We are doomed.

It may not be true, but if it bloody well ought to be, well, that might do.

Truthiness...

She is our very own Sarah Palin.

OMG. I just said this in the other thread. I wasn't ripping you off, I swear!

I'd been thinking all afternoon that Paula Bennett must be NZ's answer to Sarah Palin

I can see your income from my PC.

Bennett is indignant at the suggestions she is allergic to heavy reports. ?It?s just ridiculous ? there is absolutely no truth in it whatsoever,? she says, rifling through a few reports on her desk.

?You need the information to make the big decisions at the end of the day. Here?s?

Paula Bennett is Ceiling Cat.

Not many people will understand that, but those who do will think it a very fine joke indeed.

Paula Bennett is Ceiling Cat.

Not many people will understand that...

I used Google to find out, but my excuse is I don't have a fleet of ministerial advisers to research important stuff for me.

(and yeah, ceiling cat, LOL).

Paula Bennett is Ceiling Cat.

I can has DPBzburger

"They're already getting a huge amount of support from the Government.

Bullshit. Is everyone aware that the government keeps child support payments, made by the liable, non-custodial parent that are supposedly for the children? In effect, the cost of the DPB is offset by?

She is our very own Sarah Palin.

I was wondering if in fact Paula Bennett and Christine Rankin were one and the same alien shapeshifter, but this is better.

But I hope – probably naively I know – that he was backing her in public, but actually putting a flea in her ear privately, telling her to stop making a fool of herself (even more...).

My son looking at her on Close Up tonight announced she was wearing a set of curtains

I look forward to reading your's sons teacher reports and medical records in the Herald tomorrow. It will "round out his story"

In reply to John Campbell's questioning tonight about her own use of the TIA to get a degree in the 1990s, she replied that it was much harder then, she had to start her own university creche.

This is what really annoyed me about her Close Up interview. She basically?

This whole episode and the recent budget just reinforce for me the contempt this government is showing for public education.

Apparently in reply to a question in parliament today the Minister of Education opened up the whole education system to potential privatisation.

And of course, since this is something that is open in law to compensation, they could getting their funding after all – just from an entirely?

Apparently in reply to a question in parliament today the Minister of Education opened up the whole education system to potential privatisation.

Fucking wonderful. 9 years of relative peace in the education sector allowing us to teach and now as I work towards retirement it all turns to shit.
On?

Apparently in reply to a question in parliament today the Minister of Education opened up the whole education system to potential privatisation.

So the privet sector is going to magic up plenty of teaching staff, after the present government has sent teachers training collages down the crappers.

Its also unusual?

What Uni did Paula go to?

Massey at Albany

"Criticise us and we'll release all your personal details... !"

Pretty scary actually. I'm divided over whether it's best for Bennett to stay as minister though – as it's almost guaranteed that she'll continue to do screw-ups like this.

What Uni did Paula go to? Our kids went to the most excellent one at Otago run by the Students Association from '87. What's the betting there was one, but is was not deemed 'suitable' by La Bennett who went freelance?

Paula was Massey-Albany President in the mid-90s.

I didn't?

It's a bit like climbing the social ladder – only to pull it up after reaching the top and pouring oil on the walls. And then telling those still down below, "You can climb up with your bare hands if you practice hard enough!"

...just before dropping a lit cigarette...?

Bennett is indignant at the suggestions she is allergic to heavy reports. ?It?s just ridiculous ? there is absolutely no truth in it whatsoever,? she says, rifling through a few reports on her desk.

?You need the information to make the big decisions at the end of the day. Here?s?

"We ask all other students to invest in their own future if they're going into tertiary study because it generally means they will make a higher income. Why are those on a benefit any different?

"They're already getting a huge amount of support from?

Surely the issue is the precedent that this sets.

"Criticise us and we'll release all your personal details... !"

Instead, she should stick to the traditional line where you deal to your critics by slandering them under parliamentary privilege.

With any luck, some lawyers willing to work for free will?

Well, Charles Chauvel is apparently laying a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner. I doubt anyone here is interested in what Marie Shroff would have to say, since Paula Bennett is presumed guilty no matter what, but it should be interesting reading all the same.

No Craig, I'm very interested and?

Paula Bennett is presumed guilty no matter what

Please do lay out the case for her innocence, by all means. I'm sure we all need a laugh.

Only just caught the conversation about this on t'other thread. Good stuff, interspersed with economic modelling, or yodelling, or somesuch.

Please do lay out the case for her innocence, by all means. I'm sure we all need a laugh.

Yeech... did I pass out and tread in some Kiwibog?

