Activists are angry that their houses have been raided, some at gun point, at dawn, people?

Richards' five-minutes-old party membership should be in question now — it'd be good riddance, given the damage he's done — and he has only himself to blame if the police do decide to prosecute for assault.

Um. What about Trevor Mallard then?

But this didn't happen in New Zealand: it happened in Fiji, at the hands of the police thugs controlled by Tame Iti's good?

That was a bloody dangerous thing to do: he could have seriously hurt someone. Fortunately, the video footage suggests that Phillips fended off the swing and wasn't struck square in the face.

Just like it was fortunate Mallard wasn't captured on film.

Just like it was fortunate Mallard wasn't captured on film.

Well at least that might have settled all the who-started-it blathering since.

But I think this was much more dangerous than whatever Mallard did — if Phillips hadn't got his arm up it'd have been broken facial bones territory.

This is what I think I mean about MANA being complicated stuff.

I hold no brief for Richards — I'm quite happy to see him charged and/or expelled, whatever — but the confrontation was at least in part a result of the atmosphere generated by the protesters.

Richards behaviour is explicable, but not excusable. And it's very hard to escape the impression?

I'll actually defend Clark a bit on the issue of backing the Police. If people are going to prejudge the cases and have protest marches, and condemn the Police non stop, I don't have a problem with the PM saying that the?

It was good popcorn, thank you very much.

I was going to pop in and wish you well with it. If ever there was a prime schadenfreude opportunity ...

However what is intriguing is why Clark is now getting more robust in her defence of the Police. She absolutely refused?

What riled me earlier in the week was?

But if we're going to agree that there was no excuse for what Richards did, I'd have to take issue with Margaret when she makes excuses for the abusive and aggressive behaviour of some of the protesters.

I thought Margaret's analysis was spot on. And I thought it was oriented?

Read the comments on Indymedia, and you can see they're like a sort of theatre criticism. You looked great at that demo, darling! There doesn't seem to be any sense of what is to be accomplished outside of presenting a spectacle.

Sigh ... I spent several hours on a Sunday?

I thought Margaret's analysis was spot on. And I thought it was oriented to explanation, not excuses.

I fear the difference is in the eye of the beholder. I really don't think one incident justifies all the subsequent stupidity and aggression; and it certainly doesn't justify all the self-serving whingeing?

I'm damned if I am going to allow my justifiable concern for our civil rights to be turned into some kind of "bring down the state" yelling and screaming.

Me neither. I have a seven year old child that attends a state school just for starters.

And as long as I'm going with the theatre metaphor, specifically, it's amateur theatre. The kind that's done for the participants, not the audience.

It is interesting to note that National, and Labour have been very reserved in their public comments. Compare this to the Greens and the Maori Party who have been somewhat more forthright with their opinions.

Now remember both Key and Clark?

I hold no brief for Richards — I'm quite happy to see him charged and/or expelled, whatever — but the confrontation was at least in part a result of the atmosphere generated by the protesters.

Would it have killed them to stop screaming "Scab! Scab! Scab!" for a moment and?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0711/S00042.htm

Perhaps if Cullen had actually worn that bikini ...

This is the news we could have been talking about instead:

Why? Michael Cullen sez we rock, the Tories are Blue Meanies, vote for us or the puppy gets it – what a shock. I expect Bill English to be throwing exactly the same soundbites of partisan raw meat to?

No it wouldn't have, but just to play devil's advocate how the hell does someone with Ovens' experience in the union movement read a crowd that badly?

It's easy to say that with hindsight, but I don't think she did anything wrong, apart from muttering the words "you stupid ..."?

Which reminds me – PA System must have just reached its one-year anniversary by now (even though it seems like it's been around for much longer).

Why? Michael Cullen sez we rock, the Tories are Blue Meanies, vote for us or the puppy gets it – what a shock.

Yeah, but you would say that ;-)

I thought it was a good, vigorous speech, and and interesting one, in that it looks to embody the 2008?

Of course, if she hadn't tried to talk to the protesters, the narrative would have been that she scuttled away to the safety of the venue, afraid to face the crowd. Or something.

You're probably right – but I have a funny feeling there's a few folks in Labour (whatever?

