Hard News by Russell Brown

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Hard News: The file-sharing bill

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  • 3410,

    Saving face.

    Join the club :)

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • chris mcnair, in reply to Russell Brown,

    Actually, another one occurs. Lots of people now live in big Auckland CBD apartment buildings which provide internet service at a flat fee along with power, etc. I presume they’re using NAT. In theory the landlord companies are ISPs. In practice … good luck with that.

    Its things like this that haven't been adequately thought through that really worry me about this bill. It was rushed through under urgency and it seems far from finished, vague and non specific in some areas and simply flawed in others.

    It also won't catch the high download pirates because they will generally be using seedboxes and/or VPNs or TOR. The people that will end up getting the fines will be the occasional torrenters who are really not the main issue.

    auckland • Since Jul 2008 • 39 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to chris mcnair,

    that haven't been adequately thought through

    They were, by those who opposed the bill. The muppets you saw 'debating' it, not so much.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    But now the government can hand-on-heart say to the negotiators of TPPA and other "free" trade agreements that they've ticked off most of what the American media/entertainment lobby has asked for. Why, lil McCully or Keyboy may even get a pat on the head for it. Approval from daddy: priceless.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Russell Brown,

    I am not of conspiratorial mind, but I do think that has been an actual strategy this week

    Oh, look - a quiet release of SCF documents:

    With Parliament under urgency to pass both the guilt by accusation copyright law and the Canterbury Enabling Act 2.0, today is a good day to dump bad news. And the government has, releasing hundreds of documents related to South Canterbury Finance. The key finding so far? The company violated the terms of its guarantee within the first two months

    ...

    So, SCF was guaranteed, then asset-stripped under our noses. And yet the National government repeatedly renewed the guarantee.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • Sarah Wedde,

    I genuinely can't tell whether that NZFACT press release is satire or not.

    Lower Hutt • Since Nov 2006 • 66 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    So an ISP could, I think, comply by responding that an IP was in use by any of a whole tranche of users.

    No, the IP-address you may have locally, behind your NAT (typically 192.168.0.1-255) is not the IP-address exposed to the internet (hence NAT – network address translation). That would be your NAT external address which is dynamically allocated to you by your ISP (unless you have a fixed address). So it’s not really a problem for an ISP to match an IP-address to a customer at a given date and time. They already do this if ordered by police or internal affairs, but in a manual and labour-intensive way.

    If you are wondering what your external IP-address is, just click on What’s my IP Address.

    Lower Grey Lynn • Since Jul 2009 • 782 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    That's true most of the time, except that ISPs are now starting to use NAT at the ISP/Internet gateway level to reduce their usage of IP addresses.

    None I know of in NZ do this (apparently Vodafone and Telstra in AU). It's a bit of a downgrade for a few reasons, but maybe not being able to be traced will make it more popular..

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4209 posts Report Reply

  • chris,

    Sorry I don’t know much about electronics: Does the Beehive have a network or are all the users on individual ISPs?

    If I wanted to impact say Starbucks or McDonalds business fortunes, could I as a patron have them brought before the committee by exploiting their connections to pirate stuff?

    Won’t the practice simply be shifted to locales where it’s more difficult to identify the erm perpetrators?

    中国 • Since Jan 2010 • 888 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Sarah Wedde,

    that NZFACT press release

    sadly genuine, and their happiness is all you need to notice

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to chris,

    If I wanted to impact say Starbucks or McDonalds business fortunes, could I or a group have them brought before the committee by exploiting their connections to pirate stuff?

    They'll do it to each other, in some sectors

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 15715 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Matthew Poole,

    Riiiight, because that's worked so well in the UK, yeah?

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1701 posts Report Reply

  • Matthew Poole, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    Rich is talking about "carrier-grade NAT", which is where the ISP itself presents a handful of IP addresses to the rest of the tubes and carries out NAT between its customers and those IP addresses.

    There are many technical fuckups in this law that could've been avoided if *gasp* proper consultation had occurred. But it didn't, so they weren't, and now it'll fall on the hapless ISPs to deal with it.
    Or people like me, since I'm in the process of convincing my theatre group to offer hotspot services to customers. I'm comfortable that I can secure the hotspot against unauthorised users, but there's nothing to stop authorised users from abusing the service if they're really inclined.

    The pit from whence crawl… • Since Mar 2007 • 3731 posts Report Reply

  • Martin Lindberg, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    ..now starting to use NAT at the ISP/Internet gateway level

    Interesting. But that’s unlikely to “help”. With this law all ISPs must have the ability to match the public IP-address with a customer (not necessarily the same as a user). So even if using NAT at a gateway level, the ISP must keep track of it.