Now before you run accusing me of sexism (or something) let me elucidate my rationale:

– Views the world upside down
– Supported in that view by a very stupid man (Doh!)
– Supported a multinational burger joint (Krusty's, by?

Yeech... did I pass out and tread in some Kiwibog?

No, the relevant Kiwiblog thread is much, much nastier than that. Post after post. I don't recommend reading it.

No, the relevant Kiwiblog thread is much, much nastier than that.

Much, much nastier than Sacha's dissing of the token house monument to right-wing intellectual vanity? Golly.

After watching her performance in Question Time yesterday, I can certainly see why.

Geez, what was remotely nasty about that?

Sacha, you should know the drill by now – when your side looks dodgy, distract with a shiny thing. In this case it's the old standby: 'both leftwing and rightwing commentariat are equally horrid in a crisis'.

Except they're not, and you weren't,?

(Before the DIA come a knockin', that was not a Call To Arms.)

People can make a reasonable assessment of the women's position only if such information is in the public domain. They now know enough of their circumstances to draw a conclusion on whether they?

Minister right to give public all the facts

GAH!

You know, I think our side is probably in the minority on this issue. Which makes me sad. And kinda stabby.

Because that's what democracy is all about, right?

That, and when you get a chance to get yer grubby mitts on the levers of gummint, yer twiddle them to suit youse own pocket (and those of yer cohorts).
And hopefully create a larger underclass, thus creating a bigger target which?

A couple of questions

Did the Labour MPs use these two womens cases as a way to score political points rather than just two women criticising the system then being outed by a Minister

They were part of a group of women affected by the withdrawal of the TIA, who?

Motherfucker.

I assume next time he criticises a Labour government on climate change he will be happy for the minister to release all his emails over the previous twenty years in relation to his role as a?

And then used the words "teach them a lesson"....

Tell me that's not vindictive and inappropriate?

Yes, I am listening to Hooten – what a nasty little fucker he is.

I think he's up to half a dozen baseless accusations of lying now.

Nice to hear Kathryn Ryan tearing into him though. She said "bloody"!

Chris Trotter's final point – that there is strong class element in the right?

So, I am sure his intentions are good, what do?

Hooten, Bennett, and the rest of the right can barely disguise their contempt of beneficiaries.

I know the amount they're receiving isn't completely germane, but I do have to wonder why some people seem to think that $715 a week to feed, clothe and house a woman and three children?

1. It was nice to hear some opposition MPs calling for an apology, rather than the sack. When you call for the sacking of a minister too often people start turning a deaf ear.

2. It's also been nice to hear balance from journalists. "Bennett did this,?

What would they prefer, that those three children live in abject poverty so these smug pricks can feel better about 'their tax dollars'?

Welcome to the new Victorian class war, complete with their deserving and undeserving poor as defined by them.

I think they would prefer the smug joy of?

And Danielle, I don't think you need to apologise for the gender aspect of the Sarah Palin analogy (or was that on?

I think a huge part of the appeal of the Palins and Bennetts of the world is their exceptionalism.

That is a really good point.

We could do with more of both of these.

With all due respect Graeme, aren't you a little tired of "After nine... long... years..." and "When Labour was in power..."? I mean, really how long is a year? Isn't it National who should be accountable for their own?

No, the relevant Kiwiblog thread is much, much nastier than that. Post after post. I don't recommend reading it.

Wasn't planning to, but my poiint is that I don't bother participating in discussion there because when all you're going get is dismissed out of hand there's no point.

So, I?

I do have to wonder why some people seem to think that $715 a week to feed, clothe and house a woman and three children is some horrifyingly large payout

Two of whom apparently have serious medical conditions (from the HOS story). As I've said elsewhere, if everyone's benefit payments?

My ladybits and I, we feel extra valued under National. Oh yes.

And by "valued" you mean... yep, I know exactly what you mean.

I'd wager that another crucial part of the Palin/Bennett thing is their (conventional) attractiveness. A toothpaste beauty-queen smile can cover a multitude of sins. See also?

With all due respect Graeme, aren't you a little tired of "After nine... long... years..." and "When Labour was in power..."? I mean, really how long is a year? Isn't it National who should be accountable for their own actions now?

Fair enough, Sophie — after all, Labour's usual m.o.?

the most anti-women government we've seen in a while...

You forget canning any attempt whatsoever at pay equity.

Coming soon: A pay war with the teachers and nurses, both female dominated professions. They will be painted as selfish and/or lazy people sucking on the public teat when out there in?

While they were in opposition, it seems they spent most of their time get angrier and angrier watching & believing everything they saw on Fox News.

Oh, the irony...

