Put the stuff in Coca Cola. It's consumed in vast quantities. Young people seem to subsist on it.

Coca Cola? Wot, is this the 1950s, Gramps?

The beverages of choice I see young 'uns drinking around Wellington Station every morning are hot chocolate for the girls and cheap energy drinks?

The only way this will work is if the nation consumes sufficient bread to compound its obesity problem.

Why have chosen to simply regurgitate a press release from the opponents of this, Mr. Slack?

The "eleven slice" number assumes that you eat nothing else but bread to get your dose?

"In adult life folate deficiency has been known for decades to produce a characteristic form of anaemia ("megaloblastic"). More recently degrees of folate inadequacy, not severe enough to produce?

At least?

'Cos vitamins are always good for you, right?

How do you get folate in your diet normally?

lots of green veges

speaking of mass vaccinations...

The government recently announced they would fund the seasonal 'flu vaccine for all NZers now. I have already had it. I spoke to a nurse friend about?

I mean, I support vaccination programmes, and I supported the last Government's efforts to restrict unhealthy foods in schools... but compulsorily putting something in a staple like bread makes me go "hmmm".

Then again there's already iodine?

At least some links to the science would be good.

I've appended them to the post.

Why have chosen to simply regurgitate a press release from the opponents of this, Mr. Slack?
The "eleven slice" number assumes that you eat nothing else but bread to get your dose of vitamin B9.

Fair enough, but it seems to me nonetheless that if you want to bring home?

Thick slices? Thin slices? Baguette slices? Hamburger bun slices??

What are the limits of the 'freedom of choice' case?

The limits are that as the FSANZ points out, it hasn't really worked. People who need it (actually, the mothers of?

what gives us a healthy start to life: understanding how a baby?s environment between conception and birth determines its childhood development and life-long health – and the impact that this knowledge has for individuals and whole?

I expect everyone seriously objecting to?

Also, the thing about 11 slices – someone read Chip and Dave Heath's book "Made to Stick" on that one – , but if you're?

Tom, Katherine Rich has been the head of that organisation since shortly after she left politics. Is that really the best you've got?

Well, I sure thought the crack about "the acceptable face of allowing greater spina bifida" was a particularly nasty and cheap attack of Helen Lovejoy-ism.

All good, then, just so long as you eat eleven – count them, eleven slices – of bread each day. As we all do.

As people have pointed out, folate acid doesn't just come from bread. And I presume even if you don't eat the recommended amount, you still get?

I'm curious how many people up and arms about this happily buy vitamin-fortified cereals? And wasn't "and folic acid for reproduction" a selling point once upon a time?

That was the ad campaign for Complan maybe 15-20 years ago.

Given that a lot of "nanny-state" measures like eco-bulbs had connections?

Even if they have other sources, it sounds to me as though it's still likely that the women for whom it's intended will get insufficient by this means.

So your logic is because we can't put as much in as we should we should put none in?

Or

Because we?

So your logic is because we can't put as much in as we should we should put none in?

No. My logic is: does this work? If not, what might?

Anyone out there want to have a crack at putting the opposing view? I really, really don't want to go to looking for it on kiwiblog...

So why do you say this doesn't work? Canada and the US seem to have implemented (albeit at the flour level) a successful food supplement program that people seem to think has worked.

I'm not sure I understand why supplementing a common food product with a vitamin that has?

Then again there's already iodine in salt, as David pointed out

The curious thing is, down the line, an artisan baker somewhere will advertise their bread as "no folic acid added" (analogy here – unpasteurised cheeses.)

Not quite the same though is it, you can still buy non-iodised salt if?

So why do you say this doesn't work? Canada and the US seem to have implemented (albeit at the flour level) a successful food supplement program that people seem to think has worked.

I'm not asserting that it doesn't work, I'm asking if it does or not, because it seems?

Its all a load of Folics

Nice.

Especially if NZ finds itself at the receiving end of America's Waxman-Markey Act.

Given that National has gone from climate change denial to denying it can do anything about climate change, it is a matter of "when" not "if".

As for Katherine Rich, she just goes to show every Tory?

I wonder how many lunches My Key has had with the manufacturers of B9 pills that are at the moment sold to all pregnant and planning women. A public health initiative like this would cut into their profits something awful.

Not necessarily, you'd still need to supplement if you were?

It interests me that in a world where you could probably get a majority of people to support a total ban on alcohol consumption among pregnant women, the instant that measures to improve babies' health could fall on the shoulders of everyone else, there's an uproar

If the analogy was?

There's a gender element to the debate that's very obvious over there.

Not just that debate

"Do you support the requirement for folic acid to be added to bread to reduce the risk of birth defects?"

with a choice of voting 'yes' or 'no'

last look saw 9% saying yes.

I understand they'll have to change the labeling, is that all this is about (from their end) – just think that can include "with added vitamins"

Its all a load of Folics

Nanny state telling teachers how to teach reading now?

