Well, thanks for the link but am I the only person who questions the value of 'lobbying' by spam-generating websites? I wasn't really impressed when the Maxim?

I suspect the people behind it realised that the opponents of the bill were already deluging MPs with their views and decided that at least some kind of voice from the other side of the argument should reach MPs.

I kinda cringed when I saw the email feature too, but?

I'm usually suspicious of anyone bearing a manifesto.

i believe the appropriate verb is 'brandishing'.

Your reference to Baghdad Burning and the likely future for Iraq under hardline rule seems tragically accurate to me, and from my discussions with Cohen I would say he shares the analysis. He told me he thinks al-Qaeda has already won.

if i'm reading you right, and cohen is conflating?

He told me he thinks al-Qaeda has already won.

Yeah. I'm sure they're overjoyed to see their despised Shia enemies seize power and start ethnically cleansing Iraq of their Sunni brethren.

Even so, I don't see anything amiss with opposing sharia law and religious oppression brought on by believers of any flavour of imaginary people in the sky or?

As for your characterisation of ?smug little lectures?, well, come now. This is a polemicist who begs to differ, which means there's a debate to be had. Why forego that so you can stand in line to help with the whipping?

It's just that I object to someone who not?

Yeah. I'm sure they're overjoyed to see their despised Shia enemies seize power and start ethnically cleansing Iraq of their Sunni brethren.

Well, quite. If anything, al-Qaeda has lost in Iraq.

And now you have the bizarro-world scenario of the White House trying to build a conservative Sunni coalition in?

I'd guess that the relative strength of the hard left in the UK is responsible for Labour's (historical) poor showing there.

I would guess that the overwhelming reach of the, almost exclusively, aside from The Mirror, right wing tabloid press has something to do with it too

I've read some reviews about it that want me to punch walls, but I've not yet worked up the courage to actually see?

Speaking of books about Liberals, the West, and Islam anyone bothered to read D?Souza?s The Enemy At Home: The cultural left and its responsibility for 9/11 yet?

I'm still trying to finish his first book: __To Live in Infamy: How Beatkniks, Loose Women and Uppity Nigra were Responsible for Pearl?

If anything, al-Qaeda has lost in Iraq.

unless you consider the whole, "create a graveyard for americans" objective, which seems to be going swimmingly.

no, wait... that was afghanistan. i guess the graveyard thing is a moveable feast.

The Guardian's David Aaronovitch was a supporter of the Iraq war, and George Bush Snr was against it. Hillary Clinton and John McCain still refuse to apologise for their votes to?

why that sounds just like Michael Bassett.
and who else i wonder?

the fact of the matter is the entire world was united behind the United States in the aftermath of 9/11 – NATO invoked for the first time Article of the Washington treaty – and the most spectacular achievemet of the Bush administration has been the squandering of that goodwill.

As?

He told me he thinks al-Qaeda has already won.

if i'm reading you right, and cohen is conflating 'iraq' and 'al qaeda', then he deserves derision.

What Cohen said was this: "I think al-Qaeda have won. Zarqawi said right at the start of the occupation that we are going to?

Our democratic rights are far less under attack than, for example, those of women in Saudi Arabia, and yet confronted by the dreadful George Bush, we've forgotten our internationalism.

But that's a terrible example. One of the major criticisms of Bush from the Left (and from anyone, I hope) is?

Having said that:

I think the "Euston Manifesto" is an amazing piece of disingenuity. Outwardly, they?

It's easy to see how this is attractive to former Marxists. The ideas of driving for utopia and of the ends justifying the means were both popular aspects of Marxism.

Which is probably what I was trying to say.

http://aaronovitch.blogspot.com/

I've never really got into British blogs, with the exception of Harry Hutton, but I think this issue might be my entry point.

Case in point: section ?9) United against terror.?
The Manifesto devotes just seven lines to this crucial issue, including the assertion that ?Terrorism inspired by Islamist ideology is widespread today?, without any acknowledgement of the well-documented 50+ year?