Labour's usual m.o. was to get people like Trevor Mallard or Winston Peters to slander their enemies under privilege which isn't the same thing at all.

What's your point? That breaking the law is okay if the behaviour is similar to something else that's not illegal?

What's your point? That breaking the law is okay if the behaviour is similar to something else that's not illegal?

That I find it rather bemusing that Sophie apparently thinks it's now somehow dirty pool to point out that previous government's have acted in a similar way. Oh, and my?

Matthew Hooton just said on the radio that the women weren't "telling the truth" about their circumstances.

Motherfucker.

I haven't stopped being surprised that Hooton's taken seriously by anyone but how he got on National Radio is thoroughly perplexing. How's a fiercly partisan hack fit on any RNZ format?

By?

and the polytechs are being loosened-up for something too

The unis can't be far behind!

2. It's also been nice to hear balance from journalists. "Bennett did this, however, when Labour was in power their practice was to have ministerial staff leak the information instead of doing it openly." etc.

It would be useful to know of some actual cases in order to make a?

I think that since National appears to have adopted the comms strategy of the US Republican Party, they'll end up?

"teach them a lesson".

I'm sorry, is that what she actually, verbatim said?

My voting record is a rainbow and I tend to loathe all rosettes equally, but I can't see how anyone can support this action beyond simple partisan loyalty?

Well, if it's "partisan" to be slightly more interested in what Marie Shroff has to say (who was appointed to the Privacy?

I can't think of a single instance where a Labour or National Minister has leaked?

I haven't stopped being surprised that Hooton's taken seriously by anyone but how he got on National Radio is thoroughly perplexing. How's a fiercly partisan hack fit on any RNZ format?

Like Lila Haare or Chris Trotter aren't partisan?

excuse me if I roll my eyes at solo mothers becoming a new class of Angels of the Hearth

Hugely unlikely reach there, Craig.

"teach them a lesson".

I'm sorry, is that what she actually, verbatim said?

I don't have time to go back through the Close Up interview right now, but I think so, yes.

excuse me if I roll my eyes at solo mothers becoming a new class of Angels of the Hearth

Given – but please do accept my (in this case well informed) opinion that cutting the TIA was a bad thing.

With all due respect Graeme, aren't you a little tired of "After nine... long... years..." and "When Labour was in power..."? I mean, really how long is a year? Isn't it National who should be accountable for their own actions now?

Which is exactly why I didn't use it like?

What DOES happen is that press secs and Ministers confide to journalists off the record about specific cases in order to infuence their coverage, but they that's very different from explicitly leaking the information and having it made publically available.

That's what I meant. Providing confidential information in confidence?

excuse me if I roll my eyes at solo mothers becoming a new class of Angels of the Hearth.

Roll them all the way back around to the front, dude. Like Danielle said, you're Evil Knievel revving up to jump the Grand Canyon there.

"Not demonising" doesn't equal "canonising" except?

I don't have time to go back through the Close Up interview right now, but I think so, yes.

Again... have not checked, but that is my distinct recollection... I immediately asked my wife "Did she just say 'teach them a lesson'?"

With all due respect Graeme, aren't you a little tired of "After nine... long... years..." and "When Labour was in power..."? I mean, really how long is a year? Isn't it National who should be accountable for their own actions now?

What Graeme said: I thought the context that the?

Yesterday, John Campbell asked her about the advice on the Privacy Act that she took before releasing the women's details:

JC: "Where did you get that advice from? Did?

I suppose it's a bit of a lesson for what happens when you go out there and put your story and put what you, you know, perceive to be for everyone the full information that sometimes they do.

Sorry, wait, is that a sentence?

I think we need William Shatner?

It was good journalism.

I wouldn't say that. Sainsbury never asked her for the legal justification for her action, and Campbell just let it drop when she said – surprise, surprise – that she "[didn't] have it in front of [her]."

Jolisa,
It was Snake River Canyon. :)

Sorry, wait, is that a sentence?

In her defence, I'm sure you'd have trouble forming a coherent sentence after 5 minutes of talking to Mark Sainsbury... and such like.

(See here, in case you've been under a web-rock this morning.)

Ha, I sure have been – that's grand

Sorry, wait, is that a sentence?

It has a verb. That's enough for me.

Shades of grey, but I disagree. If a staffer in a Labour government gives a journalist confidential information for a story then yeah, that's leaking – but I can't remember this ever happening with people's individual records. Happy to be?

It was good journalism.

I wouldn't say that. Sainsbury never asked her for the legal justification for her action, and Campbell just let it drop.

I was talking about the news. Not the current affairs follow up.

