Up until I heard the viciousness of the assault I was fence-sitting, probably because of the image he portrayed on screen – I liked the guy (or the image) but if he's done what it has been said, there is no longer any doubt in my mind.

I wasn't horribly?

The police should investigate to make sure she wasn't coerced into anything, but surely they have better things to?

If truly contrite I'd like Veitch to volunteer for the campaign.

I'm not making excuses for that little jerk, but Joe Public might well get confused. Yes the 'he's a good guy' comments over on Stuff are way dumb.

Didn't __[name under suppression?

I can't help feeling sorry for his wife, though – no matter how much she knew, she probably never expected it to become so excruciatingly public.

i'm assuming you're talking about zoe halford. if so, don't feel bad for her.

with a mug like that she'll be on every [woman's]?

The problem here is a?

Veitch did exactly that, when he really should?

They are great, honking, very obvious public policy reasons that we don't allow people to contract out of criminal responsibility.

Aren't there quite a few precedents for (sports-related) public figures getting away with domestic violence accusations relatively unscathed?

No, I think in general they've been prosecuted and dealt with in ways commensurate with the offence. The idea that All Blacks habitually get away with these things is hard to stand?

You do something as stupid as that

There are a lot of words I'd use to describe his actions, but 'stupid' seems rather too complimentary. 'Stupid' is locking your keys in the car or forgetting your mum's birthday... not breaking your girlfriend's back.

Absent a full confession from Veitch, or evidence from his ex, it'll be difficult to get a conviction.

surely the police can get access to her medical records from the hospital that treated her, confirm the date of the event and there is the proof they need? also, i would?

I would really love to know how much and for how long TVNZ knew about all this.

Yes, Michael. In fact, we should demand to know. (ditto: Radio Network).

If his employers knew (and it seems that at least some people did), then they should be resigning themselves. To cover?

the other worrying thing here is the alleged time lapse between when the injuries were sustained and ms dunne-powell reached the hospital. i would hate to think what might have been happening in that period of time.

That troubles me a lot too.

I went ahead with the campaign, and I feel nothing but good about doing so. It has been a privilege to be involved with it.

And so you should. It gets its point across without upsetting me so badly I have to leave the room, which makes it the first?

If his employers knew (and it seems that at least some people did), then they should be resigning themselves.

sorry, not good enough. if they knew and failed to report to the police, then they should be prosecuted and convicted for aiding and abetting or whatever it's called these days.?

pushing someone to the ground and kicking them so hard you break their back isn't "lashing out", it's – I don't even know if vicious is strong enough.

You forgot the "repeatedly" in there, which means the words you're looking for are "vicious" and "sustained".

I'm not so sure he should be prosecuted. Isn't it up to the victim whether to make a complaint? She chose not to, and I think we should respect her choice.

The reason the ancient Athenians moved to public prosecution for crimes was precisely because private prosecution allowed the rich?

what is the victim knew that if this became public she would become a public figure. maybe she felt she'd lived though enough?

and maybe she didn't want it to become public because of the way media treats victims of domestic violence and all the nasty comments that pop up?

what is the victim knew that if this became public she would become a public figure. maybe she felt she'd lived though enough?

Maybe that's what she was thinking, and that's entirely her prerogative. But the fact of the matter is that it _is_ public now (and didn't have to?

(putting aside the merits of these polls, which sadly are here to stay)

So why spend time worrying about whether you can replace him? Just that one night after this?

surely the police can get access to her medical records from the hospital

Surely not! Seriously, if that's possible in the absence of a complaint I'm disturbed beyond words. Medical records are private! As an example, a friend used to be an Army medic. Access to medical records in the?

am i a total Pollyanna for hoping that people are able to be rehabilitated?

I certainly hope so, and I support that. After they've been punished.

Veitch gets the Tui treatment.

WTF? The first thing that billboard said to me was that the person paid to be quiet had cheated.?

I was working seven days a week and two stressful jobs

But of course, he wasn't making an excuse. No, sir.

