I don't think Maori TV should have shown it. To me it looks far too much like appeasement. The Chinese govt is a ruthless oppressive & racist regime under its current "friendly" face to the west.

I wouldn't support showing a North Korean "Look how happy our?

And now, on day?

I seem to be alone amongst usual-suspect media commentators in not at all minding Maori Television's decision to screen the Chinese embassy's "documentary" after The 10 Conditions of Love.

I thought it was a fantastic response from Maori TV – "right, you think it's biased and loaded, fair enough. We'll?

Greg O'Connor on tv1 yesterday

Blah blah taser bah blah cops under siege blah blah... Sorry, but I just zone out whenever O'Connor appears because he's depressingly predictable, and increasingly careless with the truth. But who wants to bet that O'Connor will the all over the media trashing the judiciary?

regarding the Chinese documentary:

I don't think Maori TV should have shown it. To me it looks far too much like appeasement. The Chinese govt is a ruthless oppressive & racist regime under its current "friendly" face to the west.

I disagree. I'm a grown-up, I can parse propaganda when I?

I thought it was a fantastic response from Maori TV – "right, you think it's biased and loaded, fair enough. We'll let you put your side of the argument straight after it".

But I'm going to ask you the same question, Gareth: You think MTS should extend the same 'balance'?

I really would like to know how an impoverished divorced woman becomes the seventh richest woman in China by starting a simple laundry business.

Yeah. I kept wondering if I'd drifted off and missed something.

I wouldn't advocate it for all situations, but it seemed like a nice one-off way of showing?

If the problem with gangs is their antisocial behaviour, how is being pre-emptively extremely antisocial towards them – based only on what they are wearing, and not their behaviour – going to solve the problem ?

Oh, I don't know. We used to have a gang problem in Italy but?

I can tell you the original script was looser and longer, and entered the culture a lot more. Two problems – one is money,?

Oh while we can all have a go at the predictable Greg O'Conner, how about a big word out to the resident intellectual?

I wasn't hugely impressed with the doco either but there's interesting comments about both length and content from the script editor on the Australian site Crikey

Interesting. I don't know if anyone else has been watching When the Levees Broke on Prime, but I've got to wonder if a politically?

Here's an analysis from someone who should know what he's talking about (scroll down to 'banning gang patches'). I'd guess he probably sits on the opposite side of the fence from most of us politically.

He's agin it. I can't really fault his analysis.

Here's an analysis from someone who should know what he's talking about (scroll down to 'banning gang patches'). I'd guess he probably sits on the opposite side of the fence from most of us politically.

But from my unscientific sample of front line cops of my acquaintance, he's more onto?

In fact I wonder if the move will be counterproductive. Demonising and outlawing gangs may simply them more exciting to prospective members. And how do you ban colours?

Of course,?

I'd guess he probably sits on the opposite side of the fence from most of us politically

Gangs in New Zealand are an unstudied mystery. Almost certainly these gangs would contain some good strategic minds.They are outside the law in that they have made their own laws more important.

and?

Oh, I don't know. We used to have a gang problem in Italy but since we told the mafiosi that they couldn't wear those hats the whole thing has just gone away. Just give the law time to work.

But they didn't include scarves, and now the [[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-godmothers-calling-the-shots-in-the-naples-mafia-1779395.html|women have taken?

And now, on day one, some thicko from The Tribesmen has set himself up for a court case that will test the bylaw against the Bill of Rights. Way to make bad guys look like good guys.

Did I miss something here? Russell, did you just say that the Bill?

But they didn't include scarves, and now the women have taken over !

That article was excellent, I thought.

I disagree. I'm a grown-up, I can parse propaganda when I need to. And I was genuinely interested to see what they'd do.

Completely agree. I thought it was an excellent move, to allow the Chinese government the right of rebuttal, because so far, they have shown that they don't?

Did I miss something here? Russell, did you just say that the Bill of Rights should only apply to good guys?

I think RB was saying precisely the opposite — the protection of the law applies to everyone, even those he doesn't much like. Which sounds just about right to?

I think RB was saying precisely the opposite — the protection of the law applies to everyone, even those he doesn't much like. Which sounds just about right to me.

Yes, that was what I meant.

That, and noting the fact that this bylaw has offered an opportunity to someone?

the gangsters will actually just not bother wearing their patches in town, and the town could be a bit safer

There's some logic missing there. I doubt public safety will be improved at all.

Would anyone say that I wasn't 'asking for it' if I did?

I wouldn't (but I wouldn't go drawing any comparisons using that particular phrase, either, as the situation is somewhat different.)

That, and noting the fact that this bylaw has offered an opportunity to someone I probably wouldn't much?

