Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The Demon E-Word

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  • Rich of Observationz,

    Kevin is a real academic - either that or somebody is impersonating some poor Auckland researcher.

    His official Auckland uni page has his signature English style though. I guess he must be seriously clever to progress so far with grammar and spelling like that.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I'm sure an elite university would have no trouble coming to an arrangement with a similar overseas institution.

    Only for some subjects. Anything with looking at NZ wouldn't fly - that's a fair bit of history, culture, film, literature, politics, Maori language & culture. Sciences largely would be OK, as would commerce. Various 'professional' courses taught at universities would struggle because of the country-specific nature. Medicine and Dentistry would mostly be OK, but law would struggle. Education and teacher training wouldn't work.

    Nevermind the cost of sending tens of thousands of pieces of work overseas for marking. That used to be the system a hundred years ago, when all work from the University of New Zealand was sent to England for marking. Of course, it only involved a couple of hundred students then. I wonder if any top university does it comprehensively in the modern age?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    Well there are a few dyslexic types around on PAS (and all over the place doing kick arse stuff in various fields) it can be confusing in this kind of setting until you get a sense of the person.
    Seriously Kevin, just breathe and post then I will do my best to follow what you are saying. So far all I am getting is ranting.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    Breaking down the fire(walls) that separate us in the hope we may progress this country.

    Ok, just for you guys I’ll slow down my typing a bit and stick my pinky out when supping on the tea. Now if any of you would like to give me a rational argument against what I have been saying. Or point out the irrationality of my arguments then I would be very interest. I am genuinely interested in your opinions - that’s why I am here.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    "Education and teacher training wouldn't work."

    Why not?

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Max Call,

    "Education and teacher training wouldn't work."
    Why not?


    because a large part of our assessment is actually based on our teaching practise (not written assignments)

    Fruit Bowl of New Zealand… • Since Jun 2007 • 153 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    The problem is, Kevin, you seem to be letting blind ideology get in the way of reasoned debate.

    If you are truly concerned about the individual and independence of thought I would expect you would be very supportive of the changes to the curriculum which seem to emphasise that approach.

    However, your "get out of the way - but give us the money" argument seems a simplistic regurgitation of the cry from private schools to live off state subsidies without any democratic oversight.

    (PS Should I concerned that we have an education system where a sociologist is able to give us more clarity and reason than a scientist?)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • David Hamilton,

    "learn how to learn", "dont remeber, just derive", "problem solving skills are better than memory", "method is more important than fact", "active learning" - all this BS I can remember was being held up as the way forward when I was at school in the early 70s. How long do governments need to stick to failed initives before they given it up.

    How about this one - to echo what Tom B has been saying, all of those are absolutely key in my industry (Software Development), which is skilled and highly(ish) paid work. I would take a graduate with all those skills over one with the ability to code from memory on a bit of paper. It might be a bit of a special case, but I have a great job precisely because of the emphasis on those skills.

    Hamiltron • Since Nov 2006 • 111 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    "Education and teacher training wouldn't work."

    Why not?

    And because teacher graduates here have to teach the NZ curriculum, not the Australian or English or American etc curriculum. The only experts in the NZ curriculum will be in NZ.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6243 posts Report Reply

  • Idiot Savant,

    No terrorism charges - they apparently couldn't be supported by the evidence.

    I want heads on pikes.

    Meanwhile, given that some of those bailed had no admissible evidence on the arms act charges, I wonder if those charges will be withdrawn.

    Palmerston North • Since Nov 2006 • 1717 posts Report Reply

  • 81stcolumn,

    Kevin -

    How much time do you actually spend teaching ?

    Nawthshaw • Since Nov 2006 • 790 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    No Don, your ideology means that you would naturally think a sociologist gives more clarity and reason than a scientist.

    Take the example of university science education. It has been cut to the bone because it is expensive compared to humanities. We have gone from 4 hrs lectures and 6 hrs labs per week down to 3 hrs lectures and one 3 hr lab per fortnight if you are lucky, and yet the government keeps saying it wants a knowledge economy and scientists and engineers to drive it.