The first thing that billboard said to me was that the person paid to be quiet had cheated.

I agree entirely...it's really f*cking poor from Tui and suggests that the victim was the one who disclosed the information.

But then this sort of behaviour and Tui.....

The other thing that?

Surely not! Seriously, if that's possible in the absence of a complaint I'm disturbed beyond words. Medical records are private!

then what would be the point of allowing a case to go ahead without a formal complaint, not just in this case but in any case? that law becomes pointless?

And, finally, a fascinating essay on the Pew website about the changing face of evangelical Christianity in America, in a year when the decisions of people of faith may have great political bearing.

There's an interesting article on this in the June 30 issue of the New Yorker (not online?

But the man gave her money to shut her up

Who was it that said "blood money" upstream? I think that's an accurate & sobering description.

i'd also be interested in the code of ethics for lawyers, as paul pointed out in the fundy post do they have absolutely no responsibility to report the crime, even as they draw up the settlement agreement around it?

No, is the short version. The long version is found at?

I would suggest that the absence of a pack mentality is what brought this story to light. Would it have been exposed by a reporter on Newstalk ZB? One News? Would it have got to air?

Which do modern media organisations value more, truth or their corporate celebs on?

but I feel it is warranted here: what a cunt.

My wife (out of the country & oblivious to this – I doubt the story has legs in Oz) would disagree, she'd say he was not worthy enough to be a cunt.

she'd say he was not worthy enough to be a cunt

indeed. 'cunt' is a dirty word for a beautiful thing.

veitch is just a dirty word.

The first thing that billboard said to me was that the person paid to be quiet had cheated.

I agree entirely...it's really f*cking poor from Tui

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I thought I was reading it wrong. But it appears not. Awesome.

My wife (out of the country & oblivious to this – I doubt the story has legs in Oz)

And that, unless he serves a lengthy prison term, is exactly where he will end up.

then what would be the point of allowing a case to go ahead without a formal complaint, not just in this case but in any case?

If the case can be built and demonstrated with evidence that's publicly available, then where's the problem? A complaint isn't necessary to pull news?

Ane when, oh when, will such such stories not be sorted into the Entertainment section of the paper/web site/Google news..?

In general, when the "celebrity" topic is missing dogs, or stolen car, and even marital problems or hookups.... I'm 100% with you....

But serious assault is NOT for the entertainment?

serious assault is NOT for the entertainment pages

Glad we agree Fletcher B...

Woof. Here's a comments thread to raise your blood pressure.

Oh wow. Did I read Owen McShane's comment right? Because I swear he's saying that Ms Dunne-Powell has to accept responsibility as much as Veitch...

Did I read Owen McShane's comment right?

I think you did – I'm so glad Danyl got to it before me – he's so much more eloquent with the put downs.

he's so much more eloquent with the put downs.

I'm not sure eloquence is noted/appreciated by those on KB

The public might be interested, but is it really "public interest"?

the public interest would be to convict those who commit assault. the reason why action can be taken without a complaint?

I think the Dompost decided to take a punt even though they only used unnamed sources. The journalist Bernadette Courtenay must have been very confident of her sources that the story was true. A publication can mount a defence that it is not defamation if it is the truth.?

I'm not sure eloquence is noted/appreciated by those on KB

I appreciate it :)

She chose not to, and I think we should respect her choice.

What, like the way when a Mongrel Mob member beats the shit out of someone, we shouldn't be at all concerned about the victim "deciding not to complain to the police"?

indeed. 'cunt' is a dirty word for a beautiful thing.

veitch is just a dirty word

Thoroughly seconded. If description is needed, I think "pathetic" and "disgusting" will do quite nicely.

Are there things we don't know that might count as mitigating circumstances?

What possible mitigating circumstance could there be?

"Here's a hundred grand – keep it quiet. Yeah right".

http://www.radiosport.co.nz/WhosOn/Detail.aspx?id=65

Unfortunate use of cliche there ...

Vicious sustained beating is a crime against?