In the developed world, it isn't. There have been just *three* succesfull Islamist terrorist attacks in the west since September 2001, including the WTC attacks.

Over a ten year period, the number of attacks in the west by right wing fanatics matches?

Over a ten year period, the number of attacks in the west by right wing fanatics matches that of Islamists (and without the WTC "success" would have been as bloody)

You might find this amusing

Over a ten year period, the number of attacks in the west by right wing fanatics matches that of Islamists (and without the WTC "success" would have been as bloody):

you missed this, although I have no idea where to place Aum Shinriko on any spectrum, but clearly they are?

Quite simply, the left refuses to accept the Heinlein-like propostion that we are locked into some kind of Darwinistic war between Arab arachnids and American humans

Leave Heinlein out of this – he's a poor standard bearer for the modern right, given that Moon as a Harsh Mistress would read?

you missed this, although I have no idea where to place Aum Shinriko on any spectrum, but clearly they are not Islamist.

And neither are the Tamil Tigers, who pioneered the tactic of the suicide bomb.

all seems back in order today though.

9) United against terror.
We are opposed to all forms of terrorism. The deliberate targeting of civilians is a crime under international law and all recognized codes of warfare, and it cannot be justified by the argument that it is?

http://www.indecent-left.blogspot.com

http://www.memory-hole.blog.co.uk

Both review Cohen's book and tear it apart.

http://memory-hole.blog.co.uk

If you need an antidote to Simon Wilson's indulgence of Nick Cohen's idiocy, check these links out.

It's not that al-Qaeda will take power in Iraq, but they have won in the sense that any stable society has become impossible.

yeah... as i remember it, zarqawi became affiliated with al qaeda after the invasion of iraq. the sunni-shia split was something to exploit to resist the occupation.?

I would like to know what those who opposed the war had as an alterntive.

Wha?! Obviously, the alternative is not engaging in unjust wars.

Please do not forget that good old Osama was trained with the Afghan Mujahideen by erm the CIA.,

My understanding was that whilst there were tentative links to the CIA (he had the code name Tim Osman), OBL's 1980s Afghani time was spent with the MAK, an organisation funded by?

'Wow! What happened here?'
'Well, this building used to be an orphanage but it caught fire. Thos bodies over there are all the orphans.'
'So you just let the place burn to the ground?'
'Well,?

I would like to know what those who opposed the war had as an alterntive.

neil mate, i've seen you trot out that line many, many times.

everyone agrees that saddam was a problem. the real question is, "is he a big enough problem to require the invasion and occupation?

Russell, have a look at that site with the creepy obsesion with Aaronovitch. Are you really keen on people who think that even putting pressure on the South African Govt to criticse Mugabe are is too much liberal intervention?

Which would be to mischaracterise the tenor of both the blog?

bloglines is choking on it because it's coming up as invalid. Check the validator errors.

It's not so much Cohen's initial support of the invasion of Iraq that irked me – I thought it was a tenable position even if?

I'll state at the start that I have no idea what would have been the best way of dealing with Saddam and that the war proved too costly in human life.

But I do not believe that the pre-war situation was sustainable and it caused?

Arro watch is hardly obbsessive and creepy. Were it so, it would be highly unlikely that Arronovitch would link to it from his blog under the heading "Good Stuff". It's light hearted mostly, and often slightly tounge in cheek. It's also happy to give Aro credit when they think?

But "we" didn't elect the Saudi government or the mullahs. We bear responsibility for them only insofar as we buy their?

In the article quotes Desmond Tutu –

?How can what is happening in Zimbabwe elicit?

On the wider issue of the "decent" left, they do not really care about issues such as Darfur or Zimbabwe, if they did they?

Well this is simply untrue. Saddam certainly profited from the arrangement but the amounts were peanuts compared to his profits from illegal oil trading with Turkey and Jordan. Oil for?

