Hard News: We'll find out where all the parties are
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Oh, and on a tangentially related matter -- bipartisan kudos to Helen Clark and John Key for a pretty temperate response to events in Wanganui. (Tariana Turia, Michael Laws and Ron Mark... well, understandable but I'm not sure how construcitve their contributions will turn out to be.)
The media, for the most part... creepy. I'd like to think my suspicion some media outlets would be rather chuffed by a gang war is too cynical, even for me - but I'm just not sure if some line between straight (and sober) reportage and pumping up the melodrama to justify the coverage got crossed very early in the piece.
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Finn, fair enough, I was being flippant but perhaps we're both making the same point: unsupervised youth will source and consume alcohol. I think rural parents presume there's not much damage a kid can do to themselves in a rural environment. This point was disproved a few years back when a young girl also drove thru a crowd (outside a rural hall) and killed someone.
Funny enough, I was talking to my other half about this on the weekend - assuming you're referring to the incident up near Whangarei. She knew the girl who died, being from that end of the world.
The conversation was basically along the lines that, in small rural places, people die young for stupid reasons. And it's true - I had a fairly rural upbringing, and when I think back over the people I knew who've died since it's all been for fairly stupid reasons. Getting drunk and falling off cliffs, for example.
But I think the whole problem with rural NZ and teen drinking is really a function of two things:
1) The problem with being a rural or small-town teenager, anywhere. Living in the countryside is fantastic for kids because it quite simply IS safer and offers more opportunities to do kid stuff. But once people hit their teens they tend to start to want to get involved in what they perceive as more grown-up activities while also chasing excitement.
2) The fact that the rural culture in NZ is very heavily organised around drinking, and drinking hard. Most social occasions for adults involve drink, and at basically any of them it's not abnormal to see adults in a state of intoxication well beyond what could be considered healthy.
Trying to cut off the supply of alcohol to the kids isn't going to help, they'll get it somehow - and the more the removal of alcohol becomes about official and parental control the more the drinking will move into environments out of the reach of parents and official oversight. The problem is about providing appealing things to be doing which aren't:
* Getting off your head on a substance of some description, with alcohol being the most socially sanctioned and available.
* Having sex
* Doing stupid stuff in cars.... because basically as a rural teenager that seems to be the bulk of what's on offer in terms of activities in NZ.
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"Just because someone hasn't been run over at a party in Auckland doesn't mean Auckland parties aren't similarly out of hand"
Not just in NZ either - its fairly common practice in the suburbs of Sydney or in rural areas for organised teenage house parties to have security at the door, either professionals or teams of 'Dads' who are there to stop gate-crashers who are mobilised by text.
This from last weeks SMH - http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/dad-smashed-with-hammer-as-gang-attacks-birthday-party/2007/04/28/1177460052376.html
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Oh, and of course fighting, which leads back to the rest of the conversation...
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Oh, and of course fighting
Time for some 'make love, not war' education for the youngsters then?
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Well, in all honesty Jeremy in many rural bits of NZ they could probably do with less of that, too. Or at least a bit of education on the subject of how to go about it without producing babies.
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>Hopefully after drinking in pubs/clubs for three years you'll discover the joys of binge drinking aren't so cool after all.
I've been binge drinking for going on 18 years now, and apart from the occasional cringe of embarassment on a Sunday morning, I still haven't found the downside, personally.
I grew up in Wellington's answer to Chch, Upper Hutt. It's white, violent and scary. At least half of our parties in 6th/7th form would end when the local skinheads got wind of where we were and would turn up to bash everyone they could. Of course it did provide an excuse to grab the nearest girl and go and hide in the bushes with her, "for safety".
My 16th birthday ended up like the Chch parties Russell's talking of. 20-30 people were invited and I kinda knew things were going badly when I heard at school on Friday there was going to be a "house demolition party" at a strikingly familiar address...
Hundreds turned up, scaled fences, skinheads sprayed my mum and dad with beer, police turned up, left, skinheads turned up again, police turned up again, the guy we'd hired as security ended up scoring the girl I had a crush on... great night.
As a result, my younger sisters were never ever allowed to have parties. Probably lucky as by that stage my parents were living on the Shore.
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well growing up in the late 70s I always took the milling around outside the pub at 10/11 looking for parties to be our equivalent of the 6-o'clock swill - enforced on young people with more energy than their elders
What may be happening now is s hoonish version of a flash-mob - instead of information about parties being passed by word of mouth outside the pub (and forgotten or garbled by half of the recipients) - now we have reliable texting doing the exponential mob thing ....
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I think that one of the problems with rural NZ is that there are few interesting jobs, which leads to an exodus of smart young people, which in turn leads to an unbalanced community. This happens to some extent in a lot of places, but especially here where the economy is too small to sustain much in the way of creative or knowledge based employment outside Auckland and Wellington.