    Thanks Max, I am overjoyed to hear that practical work still is highly regarded in teacher training.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    I think if I might summarise your argument, Kevin, it is that NZ education at all levels is insufficiently rigorous and we aren't producing enough elite graduates in scientific subjects.

    This may be the case, but I don't believe it's a major problem for our economy or society.

    It *is* a problem that many kids aren't getting much out of their education and are growing up disillusioned and unable to live fulfilling lives. These people aren't PhD candidates, but those for whom a better education would make the difference between the dole and a decent job. That's what the system should be concentrating on; In some areas, like the introduction of standard-based exams, it is. But there's a long way to go, especially in the structure, funding and attitude of schools.

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    David, thats a good point. I'm not totally opposed to those ideas just to the emphasis placed on them and the idea that they are right for everyone. And I bet you have a bloody good memory too - comeon truth time...

    Of course previously thay were just as cherished its just they weren't written down in some bureaucratic vision statement.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • kmont,

    Take the example of university science education. It has been cut to the bone because it is expensive compared to humanities. We have gone from 4 hrs lectures and 6 hrs labs per week down to 3 hrs lectures and one 3 hr lab per fortnight if you are lucky, and yet the government keeps saying it wants a knowledge economy and scientists and engineers to drive it.

    From what I hear science does need more funding.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 485 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Take the example of university science education. It has been cut to the bone

    Right, so you need more money? Personally I am happy for you to have it, in fact, I may even argue that it would be better for you to have it to spend on science education than giving me the money as a tax cut (unfashionable though that position may be).

    But I'll be damned if I let you have the money without some oversight and guarantee that you are teaching, you know, science.

    I still fail to see where your opposition to the new curriculum comes from. One thing I am certain of is that there are bound to be problems with any curriculum, it's just that you and Mr. Minto have yet to enlighten us in any coherent way.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1645 posts Report Reply

  • Jeremy Andrew,

    These people aren't PhD candidates, but those for whom a better education would make the difference between the dole and a decent job.

    These days, with high employment and all, its not so much the difference between the dole & a decent job - its the difference between a crap job and a decent job.

    In the main centres particularly, pretty much everyone who can work and wants to work has a job. But there's a fair few of those jobs that I'm pretty sure most of the PA parents here don't envisage their kids growing up to perform. The fun part is that, by and large, even if the lowest educated person in NZ is equivalent to the international average, those crap jobs will still exist and need doing by someone. Either the minimum requirements for a cleaning job will increase, or we'll import.

    Hamiltron - City of the F… • Since Nov 2006 • 900 posts Report Reply

  • richard,

    This debate is interesting to me -- my experience is that "elite" American universities rely *less* on outside assessments of teaching and marking standards than New Zealand universities already do.

    For instance, a New Zealand PhD will typically be read by two examiners -- one from another New Zealand university, and a second from overseas. Conversely, an American PhD will sometimes be sent to an external reader, but the student is effectively examined by a committee of academics from his/her own institution -- and usually some or all of these people will have helped supervise the student's research.

    Likewise, as a faculty member in charge of an undergraduate course I have a great deal of autonomy in setting grades and curricula. You might occasionally ask a colleague to look over a final exam, but there is never (in my experience) any cross-marking, or outside assessment of the grades you have awarded.

    My guess is that many top North American places would take the attitude that they have no equals, and that they know quality when they see it :-)

    And from my perspective, the idea of having a bundle of exams and assignments from (say) Auckland land on my desk for the purposes of checking whether that B+ should really have been an A- is profoundly abhorrent: there are many, many more things I would prefer to be doing with my time. (Posting to Public Address, for instance.)

    Not looking for New Engla… • Since Nov 2006 • 268 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    Rich, that is a major problem for our economy if you want your kids to stay here and for us to be anything more than a retirement home for PJ and his Hollywood mates. The problem is that some around here seem to be so attached to their ideology that they are happy with that scenario.