A new study by the United Nations urges New Zealand to do more to stop drug trafficking in the region.

The report Palermo in the Pacific, says governments around the Pacific Rim are making little headway against the organised crime syndicates behind?

Gangs in New Zealand are an unstudied mystery.

Actually, not.

Start with Bill Payne's 'Staunch'. Move on to 'The girls in the gang' by Greg Newbold and Glennis Dennehy. Have a chat to this guy. Finish up with 'True Red' by Tuhoe 'Bruno' Isaac.

That's just the NZ-specific stuff.

For?

He says New Zealand's laws are failing because they don't deal with the root problem of how lucrative the drug trade has become.

Gee whizz, how did that happen?

Has anyone else been particularly impressed by Maori TV,?

...presumably people will be equally intimidated by gatherings of people wearing colours.

Apparently people are intimidated by teenagers in malls wearing hoodies. Or by teenagers full stop.

I remember moving to a North Island town where I lived and worked near the local Mob house. It was plenty intimidating the first?

On the origins of New Zealand gang culture. It was more a product of institutionalization than drinking crates of piss, wasn't it?

Can you elaborate a bit?

Has anyone else been particularly impressed by Maori TV, not just in the way it handled this incident, but in general? They've been screening some very good films, too.

Yes, as a regular occurrence Maori TV has a far better schedule of films and documentaries than TV1,2,3.

Can you elaborate a bit?

New Zealand gangs, formed within prison walls, for the most. And, the drug most causal to imprisonment was alcohol (crates and jugs).

Has anyone else been particularly impressed by Maori TV, not just in the way it handled this incident, but in general? They've been screening some very good films, too.

Yes, as a regular occurrence Maori TV has a far better schedule of films and documentaries than TV1,2,3.

I agree, it?

banning people wearing patches doesn't stop people from being 'gang members', and isn't it better to be able to clearly/easily identify 'the enemy' rather than having to squint or look twice?

I take your point as far as it goes, but another is that if you think its the __couture__?

New Zealand gangs, formed within prison walls, for the most. And, the drug most causal to imprisonment was alcohol (crates and jugs).

Well, I guess it does depend which gang we're talking about. I think you're right about the provenance of NZ's own 'street' gangs (Mongrel Mob, Black Power).

However,?

From my limited experience of the breed, it was the casual brutality, glorification of criminality and abuse of women, and utter disdain for the property and human dignity of 'outsiders' that churned my stomach.

Nicely put.

George, I meant to delete Rich's note after cleaning up his formatting error — and I deleted yours instead!

Sorry. Could you have another go?

Sounds like first years from all boy schools to me.

Open a T-shirt printshop in Whanganui?

Well, I guess it does depend which gang we're talking about.

True, the storm troopers where borstal boys from Otara.
Some of those motor cycle gangs liked the odd jug but. And jail was where they galvanized.

However they originally formed, the common factor between then and now for all the established gangs seems to be the gradual slide into organised crime as the more?

The Magogs have a website, call themselves a "motorcyle club" and are kind of respectable. The Road Knights, not so much.

Yes, as a regular occurrence Maori TV has a far better schedule of films and documentaries than TV1,2,3.

Agreed – my only beef is that I usually miss anything good, because Maori TV programme details do not appear in the MySky guide screen.

The Magogs have a website, call themselves a "motorcyle club" and are kind of respectable. The Road Knights, not so much.

I do need to finess my last comment a little wrt 'all established gangs being criminals'.

It's not impossible that an independent group like the Magogs could have gone?

The Magogs have a website, call themselves a "motorcyle club" and are kind of respectable.

Named after the Biblical giants?

From my limited experience of the breed, it was the casual brutality, glorification of criminality and abuse of women, and utter disdain for the property and human dignity of 'outsiders' that churned my stomach.

Completely agree, having had some more than limited experience with the breed – you can't choose?

There's some logic missing there. I doubt public safety will be improved at all.

I agree that it's not logical and probably won't work. I'm presuming public safety is the 'argument' behind the ban, rather than just because Whanganui folk don't like the look of it.

I don't think that?

Named after the Biblical giants?

Yes, but I'm pretty sure it's 'as viewed through the filter of Irish mythology', in this particular case.

I'm presuming public safety is the 'argument' behind the ban, rather than just because Whanganui folk don't like the look of it.

I was discussing this law, and Gio's excellent crack upthread, with some colleagues today. One of them supported the ban, simply because it would annoy gang members. And?

It's more to show that there was a problem, that it's not just imaginary.