ANSWER?

Generally I'm for sanctions but with Iraq they went on for 12?

ANSWER et al get their knickers all in a bunch about a few meatheads on the night shift at Abu Graib doing some stupid stuff to some prisoners, during which no one was injured for which the soldiers were punished

james... if there was ever any doubt that you are?

doing some stupid stuff to some prisoners,

Well, when the Iranians do the same to those British sailors, that'll be just fine, won't it? It's only stupid stuff.

It seems that those who pride themselves on being tolerant are so tolerant that they will tolerate extraordinary intolerance, all in the name of tolerance, of course!! And the rest of us are just supposed to go "Okay, that's cool, what a good idea!? Maybe not.

Dude, when you're tolerating?

But if you?re interested, over at the Euston Manifesto site you can be part of an email campaign in support of union rights in Zimbabwe.

And Head Decent Tony Blair is?

I'm still trying to finish his first book: To Live in Infamy: How Beatkniks, Loose Women and Uppity Nigra were Responsible for Pearl Harbour

lol – the occassional bout of lefty introspection is a good thing, but it definitely has its limits.

Er.....

As for James and his "ANSWER actually sent money to Zarqawi" well you just have to laugh.

ANSWER et al get their knickers all in a bunch about a few meatheads on the night shift at Abu Graib doing some stupid stuff to some prisoners, during which no one was injured for which the soldiers were punished ...

Oh, sure. Apart from the prisoners who, according to?

The oil for food money was going straight into Saddam's pockets, not to feeding the people as it was supposed.

Actually, the money was held in trust for the Iraqi people. And then it was handed out in large, unaccounted wads of cash, lost, embezzled and otherwise taken from the?

People and groups that protested for woman's rights, gay rights social justice etc. find themselves working with or effectively supporting Islamists who have no concept of woman's rights that we would recognize, stone to death woman accused of adultery who are actually victims of rape and think gays should?

I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with that statement. It seems a stretch to say that women and gays were safer and enjoyed more rights than they?

Saddam wasn't a champion of anyone's rights but his own. But the society he ran was a more open and tolerant one than that which has taken?

Of course in Cohen's book pointing that out probably makes me a Saddam loving islamobaathistnazimulimofascist, but them's the breaks.

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that the oppression was spread out more evenly under Saddam, rather than making him into some sort of gay and women's right champion?

No, he was a murderous bastard, but read James' statement again, then read this:

The United States' four-year-old occupation of?

For me, didn't Bush inherit a huge surplus and well, hasn't it all gone, and then some, on teh war?

The surplus disappeared largely because taxes were cut and spending wasn't, but they'll be paying for this war for a very long time.

I've seen several estimates that the eventual?

The surplus disappeared largely because taxes were cut and spending wasn't

Arg, surplus, tax cuts! Run's screaming from room...

Saddam and sons seemed to me as misogynist as the clerics, so I'm struggling to say?

Wasn't the Philippines the first?

Here's something I had prepared earlier..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_history_events

To blame this on the US is absurd.

neil, seriously man... this blinkered allegiance to the colossal start-to-finish screw-up that is the invasion of iraq is admirable, but... really.

no-one in this forum is going to beat you down for admitting you were wrong.

well... maybe james. but we already?

well is the invasion reposonsible for the religious conservativeness in the Shiite community or not? Do you really think that had Sistani overthrown Saddam that there would not be an increase in the influence of conservative clerics? The main opposition to Saddam was based in the Shiite religious community.

But,?

That's less far-fetched than it sounds, actually. The US has no objections to such things in Saudi Arabia for instance. It's not like they US is actively supporting a democratic movement there or anything.

The US has no objections to such things in Saudi Arabia for instance. It's not like they US is actively supporting a democratic movement there or anything.

they are however supporting the free movement of large 4x4s.

