Getting into the buzz entails recognising that some people are going to be hurt by what they're doing.

Now I'm not a casino fan, the place bores me rigid but isn't this exactly the same as going into a bar and having a drink? At some point you can't be?

I know that "pokie" derives from "poker machine", but it also describes the activity. People poke at pokies. Another word that comes to mind is "disconsolate".

I really don't get pokies. You put your money in, a bunch of lights flash and things go around, and then it tells you?

I think you got a bit carried away here.An abattoir?

That was just the image that came to mind, looking down from the mezzanine at people gambling on a weekday morning.

I rather dislike the patronising look-down-the-nose attitude to the leisure activites of hoi polloi. I have elderly relatives who?

I went to the Sky City Casino once with someone I know. Now, gambling is not something I 'get', at all, for all the reasons Russell outlined. Added to that, I've gone?

I really don't get pokies. You put your money in, a bunch of lights flash and things go around, and then it tells you that you've lost, or won.

And being told they're a winner by a machine that takes their money will probably be the only positive reinforcement that?

The roulette is also programmed to make you lose, without being a computer.

Not in the same way. Roulette is biased against you winning but it does not do any balancing. A win in roulette does not make the chances of a loss in the next round any higher.

I?

I know lots of people who derive innocent pleasure from, say, the occasional ingestion of marijuana. The law takes quite a different view of the two activities.

Wrongly, in my view. Drugs (all of them) should be legal, at least for the user.

The cycleway boondoggle was being sold on?

I think you got a bit carried away here.An abattoir?

Maybe, but it's a hard analogy not to make when struck by the sheer industrial nature of clients/victims poking the pokies en masse. As someone noted about the onetime Nintendoland at Sydney's Darling Harbour, unless you happened to be immersed?

A win in roulette does not make the chances of a loss in the next round any higher.

Have you heard of section spinning?

Roulette was designed by Franciscan monks, possibly as an elegant form of meditation. Fate and chance dance together, and at the end of the day the?

This leads to the odd sight of middle-aged ladies physically leashed?

When you buy a book, you're also buying the right to read it aloud, have it read to you by anyone, read it to your children on long car trips, record yourself reading it and send that to your girlfriend etc. This is the same?

That was just the image that came to mind, looking down from the mezzanine at people gambling on a weekday morning.

That was the image conjured up for me too, when I peeked through the black curtains whilst at the SPADA conference last year. Something akin to a joyless factory?

This place seems to me not so far off the opium dens that used to cluster just up the road from the casino.

Hobson St was so much more interesting back in the 50's & 60's
Bring back the opium dens, but only?

It is not true, either, that the casino won't let you empty your bladder, in case the spell breaks.

The last time I was there (for anthropological purposes, natch), I noticed that there were tags that you could attach to your pokie machine while you went away for a quick?

All I can deduce is that the?

This leads to the odd sight of middle-aged ladies physically leashed to their machines.

Are the cords still red? The image gets odder still if it makes you think of dialysis.

In our house the Sky tower has always been referred to as "The Skypodermic". You will never look at it the same way again. ;)

Thought the same thing many many times, although I've never dreamt up a catchy nickname like that...

I've gambled at Sky City just the once.?

As for pokies, they involve too much work for the novice player--all those button and options, which conceal the possibility that all your coins are going down a one-way shute.

I think the operative word should be probability.

We decided that the pokies were boring, blackjack and poker were too high-stakes ($5!) so we stuck to the $2 roulette?

I can't really say that I know this, but I have heard so and I would not expect a casino to do things any other way unless explicitly legislated for.

Absolutely. Experienced players will go to a machine after someone else has lost their money into it. You never go?

I'm amazed that there are entire cities built around the concept.

Up until September last year, we had a global economy built around this concept.

And the only time I tried to go to Sky City they wouldn't let me in because my jeans were frayed.

I wonder WHY?

Not in the same way. Roulette is biased against you winning but it does not do any balancing. A win in roulette does not make the chances of a loss in the next round any higher.

I am under the impression that this is what pokies do. I can't really?

Sky taketh away, but they also giveth. Check out their political donations in 2005.

Didn't they also donate a fair chunk of change to the St Patrick's Cathedral restoration fund and Downtown City Mission's annual Christmas lunch. Can't be too piously high minded about it, but the irony tickles me?

I don't think that the pokies, and the rest of Sky City would be much of a moral?

