Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: Te Qaeda and the God Squad

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  • WH,

    The tone taken by public officials has been more cautious than the tone prevailing in the media. It would be nice to have more information before being invited to reach conclusions, but I guess news doesn't just sell itself.

    This is a neat way of selling two weeks' worth of newspapers. In the first week you print the most dramatic versions of the story that are fit for print, in the second you skewer the hype the first week created and blame the police and government for the resulting hysteria. Wizard.

    Since Nov 2006 • 579 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    I suspect there'll be a small group of nutters who've been talking big about 'revolution' and a subset of them that have taken to playing solidiers in the bush.

    Like, these dudes?

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 349 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I would expect pretty much what he indicated: a few people will have said very, very stupid things in emails, phone conversations and possibly rooms. Things amply sufficient to warrant the interest of the police and upset the middle classes. What else are all the Indymedia types telling each other (and Bomber) to keep schtum about?

    It's entirely possible that there is that evidence that you mention. Certainly the police actions would tend to indicate that.

    However I would take very little notice of conversations now along the lines of "hey don't say a word to the pigs."

    In 1993 I was one of a group of students that got run over and hit by police at a protest here at Otago University. In 1995 I was arrested at the Commonweath Heads of Government Meeting protests. A siege mentality develops on both sides of the protester/police divide. There are secrets, but they're not necessarily about illegal stuff, they're about keeping the police from knowing what you're doing. It might be information about someone who has done some graffiti or about an upcoming occupation or something else similarly harmless.

    It could be exactly what you think it is Russell, and other evidence seems to point to that, but when I was younger I was those young protesters not saying a word, and I would give even odds that it means nothing.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6166 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    I suspect there'll be a small group of nutters who've been talking big about 'revolution' and a subset of them that have taken to playing solidiers in the bush.

    Like, these dudes?

    They may be Nazis, but they're also fairly clearly paintballers. You can start panicing when they start playing with real guns.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1640 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    They may be Nazis, but they're also fairly clearly paintballers. You can start panicing when they start playing with real guns.

    C'mon, even neo-Nazis aren't stupid enough to have on their website a bunch of photos of them touting their weapons about.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 349 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    The XXXXL terrorist situation and the inflated coverage demonstrates our ability as a nation to take the national past time of "lets not get along” to extremes.

    The situation may well be another chapter of the "activist who couldn't", which includes the geezer who went up One Tree Hill with a chain saw to cut the tree down and couldn’t, however, lets wait to see how the XXXXL caper appears in court before going to far.

    The XXXXL caper will play out in the media for years and will immediately fill the vacuum/void left by the ABs’ WC exit and ultimately provide the masterful Tama Iti with the world stage he seems to so desire.

    Banks, another master of “lets not get along”, has been denied the extent and impact of the coverage he sought. Sadly, I don’t see anything about to be “set in concrete” funding and stadium wise and with 2008 around the corner, I am sure the 2011 RWC final will be played in Stadium Australia.

    We are at times an extreme embarrassment to ourselves at hjome and overseas. Lets not get along, lets not vote, lets not get our shit together.

    Hmmn the "4XL Terrorists".

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1191 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    There are secrets, but they're not necessarily about illegal stuff, they're about keeping the police from knowing what you're doing.

    QFT, Kyle. I don't think the Young Nats have ever been closer to 'paramilitary-style training' than the occasional paintball game, but we sure didn't run around posting minutes of campaign strategy meetings or policy debates on the internet. Labour Yoof were equally unobliging, damn them. :)

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11933 posts Report Reply

  • Craig Ranapia,

    But the question is, is the crime of illegal position of a fire arm the same as the illegal possession of a fire-arm for the purpose of influencing the democratic process?

    Neil: I've gotten a bit of stick for saying this, but I think a great deal of the rhetoric flying around the MSM and blogisphere from all sides during the last election campaign was, to be charitable,less than savory and at its worse was either actionable or outright deceptive. I don't see how it was any more, or less, offensive because it was clearly intended to "influence the democratic process".