"it makes you realise where apes come from"

I'm not sure how I missed that one on the first go-round. Jaysus.

a fascinating essay about the changing face of evangelical Christianity in America, ......... I'd love to have such an authoritative eye as Pew's on our own Christian movements.

Can I suggest that if you want an authoritative view of conservative Utopian thought ( including religion) that you read "Black Mass"?

How does that conversation go, anyway?

Here's some money. Shut up or I'll give you another hiding?

That performance yesterday seemed mainly aimed at influencing what his employers do next, given the very deliberate wording that he used (after spending a couple of days with lawyers working out what to do next).

There surely can't be any question about what his employers do next. Clint Brown was?

A simple "if he stays in his job, I won't be appearing with him, joshing around and pretending it's all good", or words to that effect.

It's not exactly?

(dunno, might be putting the boot in a bit much myself here).

Hasn't his house been on the market for a while? Does he owe someone $100k or something?

(dunno, might be putting the boot in a bit much myself here).

Ouch. Kick a man while he's down eh...

If you've promised your source confidentiality, then they may not want to back you up publicly. One way?

What possible mitigating circumstance could there be for knocking someone to the ground and kicking them until their back broke?

For knocking someone to the ground? Assault, a reasonable fear thereof, give me a while and I can come up with some more.

Kicking them until their back breaks? That's?

am i a total Pollyanna for hoping that people are able to be rehabilitated?

:( ........
apparently in this world of understanding and compassion, anti death penalty, prison systems don't work because it a punishment, (not a remedy), war on drugs is a war on personal freedom, mental health is?

Robinson faced terrible racism – institutional and otherwise – in?

Kicking them until their back breaks? That's a little more challenging.

Oh, just a little, huh?

looks like there's gonna be a lynchin', stand back so's you don't get run over by the posse

Yeah, gee, it's really sad how everyone gets all het up over minor incidents like this.?

Would a single blow be the same as a "prolonged vicious beating"? We do not know.

Ian, for all the assumptions being made, it is at the very least reasonable to presume that it was not a "single blow" that fractured a woman's back in four places.

Redemption is possible – but it?

reputation into disrepute

'Scuse my syntax

I don't know what happened but there are many cases of guys falling over and banging their heads ending up dead.

A friends brother ended up on deathrow in Texas after one punch, a?

What possible mitigating circumstance could there be for knocking someone to the ground and kicking them until their back broke?

For knocking someone to the ground? Assault, a reasonable fear thereof, give me a while and I can come up with some more.

Kicking them until their back breaks? That's?

BOP Times Dick Moore

"Well I want to look my best in a figure-hugging, hand-stitched Ku Klux Klan outfit when I zip up to South Auckland to join the newly created Asian vigilante groups.

They've been overrun by robbers, crackheads, lowlifes and killers?

Littlest actions can have very bad results. TRhat's why no violence is good & we no-longer use the 'rule of thumb'.

Ah, what? I thought it was because there's no justification, despite what certain texts say about a stick the width of one's thumb, for using any violence against another?

What she said

"The spokesman said it would, however, probably not be an issue as Ms Dunne-Powell did not appear to have gained financially from ACC."

But...

"The ACC website lists "Misrepresenting their accident and/or injury" as an example of fraud.?

So legally, both TVNZ and Radio Live would be well within their rights to give him the boot (pun not intended).

Provided they were not already aware of the incidents that caused the disrepute....

You cant claim "oh, you've besmirched me/us by association with your actions becoming public knowledge, even?

Littlest actions can have very bad results. TRhat's why no violence is good & we no-longer use the 'rule of thumb'.

And never had it.

Debunker.com has one refutation.

Even wikipedia would have put you right:

The earliest citation comes from Sir William Hope?s The Compleat Fencing-Master, second edition, 1692, page?

a little light bashing can get out of hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q-2TAfM3Fg

Please Thom, think hard about your use of the word "cunt" as the ultimate insult for a male.

My bad

I too, found Tony Veitch likeable and positive onscreen (as opposed to, say, Paul Henry, who puts people down all the time). I avoid One Network News, but will watch for Veitch's segment, so I came?