Thing is, though: what women wear has bugger-all to do with their chances of being assaulted. If the analogy holds, what gang members wear will have very little effect on violent crime. If it does have?

The Road Knights are strongly rumoured to have a lot of connections with some very unpleasant people – the Harris gang in Chch and SI white power groups, for example.

Yeah, they're very much in the mould of the unpleasant Canterbury white-trash gang. Every neighbourhood had a least a little?

From my limited experience of the breed, it was the casual brutality, glorification of criminality and abuse of women, and utter disdain for the property and human dignity of 'outsiders' that churned my stomach.

Just to endorse that, from my own brief but v. unpleasant experience – when things turn?

Gawd.

Gawd.

I see your 'Gawd' and raise you a 'Yeesh'.

There appears to be very little distinction between Laws the talkback host and Laws the mayor...

At least in Auckland we have a nice mayor.

This unfortunately gives the voters of Wanganui the impression he gets things done. Which is why they keep voting the clown back in.

At least in Auckland we have a nice mayor.

Oh for the irony tag.

I suspect Lhaws actually enjoys offending people, and thrives on the publicity. His is an ego out of control.

One would hope being, as Russell put it so descriptively, a flaming cock to twelve-year-olds – with a big dash of thinly-veiled racism to boot – might get him some actual?

The mystery of gangs is how the fuck do you stop them forming or how do you reform them.

Can I have a simple 'starter for 10' first to get me warmed up?

The authorities here are having some success however fighting the gangs in what they call Operation Al?

Today's Laws news: behaving like a great flaming cock towards some schoolkids.

Meh... I've seen first-hand how Laws treats uppity adults who have the gall to disagree with him, why should the yoof be treated any differently? Unfortunately, I can't spill the details without violating an (innocent) third party's privacy?

From my limited experience of the breed, it was the casual brutality, glorification of criminality and abuse of women, and utter disdain for the property and human dignity of 'outsiders' that churned my stomach.

Completely agree, having had some more than limited experience with the breed – you can't choose?

But Laws is already immune...

I think anyone who can describe John Key's response to the smacking CIR as "petty fascism", or chunter on about how Louise Nicholas is a pathological and vindictive liar who needs to get over the "mere sensual excesses" she was subjected to and move on?

I'm astonished no-one is pointing out the irony of one gang using its muscle to 'bash' another.

From what I can see, there's a bunch of males, wearing regulation dark jackets, making by-law that targets another bunch of males who wear regulation dark jackets with particular embellishments.

Police are public?

I have an acquaintance who says she can't bear to tune into Public Address Radio because she won't support a station that employs a fuck-tard like Laws. Can't honestly say I blame her.

No, that?s being precious.

NZ is such a small place that every media outlet employs someone distasteful?

Also, the police didn't make the by-law. They're just the poor saps that have to enforce it. I wouldn't be surprised if significant numbers of the local plod aren't too happy about that.

Rich: You're right up to a point, but I wish we weren't seeing pulbic statements like this?

No, that?s being precious.

Considering the thud of Listener subscriptions being dropped around these parts, I wonder if this is the best place to accuse others of being precious. :)

Hey, I can hold my nose, file my pieces, and accept they're going to be broadcast on the same frequency?

chunter on about how Louise Nicholas is a pathological and vindictive liar who needs to get over the "mere sensual excesses" she was subjected to and move on

Excellent, the touch of nausea I needed to complete my morning.

If someone cancelled a Herald subscription solely because Garth George writes for it, then I?d say that was pretty precious too.

Also, the gangs themselves are more than happy to refer to police as 'the big blue gang'. I'm therefore quite happy not to buy into that line of argument, myself.

So, being in a gang precludes the ability to undetake critical analysis ? I have a cousin who is a?

being in a gang precludes the ability to undetake critical analysis

That puts words in my mouth that I never said.

I'll address the rest of your argument when I get a chance.

From what I can see, there's a bunch of males, wearing regulation dark jackets, making by-law that targets another bunch of males who wear regulation dark jackets with particular embellishments.

Police are public servants and are employed by, and accountable to, various arms of government. And therefore, us.

As the?

That puts words in my mouth that I never said.

And you've come to exactly the wrong corner of the interwebz if you think anyone here — even a flaming rightie, like myself — is seriously going to argue that the Police are beyond criticism. But I'd rather pitch my?

Whereas, I feel bound to say, the Magogs spared me a beating one night when I arguably deserved one in New Plymouth ...

Did you piss on there legs at the urinals?

And meanwhile. On Craig's beloved North Shore the council's lack of commitment allows another Gang to harass an old lady and deprive her of her garden.

Dude, you're not getting all Randi Krishna on us, are you? You know, "the Resource Management Act is creeping fascism" as the Council stomps?