That's in the constitution Che, beside the arming bears bit.

http://static.flickr.com/77/176773927_6defdfb686.jpg?v=0

These people have almost all been killed or fled the country

True to an extent but there's still a sizable secular opposition to the encroachment of fundamentalism. One disadvantage they had was having no preexisting organisational structure. The only secular structure was the Ba'ath Party. On the other hand the?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2000/10/bush200010

That's a little unfair too...at least one person saw it coming...

But in his 1992 remarks in Seattle, Cheney foreshadowed a future in Iraq that is remarkably close to conditions found there today,?

These people have almost all been killed or fled the country

True to an extent but there's still a sizable secular opposition to the encroachment of fundamentalism.

That would be nice, but I'm not sure it's true. This is from a History News Network article called 'The Death of Iraq's?

are you familar with the bizarro explanation of historical flipflops?

that episode of seinfeld was piss-funny.

and mj has a bunch of kids. all of them are destined to be as fcked as he is. so yes, i take the point.

But, if Iraqi nationalism was weaker on the day we invaded than it had been two decades before, it was still quite strong. As Kenneth Pollack has noted, when the National Democratic Institute asked Iraqi focus groups in the summer of?

this degree of sectarian violence, or even sectarian hatred, is unfamiliar to them.

That's because Saddam had ruthlessly suppressed his opponents. There was sectarian violence – against the Kurds and Shiites. The guards that so dismally taunted Saddam at his execution did so because they were Shiites and their community?

The notion there is no history as to why Sunnis are bombing markets and Shiites have formed death squads does not make sense.

It certainly doesn't, which is probably why no-one here seems to have advocated it. Citing Saddam's ruthlessness-on-stilts for the umpteenth time doesn't in any way absolve the?

A two and a half hour drive and a ferry journey later:

You mentioned the problem of the suffering caused by the sanctions, but this was already much diminished under the smart sanctions programme. Moreover, in my opinion, sanctions could have been further lifted (carefully and in a targeted?

Maybe it was Saddam's dictatorship controlling all the information channels, or maybe said Iraqi bloggers didn't want to know, but [[http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/marsharabs1.htm|sectarian violence and even genocide is not new?

it also points out that they were singled out as shia. which lends itself to the?

__"The fate of the Shi'a as a target of government repression was sealed following the February 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran. The Iraqi government, motivated by fears that revolution in Iran would spur its own Shi'a population to revolt,?

http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=67

Here is an opinion poll of some 5,000 Iraqis conducted during Feb 2007 that shows only 26% preferred life under Saddam, and that includes only 51% of Sunnis. That number is obviosuly a bit low as a lot of Sunnis have fled, but it is still amazing that?

You also linked to an Iraqi blogger than had a very pessismistic view of things, Iraq the Model has a bit of a different take.

Maybe Riverbends view of the life of women in Iraq is different from Omars because . . . she's a women. I'm a little wary?

It must be something to do with human nature, I have read that there are not insignificant percentages of both Russian and Chinese people who yearn for the days of Stalin and Mao, despite the 10s of millions of deaths for which they were responsible. Maybe they are the?

an opinion, not a "FACT"

you mean, the way that the documented torturing of dozens of probably innocent iraqis was only conducted by a few hill-billies is an opinion?

The left's mantra of multiculturalism, "we are all equal but different", leads directly to nonsense like the recent case in Germany linked to below where a woman was refused a divorce?

I have read that there are not insignificant percentages of both Russian and Chinese people who yearn for the days of Stalin and Mao

Amazing that the Russians would prefer the bad old days when capitalism, democracy and leaders like Yeltsin and Putin have bought them such freedom and prosperity?

multicultural policy resulted in the successful settlement of hundreds of thousands of individuals and families in places like new zealand, canada, the united states and australia throughout the?

it's also amazing how cherry picking a few dozen cases of abusive behaviour can tar a policy as "liberal and therefore bad".