I'd also think that the enforcement of the drinking age is a bit counterproductive. When I was a 16/17 year old in England, the drinking laws were laxly enforced and underage drinking was tolerated *provided* one was well behaved. Also, pubs with a big youth clientele were more likely to ID you (as they attracted the attention of the cops), so us youngsters tended to go to quieter adult pubs - which also helped encourage responsible behaviour.
With strict enforcement, teenagers don't have this choice and will get booze somehow (and how do you stop 18 or 21 year olds buying beer for younger people - dope is illegal at any age but easy enough to get hold of, after all) and drink it in any suitable unsupervised venue. -
There seems to be a feeling that chch is a particularly violent city. I've lived most of my life in the area, and I've felt that vibe plenty of times. Not lived in Auckand, but Wellington and Sydney after dark seemed safer.
On the other hand, I don't think the statistics bear this out. From the (few) I've been able to glean, Chch has a slightly lower rate of violent crime than NZ as a whole. Interestingly, the councils own "safer city" strategy finds while most people feel safe in their homes and neighbourhoods, only 29% feel safe in the centre city after dark. (That'd be the teens and twenty-year olds that flock to bars?)
There's a feeling after dark on chch weekends of slightly mad, out-of-control male aggression. Guys who are looking for it. Incredibly tense people you might be able to talk out of hitting you- or not. I've seen a little of it- moments when the "social contract" just dissolved, and fight or flight became a reality.
The casual racism of the text message is chilling- not just because it's nasty, but also the way it plays into a racist chch narrative- a very easy one to slip into. (My 15-year-old daughter got the party text- many 1000s of kids who didn't go, surely got it too- if she's still got it I'll check the wording. If she'll let me near the phone...) If racism in some form triggered the killer- perhaps made him snap- that's shocking too. Chch is still quite insular and white- though that has also changed a lot in the last 15 years.
There's also a social disconnect here: priveledge and poverty aren't seperated by, eg the mangere bridge: a street or two from Fendalton you're in amongst the state housing. People sometimes talk about high-schools as if where you went matters (one of the bigger racial changes has been to see a lot of asian kids at the "elite" private schools.) There's snobbery and "in-crowds" a-plenty- but then I don't think that's unique.
There's also a biggish "underworld"- prostitution, a fairly big drug culture, some nasty gangs. And "binge-drinking" in spades. It's never been as "respectable" (nor as conservative- we consistently vote well to the left of Auckland) as the stereotype- and maybe the stereotypes do some damage.
It's flat and we have a fohn wind... but it's also not the "rural" city some commenters seem to describe: big enough to have some "big-city" problems- and to be a major (in nz terms) manufacturing and it centre.
Yet I still think the city is taking a bit of a bad rap here. The stats don't come through with a portrait of a city in deperate thrall to out-of-control violence- and that's not the experience I get from inhabitants, either. -
I grew up in Wellington's answer to Chch, Upper Hutt. It's white, violent and scary. At least half of our parties in 6th/7th form would end when the local skinheads got wind of where we were and would turn up to bash everyone they could.
What is it with skinheads ruining other people's parties? And then they complain about having nothing to do ... I risked a thumping a couple of times in Auckland (does Auckland still even have skinheads any more?) just telling them to fuck off, but it seemed to work. They were born followers.
And it appears that the Christchurch incident was preceded by a skirmish with skinheads. Not that that's any excuse for getting in a car and murdering random strangers.
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Yet I still think the city is taking a bit of a bad rap here. The stats don't come through with a portrait of a city in deperate thrall to out-of-control violence- and that's not the experience I get from inhabitants, either.
No, but there is - and there was when I grew up - the particular kind of random violence you described above.
Point well made about separation in Auckland: I don't know much about the south or the east, but the Auckland CBD feels a lot safer - more predictable - than the centre of Christchurch on a Saturday night.
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What is it with skinheads ruining other people's parties? And then they complain about having nothing to do ... I risked a thumping a couple of times in Auckland (does Auckland still even have skinheads any more?) just telling them to fuck off, but it seemed to work. They were born followers.
I remember a particularly bright one, named Rocky, at the AK Uni Cafe about 83...stomping up and down the stage chanting "kill all blacks"...he was a Maori.
It was a thing though...go to a party...wait for the skins to come and beat the crap out of some of the guests...wait for the police to come and beat the crap out of the skins...go home...repeat the next week...
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Skinheads- yeah, I asked some (auckland) skins to leave a party once- they were wandering around openly looking for stuff to steal- and ended up getting a bottle of beer (back in the day of decent-sized bottles) smashed over my head. Luckily the top of one's skull is quite hard. I just kept on trying to push them out the door, and they had run out of tricks, and skedaddled (?).
OTOH I still have a chipped tooth from a chch bootboy who actually knew how to fight (I didn't- and was befuddled enough not to have another exit strategy) and didn't mind kicking a dork who was down.
I think it was primarily about boredom. Teaching kids how to deal with boredom (entertain yrself!) is very worthwhile. Like anxiety, there's constructive boredom.... And maybe that's part of the issue too: teenagers live for excitement. And while that often means doing things that aren't exactly safe, there are degrees and ways of being unsafe- and most of them don't involve endangering others. -
not to belittle what happened here, but aren't we talking about one drunk moron and his car? does it require all these explanations?