My own personal feelings about Veitch are admittedly biased by distaste for the wider culture whose blokish persona he cultivates so profitably,?

Lynching, incidentally, has almost precisely nothing to do with how we're discussing the incident. No one here has come anywhere near calling for Veitch to be hung up by a tree, burned, beaten, and have his genitals and tongue cut out, while the rest of the community has a picnic?

you have an active and colourful imagination not short on gory detail

No, I have a vivid memory of all the tutoring I did in American history. Someone says 'lynch mob', and I think of the 19th and 20th century lynchings of African-Americans. Which included everything I mentioned in my?

It is wrong to allow an unofficial justice system for people with deep pockets.

It's easy to offer restoration when you can afford to drop $100K. Rich people have to suffer in jail?

and I think of the 19th and 20th century lynchings of African-Americans.

noted, but there's historical use of a term, and current use of a term.
gay old time being a prime example of the former, or the later, depending on what you wish to describe.

Out of fairness to RB, I won?t post it here, but I have on the Sportsfreak forum.

gay old time

You mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX53PVe8Rck

the reason why action can be taken without a complaint for domestic violence is around issues of intimidation of the victim, isn't it?

Yes, and that's perfectly understandable. The police can act without a complaint, though for minor matters they often won't because of the difficulties of evidence and so?

I think you did – I'm so glad Danyl got to it before me – he's so much more eloquent with the put downs.

Indeed: that was a put-down equal to the challenge of addressing the colossal stupidity of the original comment.

it may well be, but she is the victim so how about her rights
tight to privacy etc etc

but guess what she is now a public figure as a result, and has lost some of her?

IF this had gone to court in the first place, her name could have been suppressed, and?

Whispers here are that the Dompost haven?t finished yet. Not by a long shot.

Yes. I heard there's more tomorrow.

Out of fairness to RB, I won?t post it here, but I have on the Sportsfreak forum.

Ta. And hmmmm.

Sue, rights have to be balanced. Otherwise every time a celeb commits a crime that harms someone else in an interesting way, we'll have to hush it up, and that's not right either.

That's why I brought up the rugby player case. A lot of people were screaming about All?

Reasonable fear of assault isn't a mitigating circumstance, it's a defence.

I pleasd use of common English, not legalese, in my response.

if this went to court
going through the court system?

gay old time

You mean like this?

who know's what the hollywood theme tune writer had in his head when he constructed that tune,
who know's why Veitch an apparently sane man in an extremely high profile position thought it would be a good idea to cripple his girlfriend,
what?

TVNZ has received numerous requests from media for answers to questions concerning Tony Veitch.

Some of these questions are completely appropriate and TVNZ has every intention of responding to legitimate enquiries as soon as this is possible.

Chief Executive Rick Ellis says TVNZ wants?

Um... is there any difference at all between the historic & current ussage of the term "lynch mob"?

Danielle's using it in a specific fashion. "Lynch mob" is a far broader context than the subset of lynch mobs killing black Americans.

the public relations managed 'apology'

Veitch needs to get a new PR company to write his statements. Or maybe not.

– He "let" her come to his house for dinner.

– The money was for the "loss of income and distress". Excuse me but several broken bones resulting from a vicious?

is there any difference at all between the historic & current ussage of the term "lynch mob"?

similar but without the racial and family picnic overtones probably, and the gory details of castration and tongue removal (which I have noticed danielle has slipped into conversation before hand), and possibly without the?

I think the media needs to take a good hard look at itself

The media generally publishes what it thinks will sell. People got all upset about celebrity gossip and photography when Princess Di died, but I didn't notice any of the magazines publishing that crap going out of business.?

and look i know one law for the rich one law for everyone else sucks.

but lets consider that being the victim of the rich or the high profile has it's own extra set of hurdles

and she might have got name suppression, but equally she might not have.

The courts are very liberal with name suppression for victims, and the (non-tabloid) media are pretty good about respecting their privacy even when there's no suppression.