    There are IPSs overseas who will not log IP-addresses allocated to customers (e.g. one of my old ISPs: Bahnhof). If they don’t log they can’t know which customer had a particular IP-address at any given time.

    Maybe a business opportunity for NZ – probably needs to be hosted offshore though ;-) .

    Lower Grey Lynn • Since Jul 2009 • 782 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to Sacha,

    中国 • Since Jan 2010 • 888 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    But, look over there..

    I am not of conspiratorial mind, but I do think that has been an actual strategy this week.

    The worst thing is that a conspiracy is unnecessary. I'm waiting for Goff's Labour to create some utterly pointless distraction through some MP throwing another tantrum even without someone pointing out that they never opposed it anyway. A millipede with OCD and a gatling gun couldn't shoot itself in the foot more often.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 955 posts Report Reply

  • Percy Flage, in reply to Rich of Observationz,

    I think the Letters Patent and, especially, chapter one of the Cabinet Manual might be a good guide to the limit of the Governor-General's discretion over making Orders in Council.

    Please forgive a newbie asking a dullard question, and I don't want to sound like someone who can't programme the VCR or anything. It's just that thanks to the good services of the stupendously rewarding Aro Video and lovely Wellington Public Library, I've never had occasion to share a file. What is in those files that people are people sharing? Is it, I don't know, copies of bloody 'Sucker Punch' or Lady Gaga songs (or whomever, Katy Perry, I don't know) or what?

    Since Apr 2011 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Rich of Observationz, in reply to Martin Lindberg,

    Yeah, but it says IP address specifically, not IP address and port.

    So if you ask an ISP using NAT for details on an IP, they'll give you a number of users that *could* be using that IP at a given time.

    It's a flaw with legislation that gets hooked up in technical details. Saying that anyone providing a communication service has to be able to provide details of the customer behind any interaction would be "better". (as in more robust, not a good idea).

    Back in Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 4209 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite, in reply to Hilary Stace,

    person with Aspergers unjustly charged and imprisoned.

    Yes, and get this: The officer who conducted the interview with Mr Farmer was “moved sideways” within the force. Could that bus ticket be any wetter? I can't wait to hear Greg O'Connor's comment.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 955 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Graeme Edgeler,

    The best I can point to is Sir Cyril Newall (discussed at page 718 of Philip Joseph’s seminal text Constitutional and Administrative Law in New Zealand (2nd ed.)

    Wow. Brave man, Thanks Graeme

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1701 posts Report Reply

  • nzlemming, in reply to Sacha,

    Oh, look - a quiet release of SCF documents

    Jee-zuz fuck!!!

    Just when I thought it wasn't possible to despise the Government more.

    Waikanae • Since Nov 2006 • 1701 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Is it, I don't know, copies of bloody 'Sucker Punch' or Lady Gaga songs (or whomever, Katy Perry, I don't know) or what?

    Yep, pretty much.

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Percy Flage, in reply to 3410,

    Oh. Oh dear. Thank you. So this law will, generally, stop people getting for free now that which they might get from a Warehouse bargain bin for $5 in six month's time?

    In practice, could this have an impact on my freedom of expression (or opportunities to express myself freely) or is this all about ensuring that I'm a compliant, meek and obedient consumer? Viscerally, I would like to be affronted by the law, but if it merely curbs people's opportunities to swap nonsense...

    Since Apr 2011 • 5 posts Report Reply

  • Grant McDougall,

    Apart from the obvious legal and IT flaws of the bill, it's also flawed on a practical level, in that it'll be basically impossible to police who is actually breaking the law.

    For example, while a parent may own the computer and pay the connection bills, it's more likely to be their kids that d/l stuff. Yet there's no way of identifying the actual perpertrator, but the parent will be the one to wear the penalties.

    There's all sorts of possible scenarios where it'll be impossible to know who did it.

    It's not like speeding, where the camera picks you out.

    Dunedin • Since Dec 2006 • 548 posts Report Reply

  • Grant McDougall,

    In general, it's real locking the door after the horse has bolted territory, isn't it ? I'd love to know how many relatives and friends of politicians and NZFACT d/l stuff. Chances are it's many, many of them.

    This bill is egregious to the nth degree. It's much like trying to clamp down on home brewers because it's taking money away from breweries.

    Dunedin • Since Dec 2006 • 548 posts Report Reply

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