Congrats to the PR bod who came up with "eleven slices", now a compulsory part of the catechism, like plasma TVs in prison and hip-hop tours. Not ten. Not twelve. Too even, too round. Eleven it is, and ever shall be

OT but related to this earlier comment...why did nobody?

current poll question at Kiwiblog
"Do you support the requirement for folic acid to be added to bread to reduce the risk of birth defects?"
with a choice of voting 'yes' or 'no'
last look saw 9% saying yes.

I can't help thinking that those Kiwiblog readers may be a?

If the analogy was the same you'd have to ban all alcohol consumption by everyone to stop pregnant women drinking.

I think the analogy has a mid-point. When my partner was pregnant I stopped drinking (and we stopped doing some drinking type activities) in part to support her and make?

Current Government advice is based on latest study showing no increased risk.

Rumours are organic?

Does the target demographic eat bread? Hence my RTD suggestion.

If it helps there's plenty of folate in beer....

If it helps there's plenty of folate in beer....

Have a guiness.Very good for you.

ii) I can't get over how strange this dabate is – get vitamin B9 for free in?

Urban legend has it that goitre is spreading like wildfire amongst the households of Khandallah and Remuera, who have switched from Cerebos to Maldon.?

Those others are aborted, when its detected. For some no big deal , for others to have an abortion may be a terrible experience

Not always. If you're late having your scan, you may be too far along to abort. And then, while you're mulling over whether you're going to?

Not surprising really NZ journalism and blogging must surely count as some of the?

Please, please give us some reporting, or failing that, how about some fucking information!

Rob.

LInky yourself .Offered by others and updated for the piece ages ago. Also who said this was reporting? Sorry but this folic acid issue has been in the arena for some time now so surely?

Is it only me

yes.

pls see Sophie's comment above.

Please, please give us some reporting, or failing that, how about some fucking information!

Wooo who pushed your angry button Rob? This is a forum for discussion and of course the odd wry observations. Where does it say anything about journalism? Links to sites and information from informed commentators are?

I do occasionally offer reporting in this forum. I'll give it a crack again soon. But the more intriguing one is this:

An innocuous wet grape piece of coverage that a schoolgirl could have written.

That's a new form to me. 'Innocuous' and 'schoolgirl'?

Is it only me or does this piece of journalism seem like an almost incoherrant ramble

You're sounding pretty incoherrant yourself. Although I must admit I quite like the idea of bafoonery.

Although I must admit I quite like the idea of bafoonery.

The bafoon is an over-rated instrument of limited range. Better to take up the strumpet.

The bafoon is an over-rated instrument of limited range. Better to take up the strumpet.

If you can't find a strumpet you can always try a solo on the pink oboe.

I blame the Masons and they won't be adding their witchcraft into anything in Fiji.

NZ Mason jailed over sorcery claims
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10584756

wet grape

I'm intrigued. This feels like a compliment out of context. Who likes dry grapes? Ah HA! Raisins! So it's the opposite of a raisin piece. Which may be an elaborate play on raison d'etre. So... this post... is... not a reason for being?

Still intrigued.

Russell, aparently, has a "Bread Awesomizer" thus allowing him to add his own Folate from a jar.

Marmite?

Marmite?

Haven't checked Marmite but Vegemite contains 50% of your daily needs of vit B9 per serving.
Apparently.
;-)

I don't mind if they put folate in my bread but who asked permission to put palm oil in my chocolate?

I see that Cadbury have taken it upon themselves to put a full-page ad in the Herald, talking about how the smaller bars are for the good of consumers?

(Quietly) How much, Steve?

100?g per serving based on a 5g serving equivelent to 2000?g per 100 gms.
Or so it says, in really really tiny tiny print on the jar.
(had to get a magnifying glass 'cos my glasses just ain't that strong.)

The most dangerous thing about?

The most dangerous thing about Marmite is probably the caramel additive it contains.

Unless you have haemochromatosis, in which case it'd be the iron...

(So glad you clarified that it isn't the taste of marmite & vegemite that are the same – that really would've been the thread that wouldn't die...)?

(So glad you clarified that it isn't the taste of marmite & vegemite that are the same – that really would've been the thread that wouldn't die...)

Restrain. Must. Not. Gaaah!

the taste of marmite & vegemite

I'm Vegemite only. I use Marmite to lube my bike chain.

Wilkinson, who does not eat bread because she is gluten intolerant, said in a statement she was aware of Rodney Hide's concerns.

Practically every Western Country fortifies it bread in this way, including the home of freedom and the conspiracy theory the United States.

High on my list of things that NZ should not aspire to is having bread like the US.

Quality issues aside, I'd be inclined to ask whether there's?

High on my list of things that NZ should not aspire to is having bread like the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWvTqLQzz7o&e

I'd be inclined to ask whether there's any record that homework has really been done on the rate of bread-eating among women in the fertile age range. Because if I had to guess, I'd estimate it as: pretty low.

Not sure of the relative merits, but it certainly worked in?

My top pick for a fortification candidate would probably be coffee.

The number one blurgifier for morning sickness-suffering pregnant women, in my experience anyway.