Yeah, but you would say that ;-)

Well, of course I would – it's the textbook conference speech every deputy leader has given since the year dot. And while it would be rather nice if Cullen had conceded the next election, and admitted they're all been utterly useless, I'm not?

In the One News video, captured from the police vantage point, the incident is swift, and Richards retires. The fact that the police agreed to investigate once they'd seen the TV3 pictures suggests that they didn't fully grasp what had happened at the time.

I don't buy that. What were?

I do find it a bit twee that the "one incident" of Richards hitting protesters?

The fact that the police agreed to investigate once they'd seen the TV3 pictures suggests that they didn't fully grasp what had happened at the time.

Now let me preface what I am about to say with the fact that I have always found you to be level headed and?

Now let me preface what I am about to say with the fact that I have always found you to be level headed and even handed in your commentary but,
If at least one of those police personel less than 5m away didn't see that then I'm the next All?

secret stuff is going on, people are being rounded up, denied bail, people are being pulled out of there cars and photographed without warrants, police are going around dressed as ninjas – it just seems so, well, un-kiwi .I think the secrecy just pushes people buttons.

The secrecy does push?

Now, moving on to the?

Me neither. I have a seven year old child that attends a state school just for starters.

You don't need a state to run schools. They can be collectively run by the community. I believe that in Barcelona during the Civil War the anarchist CNT ran schools.

A school run?

Denning refused to consider?

You don't need a state to run schools. They can be collectively run by the community.

A well run school is run in connection with its community. I agree that you don't need the state to run schools but at present I think they are probably a better option.

A?

In the same way, I think that people are refusing to believe that activists are being arrested for their beliefs in NZ and clinging to the idea that those in power have secret information that Tame Iti was going to nuke Auckland, or whatever.

Rich, as you might guess from?

...the idea that those in power have secret information that Tame Iti was going to nuke Auckland...

I think that we can explain most of this by enthusiasm + cockup + groupthink. Enthusiasm to testdrive the whole anti-terror apparatus, cockup in assessing the meaning of the evidence gathered (eg whether?

A school run by an anarchist collective would provide better education than one run by the state. It wouldn't be aimed at turning out docile call-centre fodder, for one thing.

I was kind of hopeing Victoria university might still be in operation should my child not grow up to become?

Having protested party meetings myself the idea is to be heard inside & disrupt the pleasantries. I've been upto the glass windows with cops watching?

Could the protestors have tried any harder to reinforce stereotypes? I'm not sure what was sillier the 'police state' guy or someome still wearing a Che Gueva t-shirt.

The protestors – obviously none of them have ever spent any time in a real police state.?

Jill as a labour party member was a target of the protest irrespective of her personal stand point the party was the target of the protest to yeld would be to yeld to the party especially as she is a recent convert so "Scab" is fitting as well.

That's the?

I wonder if a few think things have gone too far to the right with TSA, the arrests and want to bring Labour down as?

wonder if a few think things have gone too far to the right with TSA, the arrests and want to bring Labour down as all acts must have consequences?

I doubt there's much thinking going on at all. The response by some to the recent arrests is virtually pavlovian.

Read?

Contrary to certain fevered opinion, the Labour Party does not actually direct the police.

Um, a certain party member, namely Helen Clark, directs the SIS. The SIS gather "evidence" and select some to hand to the police. The police then run 'round like it's Halloween and lay charges (to?

Turns out, Ovens had a reasonable expectation of a hearing when she went out to the crowd — she was handed the megaphone by an organiser. But the idiot tendency kept on chanting "Lies! Lies! Lies!" until she gave up. I'm sorry, but what a?

This morning's Herald story is illuminating.

I have to agree with you, especially this wee quote:

Helen Clark said yesterday morning on TV One's Agenda the crowd had been "highly provocative".

She had seen a reference to the crowd calling someone a "scab", though nothing excused a person taking a?

Re. the raids – i think we will find that a handful of those arrested will be guilty of some small arms offences. But I suspect that a good majority are guilty?

"Highly provocative" seems to be a bit of an understatement. Those guys were desperately looking for a fight.

