[The thread appears twice in System for some reason.]

[The thread appears twice in System for some reason.]

In fact, there actually are two threads.

This is the result of a chinese coal mine explosion, 37 dead.

The chinese mines are inherently more dangerous but coal mines are bad places to be when an explosion occurs.

Although China?s mine safety has improved from the low point of 2002, when 7,000 deaths were recorded,?

[The thread appears twice in System for some reason.]

In fact, there actually are two threads.

Indeed, there are. We're looking into it right now.

I would have thought that "missing" would be a much better word to avoid generating unwarranted hope.

FFS, they're not missing. I think we've got a reasonable idea where they are, they're trapped. Perhaps the real issue here is a great deal of wild surmise that is spectacularly useless.

"Do your job responsibly, so I can do mine."

YMMV as to whether the Pike Creek gore crows have?

Perhaps the real issue here is a great deal of wild surmise that is spectacularly useless.

Just watched the press briefing. Man, foreign journalists are much more aggressive than the locals. And the police and everyone else are getting palpably tired of batting away speculative statements framed as questions.

One News took the live cross to new heights of pointlessness

On the first night one of the channels crossed live to Christchurch, umpteen hundred kilometres away. I'm not sure how the reporter in Chch standing in front of something completely irrelevant knew more than the newsreader in Auckland, but?

And the police and everyone else are getting palpably tired of batting away speculative statements framed as questions.

I've got to say there's more than a few people whose self-control has been downright legendary. I'd have snapped "why don't you fuck off and do something useful, you parasites" a loooong?

(trying to avoid a Craig-like burst of profanity that must be redacted)

Hey, I do it so you don't have to. :) And you're right — very easy to be be brave with other people's lives when you're sitting behind a keyboard (or in an air conditioned newsroom/studio hundreds of?

Moving away from the keyboard to try and resist 140-character flame job on Twitter moron who thinks he knows more than ?that berk Knowles?.

If anything, I?d say Knowles has been a case study, from a PR point of view, in how to front situations like this ? his demeanour?

FFS, they?re not missing.

I think you'll find that they did not return to the surface at the end of their shift, which (to me) makes them "missing". "Trapped" implies to me that they are alive, and known to be alive. As far as I can ascertain there have not?

NZ Police (and the entire NZ establishment, by extension) could not ask for a better public face for this incident.

I wouldn't exactly call him cool-headed.

As far as I can ascertain there have not been any reports of a blockage in the mine, only a power failure, an explosion, and poisonous gases.

That was the upsetting thing about reading the account of the two survivors in today?s Herald. It made the strong implication that only?

Cue slow-mo of clusters of ruggedly-handsome men, festooned with BA cylinders and other paraphernalia, pickaxes over one shoulder, chiselled jaws set firmly, striding purposefully toward the mine entrance. That?s how it happens, right?

No wait, I've seen that movie! (particularly the bit where he has to enter via some massive?

I've caught some of the press briefing?

I?m also getting irritated (trying to avoid a Craig-like burst of profanity that must be redacted) by the implications that the rescuers are a bunch of sissies.

Yeah, that's obviously wrong, I think. I'll bet every other miner in the area is begging to go in as soon as allowed.

I?ve said it before, ?Emergency services personnel have it drummed into them again, and again, and again

The IPCA found the Police failed in their duty of care in that situation you refer to, hardly a shining example Matthew.

No wait, I?ve seen that movie!

What about this movie?

to the media pack:

?Do your job responsibly, so I can do mine.?

They call it fiction for a reason

it made them look shallow and exploitative

Isn't that in the vision statement?

Something like this, that shows the dangers of mining, is more likely to have an effect on future mines than anything the Greens can wheel out It is a dangerous business

If I were a cynical shitbag looking to use the situation to drum up support for, rather than opposition?

From the 17-year-old spending his first day underground to the man who volunteered to work two hours of overtime, meet the 29 men trapped underground.

This isn't a reality game show. Show some fucking respect.

Marty Palmer trudges out, his shift?

For one thing, most people in Greymouth wouldn't know anyone working at the mine and might well go for a beer regardless, but the story doesn't fit that way.

Particularly bad was the story entitled It begins as a normal day but ends in fear

Are the HOS writers still going through puberty? I was half expecting it to break into "why don't nice girls like me?"

That is-the more adjectives you can insert into a story, the better it is.

I couldn't believe they'd be so bloody callous!

That aside, what a bad year for the South Island. I'm a Dunedin lad born?