Like the reference to that nasty little group who happen to be "at the vanguard of the antiwar movement". Therefore, if you harbour even the teensiest doubt about?

sanctions could have been further lifted (carefully and in a targeted manner). If combined with a continued rigorous inspections regime it would have been possible to do this and prevent SH from developing WMDs.

That's true that sanctions had become more fine tuned – the oil for food regime was?

it's also amazing how cherry picking a few dozen cases of abusive behaviour can tar a policy as "liberal and therefore bad".

Che,
I stated that I love the diversity of the world, but in order for multiculturalism to work , there needs to be a set of basic values?

needs to be a set of basic values and norms that all in society agree with and conform to

sure. but that is the fundamental premise of multiculturalism.

a multicultural policy tolerates diversity within limits. those limits are determined by the norms of the host nation, and migrants are expected?

I hadn't caught up with the Germans canning that judge. Great to see them standing up at last, I hope it is a sign of things to come.

Here is another German article from 2005 on the subject of honor killings. It is just horrendous. The idea that there?

I think the last sentence of the article sums up the confused state of many in the western world at the moment.

"Green MEP Jean Lambert, a staunch campaigner against the hijab ban, pulled out of the conference to avoid sharing a platform with the cleric after being told that?

"and migrants are expected to conform."

I couldn't agree more and this is where things are falling down. Some groups of immigrants, primarily Muslim immigrants are demanding that the adoptive country accept their way of doing things, for example by allowing various cultural practices to be practiced, and even?

I don't want to Godwin myself, but how far would you take the above? Are?

And those would, just by a happy coincidence, be yours?

I also have to query this idea that a German judge somehow?

Well, in a sense it's no different from westerners expecting to have a beer with their BLTs and dress how they feel like in muslim countries.

exactly. and, multiculturalism works along a spectrum from "very broadly tolerant and willing to accept integration of minority norms" to "what? who the hell?

And those [norms] would, just by a happy coincidence, be yours?

they vary between nation-states. doesn't change the premise tho.

At the core of Christianity are sentiments like "do?

Really? I'd say the scourge of nationalism which is just tribalism writ large still haunts Europe and North America. The British Isles is a case in point, and Catalunya, Navarra and Euskadi is another.

The good thing?

All of them, all 1.1 billion?

"Compared with Muslims, the ?crazy stuff? Christians do is just about completely negligible."

Remind me again how many "christian" countries have been invaded by "muslim" countries in the last 50 years?

I'm sure if you lives in Iraq you would not think?

i think he meant "clinical trials have shown Christianity to reduce the signs of aging by up to 76.843%"

anyone know how many million Muslims the crusaders have sluaghtered over the last aeon?

Really? I'd say the scourge of nationalism which is just tribalism writ large still haunts Europe and North America.

I agree that nationalism brings its own set of problems but I would argue that the nation state is a less violent means of social organisation than tribalism. (Violent death is?

I do agree that at present there are more Muslims that aspire to spread their religion violently but I believe that is caused by young men coming from conservative tribal backgrounds and feeling alienated by modernity. With a few lunatics like bin Laden thrown in.

i don't think i could?

Here, I agree with you. Opposing the hijab ban is one thing – I don't think a government has the right to tell me what I can or can't wear on my goddamn head – but even thinking about sharing a stage with such a person is lunatic.

Good!?

At the core of Islam is "submit or I will chop your head off". Islam has at its core the conquest of the world by Muslims, by war if necessary, for Allah. It is the only religion like this.

I'm no expert on religion as well, but the little knowledge?

He was born to a middle class Egyptian family, went to university and then went to live in Germany where he got a graduate engineering degree from a German Universtity.?

Unfortunately, as a few google searches and surfing of the web will show, examples of people like Ken Livingstone codling a crazed Islamic nutter cleric are a dime a dozen.

would you care to provide these quotes?

and, the 11 september bombers are not the tribal muslims neil is talking?