Really, johnno? I know there are politicians of all stripes who regard any criticism whatsoever as outright treason, but I don't take them any more seriously than wannabe revolutionaries who've never been?

What were the police to do when they have video evidence of the accused conducting what can only be described as paramilitary training?

Thats a hypothetical question. Lets not forget, some of the people arrested where serious documentary film makers. They may well have alternative explanations, to what the prosecution?

They may well have alternative explanations, to what the prosecution offers.

And should be entitled to due process and the presumption of innocence as everyone else, even you think they're complete arse-hats and/or it's politically convenient to fudge the line between an allegation, a charge and a conviction?

Thats a hypothetical question. Lets not forget, some of the people arrested where serious documentary film makers. They may well have alternative explanations, to what the prosecution offers.

I would have expected a documentary maker to have a camera or microphone in their hands, rather than wearing balaclavas and carrying?

I would have expected a documentary maker to have a camera or microphone in their hands, rather than wearing balaclavas and carrying a firearm, but I'm a little old-fashioned in that respect. It seems the only video recording going on was hidden surveillance stuff from the cops.

I think the?

I'm guessing most if not all of what's been leaked will turn up in evidence, but will stand or fall on its context (and, in the case of bugged conversations wrt to arms charges, its legal admissability).

We?

We and/or a court might hear it and still think "paranoid police idiocy", but there will still be enough in it to embarrass the supporters of those arrested.

In the end, RB, when this is over the more hysterical souls on both sides who ought to be embarrassed won't be.?

I can't help thinking that the refusal by the courts to grant bail to many of those arrested indicates that the Police have at least a stronger case than has been made public to date.

I can't help thinking it may have a little more to do with the district?

Ok, I have to learn some discipline about writing shorter comments!

Please don't. Message boards lend themselves to snipping back and forth in little paragraphs. This is not necessarily very illuminating if ya know what I mean....
You seem to have a sustained train of thought there. Bravo.

Well the UK went for over a thousand years (up to about 1840) with no organised police force. (Not sure whether NZ had some form of cops from day 1?).

I do think our police force?

Well the UK went for over a thousand years (up to about 1840) with no organised police force.

And was a delightful paradise, where the workers lived in happy equality free of imposition of force from moneyed elites...

You gonna regret you said that man.

Revolutionary Anarchists and Nostalgic Aristocratic types have a lot in common – they both hate universal suffrage.

I know it's mean to make fun of Indymedia (and the NZ one's pretty good really – at least you don't get the creepy anti-semitism that infects some of the others), but I thought the following?

What do you call the Knights of the Round Table then?

Seriously, yeah, society won't collapse just because there's no police. It won't collapse with no broadband either, but in both cases?

Their solidarity is in reaction to a joint police action. The various groups don't link themselves together but rather the imagination of the police to tie the various groups as one.

I think at least some of the activists have acknowledged attending the Urewera camps, so I don't think a?

I think Winston Churchill gave one answer to this after?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10474008

As for who'll?

That sort of parallel with the government of New Zealand is frankly offensive.

Just a slight aside, but I was a bit surprised to see Chris Knox pop up doing Labour's new theme song. Obviously he's always been more sympathetic to the left than the right, but I thought it wouldn't be his cup-of-tea having such direct involvement with Labour.

I presume it's?

Why is it that a big chunk of 20th century history has cones and tape round it and you can't go there without offending people? I wasn't saying that the NZ government is in any way comparable?

Why is it that a big chunk of 20th century history has cones and tape round it and you can't go there without offending people?

The millions of dead people make it kind of obviously a bad comparison to anyone who isn't a complete fucking idot.

The millions of dead people make it kind of obviously a bad comparison to anyone who isn't a complete fucking idot.

And what proportion of the Maori population died, from disease and war, after colonisation? I know that (most of) the British didn't have the same genocidal motivations, but it's?

A school run by an anarchist collective would provide better education than one run by the state.

Umm, no. Unless you want to teach kids to reject any kind of responsibility or structure or society.

I wouldn't argue that anarchist collectives would run a great school system. But your response?

The Labour-Flying Nun connection isn't new though. Last time the TV election advertising song was The Clean's 'Anything Could Happen'. Everybody just conveniently forgot that the song is actually about going to the doctor and trying to score drugs ...