Breaching someone's human rights on the basis of who they associate with, not their behaviour in the instance, is the hallmark of facism not liberalism.

No arguments there. Just caveats. Human rights are slippery beasts, and the ban on patches is not a ban on association. It's a ban on?

Breaching someone's human rights on the basis of who they associate with, not their behaviour in the instance, is the hallmark of facism not liberalism.

Spot?

http://www.thedailymind.com/success/power-suit-or-open-shirt-what-do-your-work-clothes-say-about-you/

He said that?

Oh yeah...Thanks to the rather user-unfriendly archives on Stuff, I can't provide a link to the column on line but describing the behaviour of Shipton et. al. as "sensual excesses" wasn't something I'd forget in a hurry. There's vile, and there's going so far beyond the pale?

Personally I find suits intimidating...

Personally, the memory of a very angry Samoan drag queen built like the proverbial brick shit house and advancing towards me while brandishing a nose-bleed inducing stiletto heel still raises a cold sweat. Ban that bitch and her scary shoes!

Thanks to the rather user-unfriendly archives on Stuff, I can't provide a link to the column on line

The page has been moved (and thus lost) but here it is reposted on Kiwiblog. Hold your noses:

There was even less evidence and less corroboration in this current trial. I have?

Dude, you're not getting all Randi Krishna on us, are you?

No.
Did you read the story? I just seemed like so many kinds of totally stupid fuckedupness.

the ban on patches is not a ban on association. It's a ban on wearing a particular item of clothing in a particular place. As a human right, that's well down the list.

Yes, it's a freedom of expression matter. Here's?

Perhaps this kind of thing plays well to the home crowd, but I found it unwatchable.

I doubt that. Amateur political obsession is not a popular hobby/pasttime in China. Most of the self confessed experts come from elsewhere. I'd contend that the doco was probably more popularly watched in ten?

If someone cancelled a Herald subscription solely because Garth George writes for it, then I?d say that was pretty precious too

Speaking of whom... did The Herald build a new Garth George recently?

It seems to me that those who espouse the "one nation, one people" concept are invariably white, and?

As a human right, freedom of expression is not well down the list. It's right up top.

Not really. It's probably the one most subject to caveats of all. You can't, for instance, get away with slandering people, breaching various court infomation suppression orders, copying other people's work without permission,?

Who'da thunkit.

Most definitely not me. I read it waiting for a journalistic not even ow but it didn't come? WTF?

(Also: whoever translated those letters for him needs a lesson in the difference between literal and comprehensible translation. Seriously.)

Who'da thunkit.

Most definitely not me. I read it waiting for a journalistic not even ow but it didn't come? WTF?

WTF indeed. I'm getting a whiff of a born-again-Maori.

And meanwhile. On Craig's beloved North Shore the council's lack of commitment allows another Gang to harass an old lady and deprive her of her garden.

It would appear to me, that Steve has made the common mistake of thinking that Herald headlines are an accurate representation?

Speaking of whom... did The Herald build a new Garth George recently?

It seems to me that those who espouse the "one nation, one people" concept are invariably white, and stand to the right of the political spectrum. That, in itself, is a cause for suspicion.

Who'da thunkit.

More irony.?

Also, the police didn't make the by-law. They're just the poor saps that have to enforce it. I wouldn't be surprised if significant numbers of the local plod aren't too happy about that.

Rich: You're right up to a point, but I wish we weren't seeing pulbic statements...

Yes, it?

It would appear that "blocks" has a different meaning for headline writers than it has for myself.

Maybe it's a bad pun. Blocks could be like a 'block of land'. Try reading "Navy block's green-finger granny", and it's got a whole new meaning from one apostrophe. But it made you?

Isn't there, like, some Code of Conduct for mayors?

Each local government council has to have a code of conduct. Link here is the one for W(h)anganui.

As a human right, freedom of expression is not well down the list. It's right up top.

Not really. It's probably the one most subject to caveats of all.

Is it? That looks like a guess. Regardless, I didn't say it didn't have a lot of caveats. That just?

Mrs Pollock – who is fit for her age – said she wanted to keep caring for the land herself.

She was worried that her project would be undone by managers who did not understand the glade's history.

She had suffered health problems?

WTF indeed. I'm getting a whiff of a born-again-Maori.

Nah... Looked to me more like Maaris and their deep, untainted "spirituality" being co-opted as the latest cudgel in Garth's never-ending culture war against the Feminists, Gays, Liberals and the rest of you un-Godly secular humanists who've fucked up everything. You?

