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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: 14 Pages of Democracy</title>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244256#post244256</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244256#post244256</guid>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:48:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244257#post244257</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244257#post244257</guid>
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						Judge Adams's initial decision, noting how the vote count changed is less cool, but <a href="https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7BFW6G1kSfCMDY1M2RkZjgtODI0Yi00OWYxLWFhY2MtNTQzNWE2NWFmNWQ2" target="_blank">is here</a> for all you completists :0)
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:48:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Deborah</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244259#post244259</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244259#post244259</guid>
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						Very good!  It is a joy to see just how much care has been taken in trying to work out and respect voters' intentions.  The contrast with the hanging chads episode is remarkable.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:12:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244260#post244260</link>
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						<p>Heh.</p><p>"My favourite was the voter who emphasised their tick for Carmel Sepuloni by drawing a little orange heart in the rectangle containing her name."</p><p>What a very human and readable judgement &ndash; they're not all like that, not by a wide margin. </p><p>Edit: Actually, that was fun to read?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:14:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>izogi</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244262#post244262</link>
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						<p>Thanks Graeme, interesting read.  Paragraph 15 caught my attention:</p><p><q>One table is dealing with a very small polling place. Within the first half-hour I discover that seven votes had been miscounted in the official count as Sepuloni votes when there should have been three to Bennett, three to Tolleestrup (Green),?</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:01:28 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Dave Guerin</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244263#post244263</link>
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						Ta &ndash; a very good read
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:02:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244265#post244265</link>
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						<p><q>Aren't there meant to be party scrutineers during the counts to catch this sort of thing, or does that not always happen at the smaller polling places?</q></p><p>There were no scrutineers present for the count at our quite-sizeable polling booth.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:19:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244267#post244267</link>
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						<p><q>I took an implication from that that there may have been some malice/corruption during the original count on the part of those doing the counting, which is very disappointing if true</q></p><p>I didn't take that implication. Cock-up is a much easier explanation than conspiracy.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:21:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Che Tibby</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244272#post244272</link>
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						+1 occams razor there lemming
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:44:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Craig Ranapia</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244273#post244273</link>
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						<p><q>Aren?t there meant to be party scrutineers during the counts to catch this sort of thing, or does that not always happen at the smaller polling places?</q></p><p>The latter, because they are volunteers after all and it?s simply fanciful to presume any party can supply scrutineers for every booth.  I?d?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:52:08 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244278#post244278</link>
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						<p><q>The latter, because they are volunteers after all and it?s simply fanciful to presume any party can supply scrutineers for every booth. I?d also point out that scrutineers are just that ? they?re severely (and properly) restricted in how they can respond to situations like that.</q></p><p>The vote-counting in the?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:44:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Maud Cahill</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244279#post244279</link>
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						Reading [21] of this decision worries me. I made a special vote, voting in advance in my own electorate but was not required to make a declaration, or sign anything. I noted this because last election I remember making a declaration.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:45:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244282#post244282</link>
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						<p><q> The contrast with the hanging chads episode is remarkable.</q></p><p>The thought of looking through the back of a voting paper with it held up to the light doesn't seem to you to be the New Zealand equivalent of the famous photo of the Florida election official holding up a ballot?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:52:11 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244283#post244283</link>
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						That looks scarily like David Farrar on a bad day ;-)
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:00:16 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244284#post244284</link>
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						<p>Maud, if you made an 'advance vote' in 2008 and 2011, then in 2008 you had to make a declaration, but not so in 2011.</p><p>An advance vote was as of right in 2011.</p><p>Somewhat different from a special declaration vote.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:01:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244285#post244285</link>
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						<p>I am grateful to Judge Adams for the detail he has gone into in his decisions. Very very useful. </p><p>Will be reading and inwardly digesting over the next day.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:03:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Grant McDougall</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244286#post244286</link>
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						<p>The prospect of Labour underr-taking an electoratal petition against Bennett was discussed on RNZ this afternoon and someone made two interesting observations.</p><p>One was that it'll cost an estimated $100,000; Labour isn't cash-rich at present and if Bennett wins, it'll just be money down the drain.</p><p>The other was that?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:03:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ross Mason</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244287#post244287</link>
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						<p>[2.]  "The right to vote is a precious right. Every voter who has been issued with a voting paper wields the same voting power as any other voter."</p><p>Civics 101.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:04:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Islander</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244288#post244288</link>
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						<p>So, where the fuck were the other million of us?<br />Squatting at home, becoming further &amp; further uninvolved?<br />THIS is the part I cannot understand-</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:11:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Conrad Lake</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244289#post244289</link>
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						<p>Interesting reading.. If only most of second year law read like that. Instead they were tedious readings of court cases, many of whom were very good at disengaging oneself.</p><p>If Labour did decide to do an election petition I suspect the chances of Labour being successful is very very minimal.?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:16:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244292#post244292</link>
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						<p><strong>The vulgar vote men...</strong><br /><q>Aren't there meant to be party scrutineers during the counts to catch this sort of thing, or does that not always happen at the smaller polling places?</q><br />I just read a great article on LBJ's 1948 election in Texas ( <em>New Yorker, Jan 29, 1990</em> )?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:27:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Christopher Nimmo</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244294#post244294</link>
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						[52] seems like a really strange decision to me. I could see his point if the pens were black/blue... but orange is just such a perfect colour for highlighting!