That factoid tickles me nicely. The hallmark of a successful?

(and apologies to Deborah that this paragraph largely rehashes a comment I made on her excellent blog last week).

No worries! Your analysis deserves a much wider audience than it will get over at my place.

One of the Reagan campaigns used 'Born in the USA' as a theme song, presumably because?

(typical Churchill incident – in 1913, when the original UVF were threatening insurrection in Northern Ireland, his chosen weapon to deal with this?

From this side of the ditch it looks like a group of people have been arrested on firearms charges. Serious charges like possession of illegal firearms always take some time to get to defended hearings in a court of law. Have there?

I think Churchill was a wanker even by the standards of his time. He was just our wanker.

I walked into the conference having 'shame' and 'scab' yelled at me, and then went straight into a meeting where we discussed what mechanisms to implement to help improve the lot of low paid workers like myself and my workmates.

Yeah, I have some sympathy with that but I don't?

I think Churchill's prime achievement in WW2 was to lead a government that delivered total mobilisation to win the war. Like the North in the American Civil War, the allies didn't win because they had clever generals and braver troops?

Are we really seriously considering that NZ's anarchists ... are somehow in the same abhorrent political category as neo-Nazis?

No, I think they're supposed to be Churchill, and Tame Iti et al are the Nazis. Or something like that. The original quote was just supposed to show that some people?

I'm no military historian, so from my point of view Churchill's greatest achievement was to get a cuvee of Pol Roger named after him.

According to legend, he'd drink a quart of the stuff before getting out of bed in the morning. That's the way to win a war.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4262608a28.html

Most of the strategic bombing criticism seems to focus on the moraility of it rather than the objective of destroying means of production ie it wasn't accurate enough and so there were bound to be civilian casualties.

The counter to that is, the war was a total one and?

I was wondering where the Churchill quote would go & I think a comparison with Churchill as Clark and Ghandi as Iti could?

the man was a giant of this time, but utterly fallible, and a worthless strategist. most his "wins" were slick with the blood of commonwealth soldiers.

it'd be more accurate to say hitler lost the war than churchill won it.

I was wondering where the Churchill quote would go & I think a comparison with Churchill as Clark and Ghandi as Iti could be done as a question of home rule applies to both.

Are you making a concerted effort to make each and every post more fatuous than the last,?

Carry on folks — I have to go and talk to some students about Teh Internets.

Are we really seriously considering that NZ's anarchists... are somehow in the same abhorrent political category as neo-Nazis?

No, we're not. We're attempting to figure out the alliance between them and Tame Iti's crowd, an alliance which certainly baffles me. Follow the quote trail:

Tom Semmens:

I have a wider?

It has been compared to the sacking of Parihaka & so not unreasonable to explore other comparisons. Here's a little bit that draws on that too.

"Parihaka historian Te Miringa Hohaia has studied the life and writings about?

However your original post (below) linked Ghandi and Iti, who, I think we'll all agree, isn't really Te Whiti at all.

I was wondering where the Churchill quote would go & I think?

a comparison with Churchill as Clark and Ghandi as Iti could be done

Who do you think would be most flattered by the comparison?

No, we're not. We're attempting to figure out the alliance between them and Tame Iti's crowd, an alliance which certainly baffles me.

Participation is not the same as an alliance. It certainly appears to me that there were some wananga being held in Tuhoe with a kaupapa of bushcraft, survival?

Quite. This is begging the question. Speculation about why the anarcho-hippies and Tuhoe are allied only make sense if we already believe there is some sort of plot.

Mr Phillips today said he was disappointed Mr Richards and his wife, Service and Food Workers Union delegate Jill Ovens, had not boycotted Labour's conference over the police raids issue.

"While I won't lay charges, I won't let Len absolve?

Quite. This is begging the question. Speculation about why the anarcho-hippies and Tuhoe are allied only make sense if we already believe there is some sort of plot.

A virtual chocolate fish for a correct use of the phrase "begging the question"!

You're right: "alliance" has a shade of meaning?