    Yes, there are a small number left behind, which the politicians and the mainstream mdia focus on relentlessly, to no avail because the problem has got worse over the same 50 years that we have poured more into them.

    So excuse my cynicism but I consider the pontification of politicians in the MSM about the underclass to be just nouveau-baby kissing for all the good that it does.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Tom Beard,

    that is a major problem for our economy if you want your kids to stay here and for us to be anything more than a retirement home for PJ and his Hollywood mates

    What I don't see is how not
    "learning how to learn", but learning passively and prioritising memory and fact over problem-solving and method, is going to produce the deep, innovative thinkers we'll need in order to remedy it. Surely, to be leaders rather than followers in a competitive global economy, it's better to find new facts and create new memories rather than repeat old ones?

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1040 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz,

    Jeremy, there are undoubtedly a few jobs like cleaning, flipping burgers, etc. that will always be at the bottom of the skill/pay scale.

    But as economies upskill, those jobs reduce in number (and are often done as interim work by people on their way to better things - a friend of mine cleans offices while she does her masters). A lot of other low paid jobs just go. We stop competing in low-wage, labour-intensive work and using people for jobs that can be done by machines.

    (Example: most NZ roadworks will have someone at each end controlling traffic. Elsewhere, they set up a portable traffic light to do the job. That isn't destroying jobs, it's using a machine to do crappy, boring work which doesn't justify a person).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 5550 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    Richard, in NZ we already have the system where a random selection of the papers goes to another university to get remarked. We have reasonable quality control and I was just saying the quality control would have to be very carefully audited if we brought in a system of fully funding our brightest student. As you will have detected, the idea of investing in NZs future by ensuring our brightest graduates aren't mortgaged up to the eyeballs is abhorrent to the very people who railed against the American type user pays system when it is brought in. When they realised that this system could be harvested full out for wealth redistribution I don't quite know but perhaps one of them can enlighten us.

    You guys in the US have a system that pumps out knowledge and drives your economy which many here do not undestand. Perhaps you could share your thoughts about how a small country (4 million people) which wants all the first world goodies like health, education and social welfare, should develop its education system and target its education dollars.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Re the memory vs "learning how to learn": false dichotomy. Rote learning is a valuable and useful skill which is essential to higher learning. Not only are your times tables useful but the processes you experienced in learning them are useful too.

    Learn how to learn BY learning.

    (I'm pretty sure Jackie B or one of the other PA System readers made this point in an earlier thread.)

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 3122 posts Report Reply

  • Margaret B,

    On the issue of the "long tail" (ie the kids left behind) I'm pretty sure I saw something about some research released recently showing NZ was actually improving in this area. I shall see what I can find.

    I'd also like to point out that education policy (curriculum, whatever) is not that only factor that impacts on the long tail. For example, transience is a major problem - children who fall behind at school have often been to a large number of schools by the time they hit secondary, as a result of moves of house. These moves can be a result of financial situations that require moving frequently, or symptomatic of an abusive household (some families will move their child to another school if teachers raise concerns about abuse), or any number of other things. Each time the child has to start again to a certain extent and it is difficult to pick up learning difficulties and address them when a child isn't around for very long.

    So we need to factor in housing policy, social welfare policy, justice policy, and more, rather than just looking to our education system to resolve these problems on its own.

    Since Oct 2007 • 59 posts Report Reply

  • KevinHicks,

    Tom, we're talking kids education here! Teach them something interesting and they'll lap it up and think as well. My daughter laughs openly at the BS parts of the syllabus and I have always encouraged her to try hard in everything. The kids see through the BS for themselves and are not interested in MOE vision statements.

    Take history for example – it is the worst taught subject at school and is arguably one of the most important. Most of the stuff I’ve seen my kids bring home I would have said amounted to a month’s work of their entire school lives in “selected topics in social justice”. And I see no mention of redressing the balance regarding the down-playing of Asian history in the new curriculum.

    Auckland • Since Sep 2007 • 67 posts Report Reply

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