I might've heard the story mis-reported, but that's a shocking case of political opportunism gone bad from however asked the question.?

. . . did I really hear that someone in Parliament asked John Key why New Zealand?s mine standards weren?t up to Australian standards, such as including oxygen supplies?

Don't think anyone tried to make an issue of it in Parliament. Perhaps this is what you're referring to.

In fact Key brought the matter?

One thing I?ve found interesting is the report that Allan Dixon rang his wife from in the mine, after the explosion.?

In the nearby township of Runanga, the partner of 60-year-old Alan Dixon says she received a call from the phone in the mine, after the explosion.

"It was quite fuzzy," says Dixon's son, Joel.

Police are dubious?

The nation starts to demand more and more loudly that rescue attempts begin. This is anger born of emotion and is understandable amongst relatives and close friends. But Superintendant Gary Knowles, whose heart is breaking and anger simmering, does not need to be challenged again?

Speaking of which, did I really hear that someone in Parliament asked John Key why New Zealand's mine standards weren't up to Australian standards, such as including oxygen supplies?

That was certainly how the CEO put it in the press conference.

If companies that contract to Watercare Services have wee?

I believe (though not for sure) that the?

3 days to find a spark free robot for reconnaissance?

Try reading about intrinsic safety before you get ideas about just how easy it ought to be to find such a thing. Real intrinsic safety, of the quality necessary for operation in a methane-filled environment, is hard. It's expensive as?

Either methane explosions are an uncontrollable reality of coal mining, in which case the mine should never have been allowed to open at all.

Right, then, let's shut down every industry in which there is the slightest possibility anyone could ever be killed, by anything. That's going to go well.?

Can it go 2.5 km on batteries? Can it do the job without throwing sparks and blowing any survivors to kingdom come? Can in haul cable and so on?

Yes. They also have remote control ones an'all.Unfortunately the don't have the right Pig on the case (Pipe Inspector Gismo)
Why?

While the self congratulatory little bourgois world moves along its predictable track of ?Mr Plod knows whats best for us all?

If that translates as "an experienced officer, at the scene, with access to expert advice from all over the world probably knows more than me — given that I?

Yes. They also have remote control ones an?all.Unfortunately the don?t have the right Pig on the case (Pipe Inspector Gismo)

Sofie. FFS. You're sitting around in Aucland, not really knowing anything, and you're happy to declare the guy who does have to make the decisions a "pig" . Really?

Has?

And yet drilling another hole through rock is OK?

It is when ones uses that well known lubricant and anti combustion agent. It also keeps the dust down.

..."As the rescue preparations go up into the hills a group of rugged West Coast men, one with the handlebar moustache you see quite a bit around here, quietly drink beer outside the pub as the helicopter thumps away into?

However, they are specialised... ie., for pipes, not rubble-strewn mines.

I?m no engineer but...

I can't even be bothered with this. Usually it's said that everything before the "but" is bullshit. I've got an industrial design degree and I'm going to STFU about this.

Either methane explosions are an uncontrollable reality of coal mining, in which case the mine should never have been allowed to open at all.

Could you do us a favour by boycotting your computer (made with steel, which requires coal) and power supply (high-tension steel cables require coal) until there's?

The truth is, things look bleak even if a miracle is visited on the mine and everyone comes out safely. The Pike River mining company is deeply in debt, and it will not open again. All the jobs are gone.

Pike River Coal Ltd is gone but the coal is?

Interest rates to rise if credit rating hiked

and then follow it immediately with

Standard and Poor's has put the country on notice of a possible downgrade to its credit rating – which would be likely to raise interest rates?

"...I tapped my cigarette on the bar and turned to the men drinking. "Say, any of you boys got a light?" It was then she walked in, she was the kind of dame that could get a man into trouble..."

Heh. Nice one, Tom.

The inquiry should also look at whether the workers' representatives bargained safety away to get coverage of all workers. If that did happen then those self described trade- unionists need to be slotted up in the cell next to the company's so-called mining experts who ran the show.

Wow, that?

But not surprising as there will be serious questions now about the future of the mining industry in NZ, and the NZ public's support for it (especially this mine which is in?

The rescue robot has been sent into the Pike River mine but failed due to mechanical issues after encountering water, the dad of a trapped miner says.

Has anyone asked if the cops running this were transferred to the West Coast after they failed to find Anan Liu?

Why would it be the cops? job to waterproof the robot?