Hmmm. With that sort of tortured logic I can understand why so many of the arrested think they are innocent:

".Your honour, my client submits participation in terrorism is not the same as being an ally of terrorists..."

I am afraid?

That being said, I watched TV3s footage and thought the police were generally restrained, although towards the end of the footage they started pushing people around for no apparent reason.

The guy trying to put his shoe on? Yeah, they could have let him put his shoe on, but even?

Oh Tom, why are we wasting million on the criminal justice system when we could just engage your common sense?

http://www.maniacworld.com/death-star-cafeteria.html

Gawd. Spare me from Left-wing infighting. Really

QFT, and I really loved "While I won't lay charges, I won't let Len absolve himself by accepting his apology." No, let Len 'absolve' himself by not only making sure he faces no legal accountability whatsoever, but give him a chance to tell?

It isn't. One is reasonably a crime (depending on what you consider terrorism, of course). The other is thoughtcrime, and shouldn't be an offence in a democratic country.

To use Northern Ireland?

Still, it comes with the territory, and I would like to think (perhaps wishfully) that part of the training includes the ability to deal with confrontational protest situations without resorting to bullying tactics.

And when did the Police resort to "bullying tactics" over the weekend?

The only bullying tactics on?

And when did the Police resort to "bullying tactics" over the weekend?

IMO, it was towards the end of the TV3 footage where they start pushing the protesters back, the bit where the guy was trying to tie his shoelaces. I consider pushing people around to be bullying (technically, it's?

I'm pretty much over the whole self-pitying anti-Police leftist thing.

Seemingly the Indymedia crowd are too this morning, now they're drifting into asian migrant bashing instead... Oh Indymedia, you're so progressive!

I'm pretty much over the whole self-pitying anti-Police leftist thing

ditto.

until we find out exactly how far over the line the cops have stepped in this "anti-terror" operation.

but still generally bored with middle-class kids growing dreadlocks and slumming it in trendy causes.

it's just so... "1960s".

Getting the razor out & splitting the hair but anti-police actions in relation to the 17 arrested is not quite the same as anti-police.
Dropped the dime last night infact & they did a mighty fine job.

most of the protesty types from "way back when" have gone on to get jobs as lawyers, accountants, etc. they drive reasonably big cars and talk about real estate.

back then (early 1990s), i found that instead of yelling at people in the street i just adapted my?

I really don't care about them. It seems like a silly game, but let the kids play. As dangerous games go, rugby or boxing is worse. As entertainment goes, I've seen worse street theater. As causes go, at least human?

My view is to wait untill after the court case has started leaves those arrested swinging in the wind a bit too long. I tend to feel safe when marching next to Quakers on both a moral and physical basis.

My view is to wait untill after the court case has started leaves those arrested swinging in the wind a bit too long.

i agree entirely. locking people up for the crime of 'dissent' is reprehensible.

i'm out of the loop on why they're still in the slammer, but they?

Politics is not just about developing our own vision of how the world should be, its about how we organise ourselves?

Or at least should be. There are some monolithic systems set up to oppress the masses, but I don't see it here in NZ.

TSA 2nd reading – Keith Locke. I don't often agree with Rodney Hide, and rarely invoke the ghost of Muldoon, but it pains me to to think how this?

Boo to the far left, and its mirror image on the right.

I think the extremes in society do some important work in helping the moderate majority dwell in a fair&reasonable political climate; the centre of the bell curve is defined as much by the vocal fringes as by the general?

A pipe bomb was thrown into the Browns Bay Police Station on Auckland's North Shore overnight.

The bomb exploded, causing broken windows and shrapnel damage. Repairs are expected to cost several thousand dollars and the public counter area will be closed for the next few days. North Shore Area Commander Les Paterson says it is fortunate the building did not catch fire.">>

Who's to say if it was the looney left or some bored East Coast Bays kids letting loose on Guy Fawkes with a larger than normal "banger". Throwing bottles at cops and destroying police property in the Bays was going on as far back as the early to mid?

All I know about Browns Bay is that it's the "small town" outside of Auckland that Rachel Hunter comes from.

I'm gonna guess it's not known for Tuhoe radicals?

Random acts of bloody dangerous violence by middle class kids. I strongly suspect?