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:33:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244295#post244295</link>
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						<p><q>It?s also been observed that if Labour won, it?d only have a short-term effect anyway as Bennett would be next cab off the rank when Lockwood Smith high-tails it to London.</q></p><p>1. The bigger effect is not that Bennett is out of Parliament, but that the government's strength will drop?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:37:38 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ross Mason</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244296#post244296</link>
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						<p>They did not pass Civics 101. He does mention a need for voter education.</p><p>It is illuminating to read a plain english law document. Judge got down to the nitty gritty and in the vernacular. </p><p>That unsung hero: "The reasonable man".</p><p>Whoever invented the special voting procedure that ensures anonymity?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:37:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Joshua Grainger</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244297#post244297</link>
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						Interesting. I don't suppose a judgement is available for the Christchurch Central recount?
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:38:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244299#post244299</link>
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						<p><q>Interesting. I don?t suppose a judgement is available for the Christchurch Central recount?</q></p><p>I've never known of a recount judgment before. I kinda get the feeling that Judge Adams just really liked his involvement in the process and wanted to share it with the world. I love how you can?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:48:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Brendon Steen</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244302#post244302</link>
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						This was a delight to read. Thank you very much for posting.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:09:15 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Pete Sime</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244307#post244307</link>
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						I think Judge Adams must have gone to the Lord Denning School of Judicial Writing.
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				<pubDate>Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:50:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>DeepRed</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244308#post244308</link>
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						<p><q>So, where the fuck were the other million of us?<br />Squatting at home, becoming further &amp; further uninvolved?<br />THIS is the part I cannot understand-</q></p><p>If they weren't too apathetic to vote, then I suspect they were too disillusioned to vote.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 00:34:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>webweaver</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244315#post244315</link>
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						<p>Gosh what a wonderful piece of writing. I love [6] &ndash; it's the start of a novel! </p><p>How lovely to know we have people like Judge Adams overseeing stuff like this that really matters &ndash; cos you can tell they really do give a damn.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 02:36:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Semmens</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244317#post244317</link>
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						<p><q>??[7] Stacked against two walls, more than 60 cardboard boxes await our attention. <br />They contain all the ballot papers for Waitakere in this election. Each box represents??</q></p><p>Surely we don?t need more evidence that electronic voting is a corporate profit making solution looking for a voting problem that doesn?t exist.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 06:43:36 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>ChrisW</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244318#post244318</link>
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						<p><q>[52] seems like a really strange decision to me. I could see his point if the pens were black/blue... but orange is just such a perfect colour for highlighting!</q><br />Good point &ndash; I think providing felt pens with rather transparent orange ink is taking their electoral branding to unnecessary lengths?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 06:55:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lucy Stewart</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244319#post244319</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244319#post244319</guid>
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						<p>[42] kind of epitomises the National Party's approach to crime ("We have no evidence anyone is thinking about breaking in and interfering with the ballot papers, and it's never happened before, BUT IT MIGHT!"). I particularly liked Judge Adams' judgement that the police had better things to do. </p><p>[49] was?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 07:08:25 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244324#post244324</link>
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						<p><q> <em>Interesting. I don?t suppose a judgement is available for the Christchurch Central recount?</em></p><p>I?ve never known of a recount judgment before.</q></p><p>Which I realise now isn't entirely accurate, because Judge Adams himself references one :-)</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 07:38:46 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Craig Ranapia</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244329#post244329</link>
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						<p><q>The other was that doing so would make Labour look bad to the public; they should quit whining about the result, take it on the chin and stop being sore losers.</q></p><p>Well, yeah... which is why most close results (Tauranga in '99 comes to mind) don't escalate to electoral petitions.?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 08:25:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244335#post244335</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244335#post244335</guid>