Mohammed spread Islam with tremendous brutality. Apparently his army would approach a town or city. He would send out an emissary who would tell the people to convert to Islam or he would kill everyone in the town or city, which he did on several occasions. A hell of?

Veiled Intolerance

Money quote:

As a rule, Islamism's greatest appeal is among second- or third-­generation "immigrants": maladapted youth whom the integration process has failed and who feel desperately torn between two worlds--their parents' country of origin, which many have never seen, and their adoptive?

"Islam needs to go through some kind of change or modernization, but Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of Allah and cannot be altered or reinterpreted in any way."

And I pointed out that the very same thing is true of a group of Christians on?

I agree that the left should not align itself with the excesses of Islamic fundamentalism, whatever those excesses might be. I would prefer to leave questions of comparative religion for another discussion, if thats okay.

As I interpret it, there is a broad desire on the left to ensure?

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

U.S. MUSLIM GROUP SAYS EGYPT 'BACKSLIDING' ON REFORMS
CAIR: No 'business as usual' in?

CAIR: http://www.cair.com/

chicago tribune article: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0703270505mar28,1,7295145.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

AFP article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070327/wl_afp/egyptconstitution_070327115149

i'll probably kick myself for getting involved in this, but had to share this, which i recieved today (take from it what you will):

In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful

Hi Anjum – thanks for this. And I hope you don't have to kick yourself :-)

The?

And while that dividing line might be somewhat gray, that honor killings, the cultural acceptance of wife beatings etc are over that line? This seems perfectly reasonable to me, or is that just neo Nazi neocon thinking?

And yet James I live in a country, 86% Muslim which has an?

And yet James I live in a country, 86% Muslim which has an almost negligible rate of domestic abuse. Indonesia, ...

And we mustn't forget that since Simon lives there, he must be absolutely correct, irrespective of anything you have heard to the contrary.

:)

OK, I'm sorry. Couldn't help it.

please let me be the first to groan very loudly :)

Neil,

Troops in Saudi were necessary for protecting oil supplies not the sanctions regime. Iran's border with Iraq is long and porous and their were no troops their. Yet sanctions we're effective enough.

And I have to say I haven't noted any secular groups, no "Atheists of Manhatten", no "Secular Progressives of Berkley", no "Humanists of San Fran". Just those damned Christians helping someone out every time you turn around.

No Red Cross either? I am surprised.

I assume you are unaware that?

a post on the de-liberalisation of frightened countries.

ha-hah!!

a post on the de-liberalisation of frightened countries.

Where do you find these crackpots Che?

it's making me increasingly paranoid...

i'm petrified i'd accidentally ingest a cherry-picked set of paragraphs from adam smith and develop on onset of extreme conservatism... a fate worst than death.

neololiberalism

great word. neologism + neoliberalism.

neoliberalism is after all new version of a perfectly good philosophy.

otherwise, the whole food metaphor didn't get past me going [homeresque] "rhubard.... gaaaaaa"

The wahabists can count more than a few well-educated, modern young men in their ranks. Indeed, their recruiting methods concentrate in part on wooing young men in Western universities. They're a little like the old communist states in that respect, and perhaps others too.

True, I was thinking more of?

neoliberalism is after all new version of a perfectly good philosophy

neocons aren't really conservatives (old or new) though. their agenda is quite radical and has nothing to do with turning the clock back or preserving the status quo. it is?

There is only one option. We must invade their countries, kill their chefs, and convert them to meat and three veg!

(sorry)

"note: terrance wood, extremist".

I think they were mainly there to stop Saddam invading which did protect oil supplies. But having then to deter Saddam made life difficult for the US since having foreign troops in the land of Mecca was a big problem for Muslims. The US was caught a bit there.

The?

Why do you hate freedom?

The need to deter Saddam after 1990 was superfluous

Not so, US troops in Saudi were there as part of the no-fly zone regime. The minute Saddam fell they were pulled out. The BBC reports on this – US pulls out of Saudi Arabia

Saudi Arabia is home to some?