    North Shore, Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 11933 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes,

    Having followed this thread, and the media coverage, I still stand by my original analysis. This is our government, and I don't care whether it is National or Labour at this point, pandering to foreign influence in the "war on terra"
    It is no coincidence that this happened between the first and second reading of the ammendment to the SoTA.
    Think about it.
    We are considered to be intelligent enough to see through the most blatant abuses of power but when it seems too obvious to be real we don't belive it, we get called paranoid and they get away with stealing what freedoms we actually have left.
    Wake up people. The revelution is here. It's just we didnt expect it to come from those that already had the power.

    The wireless north ;-) • Since Dec 2006 • 4820 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Where missing all the good news:

    Copeland says united Christian party has failed

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • Sam F,

    Survival Club eh? Going to Articles -> General leads you to "Talking to the Dead", by one Kyle Chapman.

    "There are 30,000 gang members in this country who will not be asking for help or seeking to plant their next crop. They are too busy running their drug labs to get busy storing food or water. But they have guns and manpower. Anyone who is alone will be a victim of these nomadic clansmen. Even groups of people who have some supplies will fall prey to the survival need of those who are in stronger numbers and well armed.

    Dare we talk about Firearms in this country? Dare we talk about ammunition storage? These things have been demonised in this country. This is sad because they will be needed items. They are essential for defence (“you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight”) and they are a primary item for gaining food. Secondary items are bows and arrows and cross bows. These simple machines are powerful for hunting and or defence.

    ...

    Anyone who is already prepared I commend you. As you are the living amongst the dead. The sad fact is most people will not be ready, they will wonder around scavenging like the refugees you see on TV in Africa, being picked off by nomadic criminal groups or other hungry dieing scavengers. If you last longer then a few days, you may already have seen those you love 'die, starting with the weakest and smallest of your family. Some men would see their women as a liability. Leaving them to be plundered instead of protecting them. In the survival setting there is no more equal rights, it will fall back to primitive instincts and the natural order of existence. Women will be hunted by the men who feel like they have awoken to their internal calling as barbarian plunderers."

    Crikey indeed.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1557 posts Report Reply

  • Michael Fitzgerald,

    Kyle shouldn't have a licence for fire arms due to his privious terrorist actions, but this should excluded him anyway.

    "They are essential for defence (“you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight”) and they are a primary item for gaining food.Secondary items are bows and arrows and cross bows. These simple machines are powerful for hunting and or defence."

    Crossbows don't need a licence and pistol styled crossbows have killed recently.

    Since May 2007 • 631 posts Report Reply

  • tussock,

    I knew a bit of a Nazi dude from the 'naki who liked playing with /real/ guns, and doing military training. Of course, he was all talk.

    IIRC, he's currently serving another tour in Afghanistan.

    Psst. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Gun ownership rates show no correlation to murder rates (though do show correlation to the proportion of murders committed with guns). Gun laws show a delayed positive correlation with gun crime, which is to say more gun crime produces more gun laws, but gun laws show no effect on gun crime.

    But hey, at least the police have a reason to raid all the protest groups. And don't you love how searches need a warrant unless you're in a car? And isn't it neat how there's a gag order on pretty much every protest group in the country for the next few months?

    Right to protest, right to be free of unwarranted searches, gone in the name of our "safety". Wonderful. It'll be so much better once they don't have to bother with all that nasty "evidence" stuff.

    Since Nov 2006 • 452 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    Sam F, the army will take over in that situation, not gangs. But dude, if it pans out the way you say, it's a world of shit anyway. You'll want a shooter, sure, but you won't last long either way.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8500 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    C'mon, even neo-Nazis aren't stupid enough to have on their website a bunch of photos of them touting their weapons about.

    I dunno, given the photos they've posted in the past. But again, until we see those photos or hear reports of hunters being threatened by armed Nazis, then the police have no reason to act.

    As for the survivalist rhetoric, I think we're better off proving the sad bastards wrong by continuing to exist as a civilised society. Besides, it'll be much more comfortable that way.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1640 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    But if it really mattered to me - like there was a revolution happening in the streets - I would probably find out by checking to see what all the noise was about.

    But I'd have to be quick because, well, unless I'm really naive, I kind of think that some weapons bought on a trademe and a few backyard chemistry experiments would probably not hold out too long against the state.