- The money was for the "loss of income and distress". Excuse me but several broken bones resulting from a vicious assault and a subsequent breakdown qualify as a bit more than distress.

Quite.

If you offered me $100K not to complain about belting me in the face, I might?

the reason why action can be taken without a complaint for domestic violence is around issues of intimidation of the victim, isn't it?

That's part of it. It was a change in police policy in the early 1990s to always arrest the offender (where it was immediately clear who the?

It's hardly "all the medias fault."

I didn't say it was, you'll note I specifically said "the media and the consumers of that media" You're right, the media publishes what it thinks the public wants to hear, but it's a two-way street that, equally the public wants what its used?

which I have noticed danielle has slipped into conversation before hand

Well, as I said earlier, maybe my discomfort with the term is solely 'on me', as it were. I do tend to remember historical facts like that. (I also know heaps about the history of underwear, but no one?

It was a change in police policy in the early 1990s to always arrest the offender (where it was immediately clear who the offender was) when they attend a domestic violence situation.
...
More importantly though it was a practical purpose. It got the offender out of the house for?

Plenty of anecdotes out there from guys who spent a night in the cells after being attacked by their female partner.

Funny you should say that – Ross over in Kiwiblogland, in the tui thread, is suggesting Veitch might have been the assaulted party & wondering why we're not villifying the?

$100K to snap my spine repeatedly? No thanks. Anyone who thinks this is overblown, well, put your hands up. Would you take $100K to have your back broken in four places?

Having read 8 pages of comments, I'm not sure how I feel about telling her what she should have?

These days, though, you can insert "male" in place of "offender". Plenty of anecdotes out there from guys who spent a night in the cells after being attacked by their female partner. It's going to take another big culture change before "offender" is the appropriate word to use.

Yes. It?

since no one here appears to be doing what you say they're doing, robbery

It wasn't just me, I noted it in support of a comment by sue, and ian put it more strongly, plus comments from a couple of others.
The first page of this thread had a good?

Would you take $100K to have your back broken in four places?

Not the question. Having had your back broken in four places would you prefer:

* $100,000; or
* this

These days, though, you can insert "male" in place of "offender". Plenty of anecdotes out there from guys who spent a night in the cells after being attacked by their female partner. It's going to take another big culture change before "offender" is the appropriate word to use.

I think?

um... isn't that just a bit emotive.....?

Yes. I heard there's more tomorrow.

I was saying yesterday to a mate that the Dom will treat this story like they did with Tuku Morgan's undies – they'll drip-feed the story bit by bit for?

Ross over in Kiwiblogland, in the tui thread, is suggesting Veitch might have been the assaulted party & wondering why we're not villifying the aggressive woman in the wheelchair.

Nobody has it coming to end up in a wheelchair. If he's strong enough to break her back, he's strong enough to?

We've just got media coverage and conjecture on a partial story. I hoped we'd be above that, but didn't really believe we would be.

I tried to make my reasoning on this clear in the original post. Fairfax would not have waded in without a clear and legally robust basis?

It's because there wasn't a trial-by-justice-system.

I do think said metaphor is very poorly used in this particular thread

That happens all the time, especially with the term "Nazi": the degrading of a word with specific historical associations to the point where those who bring up those specific historical meanings in an attempt to challenge the?

It's hard to blame the police, because they were doing what is the right thing in the majority of cases in taking the complainant at her word, but it's horrible for the man involved.

But is it the right thing in the majority of cases? There's very solid empirical evidence?

a little light bashing can get out of hand

A truly wonderful Rowan Atkinson clip before Mr Bean turned him into half the comedian he was. The whole video that it's from is great, there's a truly wonderful skit where he's welcoming people into hell. Highly recommended.

There's very solid empirical evidence that domestic violence isn't even close to a one-way street.
Assuming the stats are right that it's about 50:50 on who starts it, and more than one study has said that it's around that level, it's not unreasonable to believe that quite a few DV?