No they don't, at least they're not supposed to.

If they did, people would just move to another machine after a win, no?

I am vaguely weirded out by the tone of this discussion. But I'm not quite sure why.

I think for me it's the underlying tone of disgust at people doing this to themselves, which sits in marked contrast to the "legalise drugs and stop hating on the poor stoners" subcontext.?

I hate it and I hate its temples of misery where no one actually appears to be having any fun. Being around that many people and noticing the lack of a conversational hum is positively unnnerving.

?

I think for me it's the underlying tone of disgust at people doing this to themselves, which sits in marked contrast to the "legalise drugs and stop hating on the poor stoners" subcontext.

The link to drugs is fairly explicit in my original post. Like the strip bar owners and?

I visit the casino almost every weekend, sometimes twice a weekend, to play texas holdem poker (tucked off upstairs and to a side) and do enjoy it. It is fun for us particpants?

Sam F has probably put it together quite well there – a similar?

It's not necessarily that inconsistent to find gambling distasteful and oppose overly punitive drug legislation.

It's not inconsistent at all.

Plenty of people who support the decriminalisation of marijuana would never touch the stuff.

Plenty of people who opposed a law change to criminalise a light smack, would never smack?

The cycleway boondoggle was being sold on a basis of the backpacker tourists it would attract.

I dunno, another form of tourism like freedom camping where the tourist spends an absolute minimum during their stay in N.Z. sounds like a fantastic idea.

As for the pokies. At my local Friday?

anyone ever been to a sports event when say the All Blacks aren't winning....

lack of smiles = gambling bad????

anyone ever been to a sports event when say the All Blacks aren't winning....

But that's bad.

lack of smiles = gambling bad????

anyone ever been to a sports event when say the All Blacks aren't winning....

I've seen my teams lose plenty — and of course Wellington readers will know the feeling better than me ;-)

But it's not really anything like the casino.

but it must surely strike you that a lot of people at the casino don't look like they're having fun?

anyone ever been to a sports event when say the All Blacks aren't winning....

Or, indeed, watched an audience during a performance of, say, an Ibsen tragedy? Or during the?

I can think of another popular activity in which, if you didn't know better, just by looking at the participants you could be excused to think they're actually in pain.

One could even conceive (this isn't actually an industry known for its honesty) of the casino having?

And my very limited experience has been that Auckland's casino is mindnumbingly depressing, while Sydney's was good-times-fun. That was probably down to my mental state in Sydney though. And that great faux-rock waterfall in the bar. Faux rock makes everything better.

What it needs is spa pools and a cycleway.?

I visit the casino almost every weekend, sometimes twice a weekend, to play texas holdem poker (tucked off upstairs and to a side) and do enjoy it. It is fun for us particpants when getting the rush from winning.

I think like a lot of activities, gambling has a scale.?

But I found it interesting enough to talk about afterwards. I've certainly no wish to intrude on your fun Angus, but it must surely strike you that a lot of people at the casino don't look like they're having fun?

Imagine you purchase some E for 10c, but knowing only?

And my very limited experience has been that Auckland's casino is mindnumbingly depressing, while Sydney's was good-times-fun.

I've been known to enjoy to odd game of poker and toss a few coins (very few mind) into a slot machine, and quite enjoy watching others play blackjack, but rarely in Auckland's?

And my very limited experience has been that Auckland's casino is mindnumbingly depressing, while Sydney's was good-times-fun. That was probably down to my mental state in Sydney though. And that great faux-rock waterfall in the bar. Faux rock makes everything better.

Hmmm, as a resident of Sydney and a very?

all the people you were looking at weren't winning.

It seemed well beyond "not winning" Angus, they had an air of quiet desperation. In those numbers it hung in the air like a toxic cloud. I'm talking about the main barn, not the smaller tables.

What it needs is spa pools and a cycleway.

Actually, a velodrome track around the outside of the gaming floor would make it much more interesting.

Melbourne's has columns that spew fire balls in some oddly choreographed pattern each and every hour... that trumps a faux rock waterfall to my?

Actually, a velodrome track around the outside of the gaming floor would make it much more interesting.

Yes! A Madison! With fireballs!

And my very limited experience has been that Auckland's casino is mindnumbingly depressing, while Sydney's was good-times-fun.