Matthew, you're just not helping with the cop-bashing.

Srsly, the Police are certainly due their fair amount of criticism in some cases, but I can't see what they could do better in this situation.

There seems to me there are two alternative narratives here. Either it was decided they were all dead on Friday, but that can't publicly?

SMC: Have robots been used effectively in the past in the wake of mining cave-ins or explosions to aid in rescuing miners?

[[http://www.misom.arizona.edu/content/misom-laboratory-director-dr-sean-dessureault|Sean?

The different is, if a firefighter goes into a building on fire, while there?

The Herald's Your Views page is amusing in that most of the criticism of the police seems to be that they're not acting like rescuers act in movies or in TV dramas.

Ah, you mean the movies and television shows that enjoy the services of professional stunt, pyro and FX?

That is just gratuitously condescending.

At least he's not charging for the condescension. Small mercies.

The Herald?s Your Views page is amusing in that most of the criticism of the police seems to be that they?re not acting like rescuers act in movies or in TV dramas.

I seem to recall making a parody post on this very topic yesterday. Oh, that's right, I did.

The obvious thing to do here is contact Hollywood and assemble a team of crack actors led by Bruce Willis to go into the mine.?

Those two letters appeared in this morning?s Herald. It seems to me that they poignantly express what many of us may have felt watching the press conferences being held by the authorities handling the?

it is the clear failure to anticipate the potential water problem.

An interesting phrase used in the news just now "using the robot was a long shot" So was it a "clear failure"? I'm afraid that I was not, as you appear to have been, present on the discussions about?

The obvious thing to do here is contact Hollywood and assemble a team of crack actors led by Bruce Willis to go into the mine.

What you all don't seem to realize is that Sylvester Stallone has already found the back way out for all 29 guys, and will himself?

?In hundreds of years of methane explosions in coal mines, why is it that if the coal earns billions, there is such reluctance to develop technology to prevent recurrences??

WTF. Anyone with a tiniest shred of knowledge of the history of mining should have heard of the Safety Lamp.

Real. Humans. FFS. Show some restraint.

We have a situation where the police are running the operation, but then it appears they are not running anything to do with the actual rescue, even though they front foot the press conferences?

Well yes, that?s why you fly experts in, instead of getting one person to do everything?

Sometimes it is risky to rescue but that is the job.

Perhaps you missed the part where a failed rescue could not only kill the rescuers, but the miners.

Not sure that Grey District Mayor Kokshorn exactly covered himself with glory with this question, either

"I'm only a lay person, my first thoughts were why didn't it have a bit of?

Meanwhile, in that country that, apparently has no respect for human life or rights, they rescued their 29 miners within a day or so.

Ah, the news article I saw on BBC world last night said 22 miners and 7 rescue workers had to be rescued?

ie. the first rescue?

Sometimes it is risky to rescue but that is the job.

I think you'll find the job is to take all reasonable risks.

If you want employees to start taking risks that are judged to be unreasonable, you're going to have to pay them a crapload more.

As for?

Any risk that cannot be readily contained and avoided is likely to mean we don?t go in.

As for it being the job, as someone pointed out upthread, the job is to help people

Precisely. Even EOD techs are taking considered, calculated risks when they stroll up to a suspected?

"take all Necessary risks"

I don't even know what that means. Necessary to make every feel better that something is being done, even though that something is likely to make the situation worse?

"Why didn't they just waterproof a robot" is possibly one of the stupidest things I've heard.

I'm picturing Selleys no more gaps. Apply liberally, obviously.

I'm also thinking that most people's understanding of what this robot is like comes from Short Circuit.

Now I remember why I stopped writing here. Neither passion nor logic.

2500 posts to reach that conclusion?

Sorry you feel that way. [You know, in the same way celebs are sorry if others take offence at their drivel.]

I wouldn?t have volunteered to do rescue work if I didn?t have a passion for my fellow human beings, even if some of them are thick as sh*t.?

This just went from mildly disturbing to all out inappropriate, IMnsHO.

Real. Humans. FFS. Show some restraint.

Quite.

I'm entirely inexpert on these matters and despite comments upthread about fanciful faith in the authorities, I do assume that everyone charged with this rescue is doing everything they possibly can.

This?

Unless Stallone beats them to it.

Must get autographs ...

possibly this distress is getting the better of some commenters?

That's charitable of you. I'd say that some commentators just don't quite get that real life isn't a Stallone/Willis movie, or even a reasonable facsimile of Backdraft. People die in real life, rather than getting to do a re-take.