Paul Henry needs to realise that Close Up isn't talkback radio
Funny, that's exactly what i said last night. Talkback hosts annoy the hell out of me.
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I have never lived in Christchurch - never even given the place much thought. It was only ever a transit point for the scenery in that pretty but quaint old South Island.
But reading this thread it is clear that this "Christchurch" is a breeding-ground for degenerate, anti-social behaviour. Nothing good can come out of it.
And it is clear that New Zealand now faces a stark choice.
Epsom Girls' Grammar or Burnside High.
I think it is clear where our duty lies.
Thank you.
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I've always found inner city Christchurch at night to have a pretty weirdly violent vibe which is one of the reasons I've never lived there. Although I was impressed by some of the new restaurants and bars around those side streets of Lichfield St.
Christchurch often complains that the inner city shopping district has been killed by the suburban malls, but when it comes to drinking the inner city dominates. Kind of perverse really.
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not to belittle what happened here, but aren't we talking about one drunk moron and his car? does it require all these explanations?
But it's not just one incident. It happened a few years back in Whangarei, and someone else here suggested it also happened in Papatoetoe (TBC). I don't think it's a case of reacting to one incident that happened last weekend. There's a pattern emerging and either we address it or let it continue. And already the chorus has started: 'that's just how it is", "kids have always found illicit booze", "you can't do/change anything," and "I had some wild times when I was a kid and I turned out alright".
Talkback hosts annoy the hell out of me.
That's why right wing talk radio is more popular in the US than liberal talk radio. Michael Laws morphs into Leighton Smith more and more every day.
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We were all 16 or18 and life just staggered from one weekend to the next. All we wanted was friendship, laughs, community/identity. No normal 16 year old goes to a party expecting violence. When it happens to you at that age it's an indescribable horror. On another point, what I don't understand from my viewpoint is the attitude to the Police from these young people. On the one hand some taunt the Police and yet when an unspeakable crime happens to them, they need them...ah, the ironies of youth.
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But it's not just one incident. It happened a few years back in Whangarei, and someone else here suggested it also happened in Papatoetoe (TBC). I don't think it's a case of reacting to one incident that happened last weekend. There's a pattern emerging and either we address it or let it continue.
What pattern would that be? People of variable age driving cars into other people at drunken parties? I'm not unsympathetic to a well-supported argument about the drinking age, but at this point in time I really don't see how changing the drinking age is going to stop a 22-year-old murdering somebody with a car. I don't see how your conclusions follow from the premises.
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3410,
A tip for dealing with unwanted skinheads at parties: Play the "Cabaret" OST, loudly. They can not stand it and will split.
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"There's a pattern emerging and either we address it or let it continue."
NI - I only partially agree, I think part of the point of the many personal stories given here is not to suggest 'I had some wild times as a kid and I turned out OK' but to suggest that this 'pattern' is not a new thing - kids have been killed or injured by misadvanture/alcohol & drug abuse/dickheads with cars for eons. The medium changes but the song remains the same. Every now and then something so tragic happens that media interest escalates, but really, I don't believe much has changed over the decades.
But completely agree with you that there are some things that could/should be done about it. Maybe its a combination of many things, tweaks to drinking age legislation, greater parental supervision, alcohol sales controls, teenage drug education, provision of safe entertainment premises etc etc.
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And it appears that the Christchurch incident was preceded by a skirmish with skinheads. Not that that's any excuse for getting in a car and murdering random strangers.
Well I partied up for years in Christchurch and only experienced violence once, and that was with a bunch of rugby bohos. Surprisingly I was at the clubhouse of the Riccarton klan bar (cheap beer, friend of a friend etc..., don't ask ..) and these rugbyheads decided kicking over the Klan biker guys bikes would be a good idea. Next thing it was all on. I was inside trying unsuccessfully to find something to put on the stereo that wasn't heavy metal. I went out for a wander and it was like something from a movie with people happily kicking and punching each other with varying degrees of effectiveness (it was late afternoon as everyone was sparking up for the Motorhead concert later that night). I didn't realise what was going on at first as I was a little 'confused' and by the time I did and decided I should proceed back into the house, I was right in the middle of it. I'm not sure how many punches missed me but I finally copped one right in the ear and it really bloody hurt, even in my anaethetised state. At that point I decided to leg it, free beer only takes you so far at a social event.
The other time I got close was at a skinhead party. I was chatting to a mate, his partner and another woman, we were having a laugh. Next thing everyone went silent, just stopped, the woman got up and walked away behind me. I looked around and there was a skin standing over me tapping a lead pipe against his hand, menacingly. I thought 'Oh f*ck, I'm dead' and had a tiny moment just waiting for the hammer to come down, but he was just being staunch, and turned around and walked off.
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But it's not just one incident.
yeah that's kinda my point. to a certain extent, you're always going to get drunk teenagers looking for excitement.
personally, i blame the parents
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