(Do this, do that, do the other. It's as if no one was born before pregnancy vitamin supplements and lists of prohibited foods. My mother tells hair-raising tales of her gynecologist chainsmoking across?

[coffee is] The number one blurgifier for morning sickness-suffering pregnant women, in my experience anyway.

Hm.

What about fortifying coffee plus whatever people take when they are blurgified? (peppermint lifesavers? or is that just me?)

Once people recognized that they had morning sickness and didn't just feel generally barfy, they?

What about fortifying coffee?

Because pregnant women need to be careful of their caffeine intake? :)

Because pregnant women need to be careful of their caffeine intake? :)

But we're specifically talking about supplementation that needs to start before conception and continue through the early period in which pregnancy may not yet be identified. Coffee drinkers will be, well, drinking coffee.

There could be a better?

Has anyone seen any statistics regarding the incidence of the neural-tube defects we are hoping to prevent? Is it a sizeable enough incidence to warrant wholesale management of the population's diet?
(I can understand?

There's your instant, your big brand beans, your little independent roasters and your direct-from-Cuba importers – how do each of these groups comply with a standard?

I can't imagine adding folic acid to coffee beans (which is how a fair bit of coffee is purchased) is practical.

Also I suspect?

What I haven't heard in this whole folic acid debate, are the voices of anyone with spina bifida. Who are we (general public, policy people, politicians etc) to judge their right to exist, and make assumptions about their quality of life?

I really don't follow your point about "judging their?

As an aside, from the info in the link?

There are plenty of examples of things that were beyond the abilities of our forebears to avoid – rickets, goitre, smallpox etc, that we've been able to reduce in the last hundred years. It's a?

fortification of bread will deliver a mean increase in folic acid intake in the target
population of 101 ?g and 140 ?g in Australia and New Zealand respectively, resulting
in an estimated reduction of between 14-49 out of 300-350 pregnancies in Australia and
4-14 out of 70-75 pregnancies in New?

I expected fortification to be more effective because they are expecting everyone who eats bread to be happy with extra folate, when it positively affects a tiny minority. Why not just identify "at-risk" women and ensure they get plenty?

By cost/benefit, I mean the costs to bakers (and therefore consumers) of mandatory fortification over the cost of the ongoing support and healthcare of the NTD-affected children who, with?

Why not just identify "at-risk" women and ensure they get plenty of folate?

How? I can't think of any effective way to get more folate into the vast majority of women of child-bearing age, without putting it in some common food that we're all going to eat.

What I was saying is that there are probably many people with spina bifida (and I know of adults with?

I truly loathe 'mass medication' – e.g. I dont like fluoride in the main water supplies; I resist iodised salt, and I can get quite enough B9 should I want some-and I?

I very much believe that parents should be able to make informed decisions about such things

I totally agree – and that means informed about the whole picture not a narrow slice of it. It means hearing from families and disabled adults about what life has been and is like?

hearing from families and disabled adults about what life has been and is like for them

in regards to transitory?

We can partition the population of women in the fertile age range into two groups: those who are trying for or open to pregnancy, and those who are not.

The first group can be directly provided with prenatal vitamins.?

A survey? Who wants to answer a government-run survey on their chances of getting pregnant? How much more intrusive is that than general fortification? How likely is it to generate accurate results, and what's the turnout likely to be?

Take the latest citizens' initiated referendum as a benchmark?

It sounds like the herediary aspect would account for a greater percentage than the?

Mandatory folate fortification doesn't deliver enough folate to achieve the full effect (because if the level was raised to full protection, there would be more people getting more than the Upper Tolerable Limit, beyond which it can mask B12?

Any improvement is obviously a good thing but I?

last time I checked was about $15 for three months' worth, so $60 per year per woman

You're clearly considering non-PHARMAC prices ;)
If they can get paracetamol tablets for under a cent each, I think they'd be able to get a reasonable bulk deal on whatever vitamins they wanted.

It was only because I fossicked around deep in?

in regards to transitory debates like this – how can the path between the journo asking the questions and someone putting their head above the parapet to answer?

Kerry, I wasn't really talking about journos when the story pops up like this. Good point though.

Our publicly funded health system?

investing in genuine and ongoing informed consent, which would provide some grounding when?

Amy, how?

What do you mean, how? You go to your doctor or pharmacy and say "give me vitamins, please".

What do you mean, how? You go to your doctor or pharmacy and say "give me vitamins, please".

That's pretty much what you do now, with the additional step of handing over a few dollars. The point of the whole exercise is that it doesn't occur to enough people to?

informed consent for what exactly?

Kerry, I hope your flu is getting better. We were talking about a health intervention, not media, so I meant the informed consent that is supposed to be part of every health or disability service experience, as defined in the Health and Disability Code (see?

Health and Disability Code (see especially Rights 5, 6 and 7).

Informed choice is great, but choice without information is pointless.

Totally agree.

Don't know how I honestly feel about this issue,( never stopped me before so...) but I was wondering why cant we set up a study to prove/disprove?