    That's a ludicrous yardstick. There aren't many terrorist groups that can hold out against the state. It doesn't mean they won't hurt people.

    And I'd certainly rather live in a world where history was allowed to run its course than where faceless bureaucrats, bourgeois apologists, mindless cops, and politicians were deciding on my behalf what elements of history are better repressed before they occur.

    How romantic!

    But, seriously, clarify for me: at what point should should the acquisition of weapons accompanied by rhetoric about making war and a degree of organisation become of interest to the police? Should police even carry out surveillance of such activities or just leave everyone to get on with it?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18839 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    @rb and b.munro on pg.7.

    ahhh... penny drops. as you say, once the bulk poisoning incident is established as an employment dispute it makes sense to hand it over.

    was someone actually charged with "terrorism" for that kind of intent you wonder about the watering down of the seriousness of the crime though.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2026 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    The Dom Post's lead story, apparently based on police evidence provided to the defence, says Iti and his mates were working off the IRA Green Book manual.

    The source describes the group as "comical" and "amateurish". On the other hand ...

    Iti is alleged to have purchased shotgun ammunition from an Auckland gun shop and tried to obtain grenade launchers.

    It is not clear from the documents whether he succeeded.

    But a document does suggest the arms dealer was willing to obtain grenade launchers.

    No mention of targets is made in the documents, but it is believed the only explosives to which the group had access were Molotov cocktails.

    It would seem that if a "target" is cited by police, it'll be in Auckland on Friday, and it won't be Clark.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18839 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    C'mon, even neo-Nazis aren't stupid enough to have on their website a bunch of photos of them touting their weapons about.

    afaik you can practice gun-handling at a legal shooting range.

    no need to cart them about in public.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2026 posts Report Reply

  • Deborah,

    The Dom Post story also says the group had about 20 members. That's not many to start a revolution with.

    My guess is that they thought that once they started, other people would join them. The classic mistake, imagining that many, many more people share your views, because everyone you talk to has similar views, or at least doesn't contradict your views. Of course, if you never talk to anyone outside of our own set, you never get to realise just how narrow your support may be.

    Manawatu City • Since Nov 2006 • 1307 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby,

    ok, it's post-a-rama from me here.

    but...

    bomber is backing the police, and ross meurant is agin them.

    we are thru the looking glass on this.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2026 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    ok, it's post-a-rama from me here.
    but...

    bomber is backing the police, and ross meurant is agin them.

    we are thru the looking glass on this.

    They might both be right. Bomber knows quite a bit about what was said and done, and has been saying that the police were right to get involved. Meurant says the actual operation was overkill. Mind you, he's guilty of that himself ...

    Mr Meurant, who lives in Prague and described himself as involved in investment analysis of business opportunities in former Eastern Bloc countries, compared the police actions to those of the Bush Administration invading Iraq with supposed evidence of weapons of mass destruction.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18839 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And in the Herald this morning ...

    Those charged after the investigation into paramilitary training camps include a dancer, a labourer, a musician and a community worker.

    No street theatre then?

    The story also says that the police coughed up some additional evidence that prompted the High Court to cancel Lockett's bail. It was suppressed by the judge.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18839 posts Report Reply

  • stephen clover,

    The story also says that the police coughed up some additional evidence that prompted the High Court to cancel Lockett's bail. It was suppressed by the judge.

    Dunno if you saw the TV3 news last night, but they spoke to Lockett's supporters outside the court after he had his bail denied.

    VERY strange lot.

    The "Treaty Crimes Investigation Unit", apparently. With very official looking ID cards and everything.

    wgtn • Since Sep 2007 • 349 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    And The Press ...

    Police raids in Christchurch on Monday were aimed at finding an activist who had attended one of the militant training camps in the Bay of Plenty, a source close to the man says.

    The man attended the camp in the Urewera Ranges after an invitation from Tuhoe activists, but only went once after being "overwhelmed" and "a bit freaked out" by their military-style practices, the source said.

    The man was not in Christchurch when police called and visits to four houses in the city were aimed at finding him, a fellow activist said.

    And freaked out four households full of people, no doubt.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18839 posts Report Reply

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