People die in real life, rather than getting to do a re-take.

As an aside, I have died, I am still here.

They did a fairly reasonable job of putting men on the moon / building the railways / making an atomic bomb / etc.

This story says that there's only one robot in the world specifically designed for mine collapse.

There is indeed?

That's charitable of you. I'd say that some commentators just don't quite get that real life isn't a Stallone/Willis movie, or even a reasonable facsimile of Backdraft

That's uncharitable. No one is seriously suggesting hero time. It is also worth discussing the risk/benefit analysis, it sheds light on why decisions?

I spoke with lots of my customers and they all are sick of the media attention. Quite a few comments along the lines of :?

It was dominated by implied criticism of the mother — not only from the dad, but?

Are they saying that they have only one drill rig for this job, with only one motor for it?

Why do they ? after more than four days ? still appear to not have all the equipment they need for all forseeable contingencies?

The terrain is difficult, to put it?

I know that in your magical world where repairs and replacements take place at the speed of light money also grows on trees and spare capital equipment is just littering the countryside ready for use once every few decades, but this is the real world.

Matthew, that seems unduly harsh.?

I would also add that I really don?t know how useful it is for people to be adding to the families? frustrations by egging on the ?why haven?t they got down there yet? line of inquiry.

I think if the mining rescue team – made up of miners – thought?

The terrain is difficult, to put it mildly.

That was conveyed quite well by some pictures 3 News had of the rig. They're perched on the top of a ridge, kilometres into West Coast bush.

I confess to no knowledge of how long it should take to drill through 250m?

It just shouldn't have been on TV.

W. T. F. Why doesn't John Campbell fly in and take a dump on that woman's face — it would be more tasteful, and definitely kinder.

I saw on Twitter that this is going to be on the Media7 agenda this week. Please,?

Edit: Aah, I see you corrected it.

Matthew, that seems unduly harsh. People are concerned, frustrated and worried.

Well, yes. And as I've had occasion to snap at Brian Edwards, our frustration is soooo far from being pertinent it would be funny if the stakes weren't so high. Believe it or not, gratifying the media's voracious appetite?

I confess to no knowledge of how long it should take to drill through 250m of solid rock, but I can only imagine the location is a problem.

I have no idea either, but what Whittall said in this evening's presser suggests the rig does about 5 metres an hour?

It just shouldn't have been on TV.

Indeed not — the gentleman concerned obviously has a lot of issues with his former wife/partner, but they should have been left in the Family Court or a counsellor's office where they belong. Keep it classy, Three.

I cant believe that the only option for the rescue services is to ?wait?. Dont mining authorities have plans in place precisely for these sort of events? Surely the build-up of toxic gases is not an unexpected eventuality?

It's not toxic gases they're worried about. Those are easily dealt with,?

I suppose it should be noted, for anyone who missed the first segment of Campbell, that one of the miners? families is now asking for Knowles to be replaced.

On Campbell? Never too early for a witch hunt. Thanks TV3

Never too early for a witch hunt.

Why not just watch it before you comment?

Wouldn't it be ironic if NZ gets wiped out in a nuclear war, excepting the miners who miraculously survive and emerge blinking to the surface, only to find nobody else left alive.

Why not just watch it before you comment?

because I place more faith in a team of people who train for this sort of thing, who are actually there making difficult decisions and facing the trauma of possible consequences rather than the perpetually self-important likes of Campbell who faces no?

self-important likes of Campbell who faces no consequences for being a compete arsehole

Not quite true. He probably gets some kind of performance bonus for just that.

And in other news, North Korea is shelling South Korea.

And over 300 people died in a stampede in Cambodia. Now THAT is a crowd out of control, this business of saying what you ignorantly reckon on the internet has nothing on it. A curious parallel to something a formerly?

I can come up with one possible scenario explaining that. I?m a little puzzled?

Why not just watch it before you comment?

because I place more faith in a team of people who train for this sort of thing, who are actually there making difficult decisions and facing the trauma of possible consequences rather than the perpetually self-important likes of Campbell who faces no?

The spokesperson for?

There's already been the Fox?

Practically every rebuttal of ordinary caring?

When I said that even I could come up with a concept for a rescue vehicle which could move in a high methane atmosphere without raising the risk of explosion

James, there's no chance you're a physicist, is there?

If it can?t be done in reasonably guaranteed safety, leave it?