True dat. There used to be a bar with band/dance floor in Auckland casino proper, which was good. But they removed that and stuck in another 40 pokies. Killed off any redeeming atmosphere?

Melbourne's has columns that spew fire balls in some oddly choreographed pattern each and every hour...

I was under the impression that they flared whenever someone struck a jackpot or something.

I play low stakes texas holdem almost exclusively, where the chances of winning are much higher and the payouts much lower, and because of the nature of the game try to show no emotion at all. But it is enjoyable.

Honestly, I'm not doubting you. That does sound fun.

Yes! A Madison! With fireballs!

You could even bet on the Madison — although I assume you'd run into the usual problem of having no effing idea who was winning the thing.

A Madison! With fireballs!

In Japan, keirin racing is the main betting sport, and the national organisation is known to throw a few bob at anywhere else that takes it up (there is much speculation that this is why Keirin was introduced to the olympics recently). I'm sure Sky City?

The gouts of fire were particularly impressive given the presumed cost of all the gas they'd need to fuel them, and the contrast of flying back into a Wellington with all the lights switched off. Conspicuous power consumption.

Maybe there's a subterranean battery pig farm below the casino.

Pokies doesn't have either of those things, and as Russell describes them, they're basically anti-social money drains. I'd support changes to how we approach pokies as a society, while leaving other forms of gambling relatively untouched.

We had an extensive discussion here a while ago about what-to-do-about-pokies. It got quite?

You could even bet on the Madison — although I assume you'd run into the usual problem of having no effing idea who was winning the thing.

Well, since the Madison was originally created as a way of giving gamblers at Madison Square Gardens something to bet on, while circumventing?

Spot the difference.

How will they ever sell audiobooks if Stephen Hawking is prepared to read them all aloud for free?

I once had a computer read a postcolonial study of medieval England to me. Hearing about the writings of Geoffrey of Monmouth through the voice of Alex was probably one?

How will they ever sell audiobooks if Stephen Hawking is prepared to read them all aloud for free?

LOL!

Yes, and I know lots of people who derive innocent pleasure from, say, the occasional ingestion of marijuana. The law takes quite a different view of the two activities.

So true...

The operation ended yesterday, and Mr Glue said he was unable to reveal how much it cost, but the?

MDMA-ingesting cyclists weaving through flaming hoops around a Sky City velodrome in a Madison that offers infinite betting possibilities

To the great sounds of Kiwi Music! You forgot the Kiwi Music!

just below the orbiting restruant, so that diners may place bets whilst enjoying a pleasent meal.
....

You forgot the Kiwi Music!

I don't know
why does lunch
do this to me?

Gaiman follows up on the Kindle argument. Includes a link to Will Wheaton reading a passage from one of his books, and and then having the Kindle read it. Spot the difference.

And John Scalzi also smells something kind of yeasty about the idea that the Kindle's T2S function was?

I guess they might argue that the technology will reach a point where Kindle is indistinguishable from a human voice, and they're getting in before that happens.

And one day, the Kindles may rise up and kill us all, so we might as well ban them before that happens. And?

And one day, the Kindles may rise up and kill us all, so we might as well ban them before that happens.

I, for one, welcome our new Kindle overlords.

First, on a personal, your mileage may vary note, it seems to me that people generally buy the audio version of a book or the text version, rather than both

That's an interesting point. I am thinking about setting up a voice recognition service that writes out audio books into?

I think the sevens give us glimpse of the sort of party town we could become...

Oh sweet Jesus, no!

I've been into the Sky City building a few times, and the only time I've ever spent any money there I dropped about $100 in just over an hour. Mind?

We had an extensive discussion here a while ago about what-to-do-about-pokies. It got quite heated, and some people thought my distaste for them (or support of community efforts to keep them out) was just me denying people innocent fun.

I remember it well. It was my first serious departure in?

The british?

A kind of ebook future may be coming – but it sure as shit isnt the Kindle/2 or any other 'digital reader' out?

Why?

Great sleeping aid, but interesting nonetheless.

They'd be sure to cap it or put a silly little 50c levy.

I don't know
why does lunch
do this to me?

Poor kitchen hygeine?

How will they ever sell audiobooks if Stephen Hawking is prepared to read them all aloud for free?

Odiogo can do this (free) for you....Mangles tech content particularly well.

Heading in the other direction, turning audio content into text (ie a transcript) should improve efficency when searching audio content, enabling potential?