Browns Bay was (still is?) a boring place with a great view. I speak as someone who grew up in the equally boring and beautifully-viewed Mairangi Bay, a few beaches south...

Who's to say if it was the looney left or some bored East Coast Bays kids letting loose on Guy Fawkes with a larger than normal "banger".

Several thousand dollars' shrapnel damage, multiple broken windows and the front counter likely to be out of action for days sounds a bit?

All I know about Browns Bay is that it's the "small town" outside of Auckland that Rachel Hunter comes from.

I'm gonna guess it's not known for Tuhoe radicals?

Brown's Bay is part of the suburban North Shore and the station keeps gentleman's hours. It's near Takapuna, where the conference?

vNot that I'm tieing the two together

Nah, and we really can't. I just don't like seeing fuckwits celebrating it.

Ditto.
I don't want the PM to have the power to designate an individual or a group as terrorists.

Me neither. It's an absolutely retrograde step.

I/S says the Greens plan on moving some amendments to test the major parties. If anyone can give me a heads-up as to when?

I/S says the Greens plan on moving some amendments to test the major parties. If anyone can give me a heads-up as to when that might be, I'd be happy to organise something on PA in support.

Would you really, that would be great. I am about as political as?

I thought Rachel Hunter actually came from Glenfield, several suburbs over. Can someone confirm?

She went to school in Glenfield – the intermediate, so I presume she lived there.

C'mon, Browns Bay, famous for sightings of Shortie St Stars in cafes, and they did (still do?) the filming there.

Would you really, that would be great. I am about as political as a teatowel but this pisses me off and I don't know the political process well enough to do anything useful.

Perhaps a few of us could get together and agree some non-hysterical wording and as many readers?

Perhaps a few of us could get together and agree some non-hysterical wording and as many readers as wish to can then add their names to it.

Yes please.

I don't want the PM to have the power to designate an individual or a group as terrorists.

Me neither. It's an absolutely retrograde step.

I/S says the Greens plan on moving some amendments to test the major parties. If anyone can give me a heads-up as to when that?

Sigh.

They're debating the TSAA as we write.

I should clarify. The Committee stage of the TSAA is on now. It is during the Committee stage that Mr Locke's supplementary order paper will be moved and voted on. He has already mentioned it.

I suppose it is possible that the debate?

As for Shortie St stars in Browns Bay cafes, they have long decamped to the West, not sure exactly where, but all the filming is done out that way now – I think the shift happened when MacKenzie drove a truck into the hospital for?

I think the extremes in society do some important work in helping the moderate majority dwell in a fair&reasonable political climate; the centre of the bell curve is defined as much by the vocal fringes as by the general public.

I agree that those with unconventional beliefs have an equal right?

Brown's Bay is part of the suburban North Shore and the station keeps gentleman's hours.

Ouch... slightly unkind, Russell. There are plenty of suburban stations that are not staffed 24/7, and least anyone complain that I can't give the incumbent Government credit for anything I can literally turn my head?

...where was the anti-terror hysteria two years ago? I mean the National Front have been committing acts of violence and intimidation, stockpiling explosives and openly boasting of forming a militia and training in the bush.

yes, I don't recall left wing activists getting quite so out of sorts when those?

The cop in charge is Les Patterson http://www.sirlespatterson.com/
if anyones up for a giggle.

Do the Firies investigate or the cops?

LOL poor guy must get that all the time.

I doubt we'll ever know who threw it (thrown bombs seem to be found usually only when the police?

The names of two men arrested in nationwide police raids last month who have been fighting to keep their identity secret can now be revealed.

They are Te Rangikaiwhiria Andrew Kemara, 38, and Tuhoe Francis Lambert, 58.

Kemara is "Cyber Hori", the guy who bought all the?

Voila..

Ross Himona's company — what a bummer for him. I used to deal with Ross when I was an IT journalist; very nice guy.

Voila..

Well, it's looking like a defense.

As
Paul Buchanan said in his article in scoop today.

Assuming they had the capabilities to undertake a terrorist act, at what stage of preparation was the Urewera 17? How far along were they in their training and build-up to the event? How?