMO - all of which has shown no allergic response to GMO.

    That's what I was asking, thanks. I'm not so interested in the topic as others, so I recall opposition a while back based on lack of precautionary research. No dog in the fight.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Given that there are scientists on both sides of the debate, that sounds like the kind of unfounded folk belief that you find so risible among those horrid anti-GE god botherers.

    Sigh. Like the climate "debate" there are scientists on both sides. Feel free to ignore the vast majority of the scientific community and believe the few objectors. While it's true there have been times when the scientific community has been proven wrong, they are rare. Oh and you better be damn certain you absolutely trust the motivations of those opposing the accepted view - some of them get paid by businesses with financial interests in opposing the scientific consensus, not all but some.

    If anything it is this kind of "scientist" vs "scientist" conflict that is one of the most complex to understand when you are outside the specialist field being debated.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 4461 posts Report

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