As for casinos, I visit with my mum. It's once a year we can do something together that?

Apologies Mark if I'm being obtuse: I've been having 'differences of opinion' with several people of several b. different sites, but my loathing of the Kindle-attempted audio coup has been quite consistent. I just dont see any point in relitigating it, as it were-

Islander I'm very interested too. Happy?

but I do think that pokies are, pure and simple, designed to be a way to harvest as much money from the addicted over as long a term as possible.

There's something more sinister about being harvested by a machine than by another human. Whether or not the outcome is?

I mean, it does, right? Otherwise, why would anyone go?

Nothing against a harmless flutter, other that gambling addicts all start the same way....but it's the same for addicts of all kinds.

Thankfully gambling isn't as deregulated in?

Mark H -Bookman Beattie for a kickoff-

None the wiser, I'm afraid. I can't see any comments on his blog or a link to a forum. Got a URL?

Islander, grinning, that Amazon took the sesible withdrawal route-

Well, I'm sorry but I think this is one time the evil corporate should have grown a pair (and a spine) and told the Author's Guild to fuck off and come back when it had something approximately in the vicinity of?

Well, I'm sorry but I think this is one time the evil corporate should have grown a pair (and a spine) and told the Author's Guild to fuck off and come back when it had something approximately in the vicinity of a reality based argument.

Well, yes. At least authors?

(Nod to Robin Sheat)

Breaking T2S will reap authors exactly zero extra dollars. Visually-impaired readers can presumably go hang.

That's what I don't get. People who *might* have bought an ebook version to be read on the Kindle *specifically* because there is no proper audiobook version, are now less likely to buy it because?

It's mainly applied to academic textbooks, and the challenge?

If Amazon are making money out of a service specifically relating to an author's work the author should be compensated.

If, however, you are talking about preventing distributing software because it happens to be able to read text on?

As Gaiman notes, there is no foreseeable future in which machine text-to-speech will approximate a human audiobook reader. Breaking T2S will reap authors exactly zero extra dollars. Visually-impaired readers can presumably go hang.

I'd also suggest public libraries are going to have a tough enough time over the next couple?

Whether we like it or not, it just so happens that the (variable) reward patterns of gambling are perfect for creating addiction.

Much like fishing? I knew there was a gambler in me somewhere. Being a catch-and-release type, the house always wins.

Best moment, Jon's reaction when the guy mentioned the price. You thought it might be $100, $150 or something. No, $359 US!

It was just the worst marketing ever?

I think the only way I'd be sure that each spin is an independent event is If I looked at the code or that they are required to by law. I'm assuming they get audited, I remember reading a piece comparing the controls on the development of slot machines compared?

Orwell would love this thread. All the snobby pigs looking down their noses at the dumb sheep. Poor fools sitting there so grimly when they could be out on their bikes, compulsory helmets on of course and tofu sammies in their backpacks.

Oh, whatever: people can do what they like.?

Orwell would love this thread. All the snobby pigs looking down their noses at the dumb sheep. Poor fools sitting there so grimly when they could be out on their bikes, compulsory helmets on of course and tofu sammies in their backpacks.

I love the condescending pieties of the bourgoisie.

?

Yes, and besides, the odds aren't truly 50:50, nor are they required to be. They're stacked in the house's favor, and that's just the way it is.

I recall a TV show a number of years ago looking at casinos. It looked at the odds of various games, and various?

A TTS function of the Kindle2 – supposing I had sold e-rights- wouldnt've garnered publisher or self anything either. And, as someone who is vbisually impaired, I find your comment, Russell, just a tad offensive.

I'm sorry, I meant no offence and my comments really weren't directed at you.

I?

I still think his basic contention — that the TTS function on a Kindle is comparable to an audiobook, and thus will deprive authors of audiobook royalties — is utterly wrong.?

So the reading's legitimacy depends on the situation either way. I can imagine a public performance or a recording of a copyright?

I liked Gaiman's comment that, when a machine can do read aloud better than a human, we will have other things to worry about.

Oh good one, Lyndon. Pit me against Neil bloody Gaiman then ...

The issue has been bouncing around in my head since my last comment. I?

Will any copyright holder notice – or care -about what we're doing? Uh, yes. And it'll be interesting to find out the next moves-

Well, Kerry, if I was an American author I'd certainly be having a serious head-scratching session about the quality and credibility of any advocacy the Author's?