Ahh. The Herald's stupid put-the-last-few-paragraphs-on-a-second-page-to-increase-our-page-hits policy stymied me. It?

Those exceptions are usually caused by the fact that rights often conflict with other rights ...

Exactly. One of the key reasons to limit a right is because it conflicts with another right. By its nature?

The only thing that comes through strongly in this affair is that Whanganui doesn't know how to solve it's gang problem, and it has a dick for a mayor.

It also show that they, and local Police, are either dangerously naive or wilfully disingenuous if they believe this by-law is?

It also show that they, and local Police, are either dangerously naive or wilfully disingenuous if they believe this by-law is going to even begin to "stop gang intimidation".

On the flipside, they'll find out soon enough, so at least the debate can end and the question of the mayor?

I don't think we're disagreeing much now Steve. If we can agree that the right to freedom of speech is not paramount, much less absolute,

Well, I don't believe in absolute rights, so I agree that far. Whether it's paramount or not depends on what you mean; it is paramount?

There's the problem with a blasé attitude to freedom of expression: if it is a weak right, as you still seem to be maintaining, why would you need more than a weak justification to override it?

You don't. That's why it gets overridden all the time. The 'freedom to express?

It says much about those who vote (and inhabit the parallel universe of the Your Views section) that the vote is running 72% in favour of our man's rationality and impending sainthood.

if it is a weak right, as you still seem to be maintaining, why would you need more than a weak justification to override it?

You don't.

So why criticse even to the limited degree that you have here? A weak justification is required, and one was supplied ? you?

You're confusing two different types of principals.

Hard News: The next bylaw will ban irony

Best I get in now then.

principals

It's aggravating me, above any of the content, that this is being spelt wrong in a discussion about rights. Schools have principals.

I get similarly up and arms when Dungeon and Dragon geeks write along the lines of "Sir Arthur took up his horse's reigns..."

Umm, as you were.

Pals are obvious, tangible, you can shake hands with them, but the principal reason they're at the top of the pyramid is that they think they're important.

Ples note that the?

principles ... they really are important.

At least Chris agrees with me, then, Chris.

And in the comments, our friend Tom Semmens lashed we "guilty white liberals" who, I guess, drive past Struggle Street on our way to lattes and organic brioche on Ponce-on-by Road...

What made him Mr Angrypants?

Not like I need the competition. :) Anyway, I was tempted to get all "more working class than thou" on Messers Semmens and Trotter, but I've got three PAR pieces to finish and polish up today for recording tomorrow, so time focus on the paid?

I know one of your themes is the need for the left to disconnect from (to use the blogsphere) Public Address and reconnect with... well, people who don't have the time to blog from a nice office job.

Heh. Whatever else he may be, Mr. Semmens certainly isn't psychic.

Heh. Whatever else he may be, Mr. Semmens certainly isn't psychic.

Still, its rather nice being called a 'guilty white liberal' or Russell's neutered faux-Tory lapdog instead of a shameless white right-wing shit bag. (BTW, I was too busy laughing to be offended at being accused of unprincipled populism by?

[Tom Semmens, on Trotters blog]: I get the feeling many guilt ridden urban liberals would rather delude themselves gangs are noble savages...

Who are all these deluded guilt ridden liberals who think gangs are noble? Is it you, Craig?

I'll come right out and say it, and obviously put myself?

(BTW, I was too busy laughing to be offended at being accused of unprincipled populism by someone whose major contribution to on-line political discourse was photoshopping Helen Clark's head onto she-male porn.)

Once a slimey little arsewipe, always etc.

I hope you purged yourself with something strong after having words?

And it looks like the kind of people favouring the gang patch ban are also the same kind of people lambasting hate-speech law as thought crime.

Heh. In explaining their support for the patch ban, Hyde waffles on about being a libertarian and how it was the state's fundamental role?

Trotter's reference to WW2 history seems to ignore that part of its lessons.

And even on his own terms, I fail to see how imposing a dress code on the brownshirts (or Mosley's fascists, according to someone in the comments) made them any less toxic. And if we really want?

I fail to see how imposing a dress code on the brownshirts (or Mosley's fascists, according to someone in the comments) made them any less toxic.

Quite. Historical results somewhat undermine his argument.

And I have just been given a horribly distrubing mental image by Linley Boniface in the DomPost.

[Law's website is] a site absolutely awash in self-love.

Thanks for that, Linley. Where shall I send my?

Meanwhile, Lhaws makes the front page of the online version of the UK Guardian.

Well, fuck me with a dildo and call me a meat popsicle. I do hope Mike's next vanity Google isn't going to give him any ideas from down Doncaster way.

Thanks for that, Linley. Where shall?