Shatner does Palin

Oh, God, I'm coughing my lungs up with laughter.

It was Snake River Canyon. :)

Gah – and it's Evel, not Evil. I stand (astride my throbbing stunt motorbike) corrected.

Actually, no, I'm scrabbling in the lingerie drawer for a new corset, having bust the old one watching Shatner do Palin. OMFG. Thank you Danielle!

" I suppose it's a bit of a lesson for what happens when you go out there "

Well, it looks like?

Given that journalists may only know of the practice from personal experience (having been confided in with personal information relating to a particular story) it may be difficult to find good example they could use with their obligations of confidence.

The failure to disclose that the information in a story?

Personally, I do think Bennett didn't have to go anywhere near as far as she did, and if she's found to have breeched the Privacy Act then I'd probably sack her. But pardon me if I find the Muldoon in drag analogies rather hard to take very seriously.

I'd've been?

The fact that Burgess and his wife owned two other properties and the fact that Burgess wouldn't have been a story had not Phil Goff touted him to the press are both relevant.

Also that information is something any journalist could have got in about 5 minutes, from public sources.?

She resigned for lying about it, not for the disclosure itself.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Bennett gave two versions of the story yesterday: one to Parliament, and a different one to TV3.

In fact the only reason she could have had for doing it was to bolster the argument that those whining women?

The "Three Great Premises" of New Zealand?s current political culture; First; "Any theory is valid if it is politically expedient to promote it. Second, "Anything can be true if someone says it loudly enough." Third, "Fact is that which enough?

Move over 'Crusher' Collins, here comes Paula 'The Googler' Bennett

Wasn't planning to, but my poiint is that I don't bother participating in discussion there because when all you're going get is dismissed out of hand there's no point.

In a public forum like that, while you may not change the?

Key can't sack Bennett for this, having stood up for her in public. He'll be praying the Commissioner finds there was no fault.

Speaking of which, I suggest adding this to anything you send to her:

this communication should not be interpreted as consent, either express or implied, to any disclosure of personal information held by MSD or?

I suppose it's a bit of a lesson for what happens when you go out there and put your story and put what you, you know, perceive to be for everyone the full information that sometimes they do.

– Paula Benefit

Look , the full information actually does nothing to?

---

A note to Paula Bennett, her cabinet colleagues, and their staff

In this blog it is likely that, from time to time, the authors and commenters will criticise government policy, speeches, and political tactics.

We would like to reassert that this is neither explicit nor?

Between this and the policy of kicking out pregnant women on student visas, this is shaping up to be the most anti-women government we've seen in a while...

Not quite sure if you can blame National for the policies behind the immigration thing, but they weren't exactly leaping to the?

Look , the full information actually does nothing to make the mothers' case any less real or or any less justified.

This, oh lord this. So it clearly wasn't to fairly "round out the story" as it added nothing to the story.

3410: interesting. It's the page everyone was pointing at yesterday, containing guidelines for Ministers and apparently consulted by Bennett. There's a cached version here.

Someone needs to find the answer to that. Might just be 'the internet', but if its been taken down, who did it and why?

Someone needs to find the answer to that. Might just be 'the internet', but if its been taken down, who did it and why?

Indeed. There is now a new page which is similar but not the same as yesterday's version.

Can we work out the differences other than manually?

Someone needs to find the answer to that. Might just be 'the internet', but if its been taken down, who did it and why?

It's not the internet. The page request gets a response — it just says the page ain't there any more. The page has been removed.

Can we work out the differences other than manually checking?

Word track changes compare documents.

Which says there is no difference between the two.

Which says there is no difference between the two

Well, it has a new address, which is one difference. If that's all, then good.

I've sent an email to the contact address asking about it but I imagine they're not taking many calls.

I've sent an email to the contact address asking about it

Ditto.

Which says there is no difference between the two.

I only compared the header and main body of text, not menus etc around the outside.

Another reason kids persecute nerds is to make themselves feel better. When you tread water, you lift yourself up by pushing water down. Likewise, in any social hierarchy, people unsure of their own position will?

"Fact is that which enough people believe. Truth is measured by how fervently they believe it."

"The media" spends an awful lot of time and effort reporting on what people believe to be true. Example, a recent headline in?

Chris Trotter's final point – that there is strong class element in the right wing attacks on these women – is 100% true.

I've long felt that many of the "isms" that various government bodies are set up to protect us against – racism, sexism, even ageism to some extent?

At least English class is based on centuries of who one's pater was, what school they went to, etc. In NZ it's based on nothing more than "I've got a big income", which is often as much about luck as it is hard work and intelligence.

That's an interest contrast?