Well, Kerry,

Forgive him ...

the latter is percieved as a battle really well worth fighting if only because we suspect there is much more in the pipeline.

Islander, that's fine. If you want to shake more money out of Amazon and Google be my guest.

BUT, don't let your representatives take this down yet?

Forgive him ...

For overusing the "W" word? – never!

I am all in favour of further developements that help visually-impaired people (well, I would be, wouldnt I?!) I just dont think – given other technology currently available, that the Kindle2 TTS function would help more than a very tiny -&wealthy- percentage of us.

However, successfully blocking the Kindle2 TTS will?

Mark, I think you under-estimate the ingenuity of visually-impaired people – and the portability of laptops.

I think you overestimate the number of blind people with laptops.

I liked Gaiman's comment that, when a machine can do read aloud better than a human, we will have other things to worry about.

That's hardly setting the bar very high...in some cases. I happend to listen to part of Cory Doctorow's latest audio book yesterday and had to wonder?

Which is why I say the TTS feature on?

(I heed, Russell, but I rather think he knows very well what he is doing-)

No I don't, Islander. And to be honest, I don't really want to know. If I've horrendously insulted, offended or annoyed you, I'm sorry and will happily withdraw from the subject. I just hope the?

Is it?
– lack of control over the author's ideas?
– lack of consideration/royalties for the additional format?
– automated text-to-speech readers seem to be built on the chasis of a 2-stroke lawnmower with a broken throttle?
– format shifting becomes?

And you're not a writer – so, your uninformed and uninvolved comments about Blount et al?

And for once, I've got to agree with Don.

Eh, steady on Craig. It has happened before.

Actually, I think Islander and I agreed. She wasn't demanding DRM like controls on text readers. We both were pointing out that if Amazon are going to make a killing out of folks?

Is it?
– lack of control over the author's ideas?
– lack of consideration/royalties for the additional format?
– automated text-to-speech readers seem to be built on the chasis of a 2-stroke lawnmower with a broken throttle?
– format shifting becomes easy, royalty-free & awful with kindle-like devices.

From the article?

I get offended when some cretin thinks it funny to spell it otherwise

Could be an honest mistake. I'm curious. Did T2S get Keri or Kerry closer to your actual name?

and I get offended when some cretin thinks it funny to spell it otherwise. You have insulted me. You have annoyed me.

I don't for a moment think it was actually deliberate. I could probably have helped by drawing attention to it in a less cryptic manner.

And you're not?

Not that I know what's going on.

I don't for a moment think it was actually deliberate

Actually, for what it's worth, I agree. If Craig wanted to insult anyone I doubt he'd be so subtle about it. Not that there's anything wrong with that..

xkcd on the kindle

xkcd on the kindle

That's pretty much how I've been using my PDA for the last 8 years. GPRS is totally useless until you find yourself abroad. Then it's really good for basic net functions, like reading e-mail, browsing wikis, , banking, limited web browsing, all sitting in a bar?

Right on cue: a fascinating story about a fansite creating derivative works from stories in the public domain in NZ, but not in the US. Quite a mess, and it doesn't seem like anyone is well-served by it.

From the CW article Russell linked: __But under New Zealand copyright law,?

However, I am?

SkyCity bets on rebrand to pull in the punters

Non-gambling revenues are the only growth area. Bring on the dancing girls. Literally.

Interesting, Tim, thanks. I hadn't realised US copyright law was quite so fucking complicated. I knew it was bad, but that's ugly beyond my worst imaginings.

It comes as no surprise that the prime offender, the Sonny Bono Act, is nicknamed the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act' in the States.?

Nothing captures the idea of barbarity better than low production values and extremely bad acting.

I have a special place in my heart for Red Sonja, which I saw when my brother rented it once when I was about 13 or so.

I suspect this would be totally ruined by?

you shouldn't fight the free distribution of your work but use it to promote yourself and then come up with other ideas to bring in money.

1 – why don't you get out on?

the afternoon's show.

:)
got to go do a real job soon so won't be able to participate,

Spoilsport!

Well no one owes me a living so its only fair I get down to the local fast food joint and put in my hours like everyone else.

Oh boy. Think I'll dial my chair back and settle in here for the afternoon's show.

Twenty bucks says this thread can overtake the other one.

(I will not be actively participating, because I'll be working on the overhaul of the website that subsidises my 'writing'.)