In fact (hazy recollections and my Google foo isn't quite helping me right now) didn't the Dunedin Longitudinal Study show that women are about as likely to be physically violent toward their partner as men are?

Victims of a male perpetrator's violence are more likely to feel that their life?

**"'What DID?

"'What DID you do to her, Tony?' (caps in original)

Sick. Fucks. I've had raw tofu with more taste, and worn hot pants with more class.

Agree. Crassness reminiscent of the most lurid of British tabs

It's not OK for either side!

No. It isn't.

It might be worth noting that even if we accept your gender-neutral approach to 'likelihood of domestic violence', and assume that violence against men by women is underreported, we should perhaps also note that women are far more likely to *be?

The people who work in this area indicate that domestic violence is overwhelmingly male-perpetrated, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

I really have no idea, but I'd anticipate you'd have to add a "serious" in there. I suspect that a far higher proportion of female-perpetrated domestic violence just never?

So saying "we don't know what happened" just doesn't wash.

depends who you mean by 'we'.
I from the media coverage I've seen don't really have a clear picture of what went on on the night, who veitch is apart from "the guy who talks while I read a magazine?

Do you have links for that?

Surely do, and you can find plenty by Googling for things like "domestic violence initiator statistics".

http://www.abs-comptech.com/domestic.html
http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-6.htm
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/fam27.htm
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/html/mlintima_e.html

And the biggie:

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 219 scholarly investigations: 170 empirical studies and 49 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are?

The statement that men and women hit one another in roughly equal numbers is true, however, it cannot be made in a vacuum without the qualifiers that a) women are seriously injured at?

the wealthy could simply pay for criminal acts and walk away with no record

seems to be a lot of that going on at high levels,
exhibit 1) american political figures.

the greater average size and strength of men and their greater aggressiveness means that a man?s punch will probably produce more pain, injury and harm than a punch by a woman

That's the kicker. Men are constrained in how they can respond to being attacked by their partner, because of?

you might like to take a look at it before going to much further down the "but women are violent too" line.

*sigh*
If the only measures that count are serious injury or death, then of course men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators. But if it's who should be hauled away?

He's removed becuase no matter who started it, he's more likely to cause serious physical harm to the other person.

In other words, he's guilty (and punished, because people don't sleep care of the police for the hell of it) because he's male. Taking her away would achieve the same?

Men are constrained in how they can respond to being attacked by their partner, because of their greater physical strength.

Rubbish. When you're stronger and taller and have better reach, you've got more options for dealing with the situation without contributing to the violence – ie restraint.

I've read that?

He's removed becuase no matter who started it, he's more likely to cause serious physical harm to the other person.

Oh, and thanks for completely proving the point I was trying to make. I wasn't attempting to justify DV, or to reinterpret that statistics about who injures who more. I?

So why is he the one who has to go even if she started it?

As long as *someone* has to go, minimising harm dictates that you remove the person statistically likely to cause the most damage. I imagine it's often hard to establish who started it, and of course?

I'm not sure why, then, a divergence into women's domestic violence is warranted

It wasn't intentional. I observed that the default situation is to take the man away when the police are called to DV incidents, despite strong evidence that such a position is unjust. I was asked to support?

Deborah, you are trying to justify female perpetrated domestic violence, Sometimes women?

The Ministry of Health Family Violence Intervention Guidelines (http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/pagesmh/4220/$File/family-violence.pdf) although not always uniformly practised, the advice not to without training?

"A court may order disclosure of transaction details whether they have been recorded or not, although this rarely occurs."

Confirming my suspicion that it would be unlikely for the police to get access to Dunne-Powell's medical records. So unless she complains, the cops will probably have to do it without?

It's because there wasn't a trial-by-justice-system.

Nah, it's a trial by media because they know it'll sell. C'mon, are you seriously suggesting that trial-by-media is any sort of stand in for the real thing? This guy will probably end up?

Deborah, you are trying to justify female perpetrated domestic violence

I never said that, I never would say it, and I rsent that you put the words in my mouth.