The technology is playing tricks I'm afraid. There have not been changes in the content of the checklist today.

We simply moved the location of the checklist from its incorrect spot under "speeches", to the correct place under "guidance material".

The capitalisation issue that?

What is clear is that despite the supposedly newer, softer, gentler face of National on welfare, nothing can mask the seething resentment that remains skin-deep among the public against beneficiaries.

It was less obvious in the period of near full-employment that accompanied sustained economic growth?

So: people on a benefit (looks like anything that isn't Unemployment benefit) can apply for a student loan to cover fees and course costs. This still applies if they're studying part-time.

If they get a TIA,?

I assume, given they and others

..that is, the two women at the heart of the controversy.

She also writes that it appears from her answers to Annette King that Bennett has a computer in her office from which her welfare officials can access beneficiary files, thus enabling her to get the information without going through the chief executive.

Why on earth would she want/need this? Why?

Why on earth would she want/need this?

To deal with frequent requests from other MPs that they investigate the case of some constituent or another.

There's a legitimate purpose for MSD staffers in her office having access. The problem is that when the Minister demands information, it may not always?

To deal with frequent requests from other MPs that they investigate the case of some constituent or another.

Ok I/S, I can see something in that and I've not worked in a Minister's Office. I will say however, that I work for an public training provider supporting 500,000 enrolments per?

The problem is that when the Minister demands information, it may not always be clear what it is to be used for, and it may be very difficult for a seconded public servant to refuse an improper and abusive request.

It'd be one ballsy private secretary who refused to provide?

Example, a recent headline in the UK stating that 58% of the population "believe" UK troops are dieing because they are ill-equiped.

I take your point, but this is not a good example. The generally shitty state of equipment and the equipment procurement processes in the UK armed forces has?

I think the separation between operational responsibilities and policy ones is important.

As do I. And we might just get such a system as a result of Bennett's abuse.

(The other alternative is to keep access within the office, but impose a reporting requirement, requiring the Minister to say in?

nothing can mask the seething resentment that remains skin-deep among the public against beneficiaries.

Interesting..
Somehow I dont think this is any kind of unique phenomenon.
Lets play...

Nothing can mask the seething resentment that remains skin-deep among the citizens against the indigenous.

or (think back in time, or different?

The Standard has even managed to find a Weatherston angle to the story.?

It doesn't legitimise using private data to attack political opponents. But if that *is* fair game, can I put an OIA request in for John Key's tax return?

Of course you can.

Not only that, but there's nothing in the Privacy Act will stop them releasing it to you.

So, is having the right parents a matter of luck, or hard work and intelligence?

I can't speak for you, but in my case it's entirely down to their impeccable good taste ;-P

@ DeepRed

You can easily come across millionaire yobbos, as well as cosmopolitan bohemians living on?

Of course you can.

Not only that, but there's nothing in the Privacy Act will stop them releasing it to you.

Yes, but I can't imagine any Dept releasing that, given that privacy is a ground for withholding under section 9(2)(a) of the OIA.

It doesn't legitimise using private data to attack political opponents. But if that *is* fair game, can I put an OIA request in for John Key's tax return?

Of course you can.

Not only that, but there's nothing in the Privacy Act will stop them releasing it to you.

Yes,?

Yes I saw that too.I am glad JC said it was stingy in light of the private schools getting 35 mil, and this was only 2.5 to keep the status quo and only 33 mil to bring all other schools in line with these about to be cut.

It certainly?

But, if true, we're not talking about *requests* at all, but instead a kind of unlimited access with no record of it, which is, IMO, open to abuse.

My understanding is that the MSD database logs all queries and leaves an audit trail.

The usual way for a Minister to?

I think Part 4 (2281 to 89) of the Tax Administration Act 1994 trumps the Privacy Act and the Official Information Act. It sets out the extremely limited circumstances in which tax information may be release, to whom and for what reason.

And is in turn trumped by s48 of?

My understanding is that the MSD database logs all queries and leaves an audit trail.

Well, that's something.

It certainly shows the government's priorities, doesn't it? Money for the rich, but not for those in genuine need...

Because everyone who attends a private school is a dirty rich prick, right Idiot?

Serious question here: So it would have been better if someone in her office had just happened to pass it around the Press Gallery, on a non-attributable basis of course?

No of course not. I think a simple "not all of the information is in the public domain" line from?

National WILL NOT support Matariki as a public holiday.

Riiight.

We've got you lot sussed.

Again.

Because everyone who attends a private school is a dirty rich prick, right Idiot?

No, not at all. Any hardworking, ambitious New Zealander should be able to come up with $30,000 pa for something so important.