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						<p>Thanks for that Graeme<br />It is really interesting to get an inside view of the thinking on the tricky votes or rather how people don't take instructions seriously<br />The votes that interest me are the so called "take-away votes" real room for skulduggery there <br /> I think the law should be?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:06:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Craig Ranapia</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244340#post244340</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244340#post244340</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>The votes that interest me are the so called ?take-away votes? real room for skulduggery there<br />I think the law should be tightened up there</q></p><p>I'd agree with you there, on principle.  At the same time, I'm sure we don't want to rest home residents and folks in hospital on?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:28:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Richard Aston</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244343#post244343</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244343#post244343</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>So, where the fuck were the other million of us?<br />Squatting at home, becoming further &amp; further uninvolved?<br />THIS is the part I cannot understand-</q></p><p>Good point Islander &ndash; Graeme thanks for this its reassuring to read how carefully and considered the recount process was but taking Islander thought one step?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:45:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lucy Stewart</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244349#post244349</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244349#post244349</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>In the end, you've got to start with the presumption that people aren't utter, wretched douchebags and try and find the balance from there.</q></p><p>And the results, when closely examined, would appear to suggest that this is basically a valid assumption. You can quibble about the odd vote here and?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:06:58 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244352#post244352</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244352#post244352</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>The votes that interest me are the so called "take-away votes" real room for skulduggery there </q></p><p>In theory perhaps, but in practice I believe the system is robust. </p><p>I picked up a takeaway vote on the day for my wife, who was unable to walk any distance. I had to?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:14:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244359#post244359</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244359#post244359</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>I agree and think it is great that the law follows the principal that it is people's intention that is important rather than what they did<br />"An orange heart" instead of a tick, I have a feeling I can guess who marked that paper</p><p>And while it is great a?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:23:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244360#post244360</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244360#post244360</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						As an aside, has anyone seen any Briefings to Incoming Ministers pop up yet? They had all been released by 17 December last time and were trumpeted by each minister as they came out, but nary a word this time.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:28:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ross Mason</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244364#post244364</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244364#post244364</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>No, the orange heart comment is thus:</p><p>[47]........My favourite was the voter who emphasised their tick for Carmel Sepuloni by drawing an orange heart in the rectangle containing her name."</p><p>They had ticked.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:59:11 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>linger</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244365#post244365</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244365#post244365</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Whats to stop a party (blue or red take your pick) arranging this to their advantage<br />I do know Labour organises to get people out to vote, in fact boast about it</q></p><p>If you are suggesting any connection between these statements, <br />could you please make that connection explicit? <br />What, if?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:13:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244366#post244366</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244366#post244366</guid>
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						<p><q>Whats to stop a party (blue or red take your pick) arranging this to their advantage</q></p><p>Please be explicit about what you are suggesting.</p><p>I think you do not have a solid argument to suggest wrongdoing. As I noted above, any would-be fraudster is stymied by not knowing who has?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:23:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244372#post244372</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244372#post244372</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Briefings to Incoming Ministers pop up yet? They had all been released by 17 December last time and were trumpeted by each minister as they came out, but nary a word this time.</q></p><p>Last time the Ministers were sworn in on 19 November: this year it was 14 December.</p><p>I've?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:38:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244373#post244373</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244373#post244373</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						And National puts adverts in the paper with phone numbers for people to ring for takeaway votes. The point is?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:39:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244374#post244374</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244374#post244374</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>folks in hospital on E-Day</q></p><p>An aside: there were polling places in most if not all hospitals on polling day.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:56:28 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244377#post244377</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244377#post244377</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Last time the Ministers were sworn in on 19 November: this year it was 14 December.</p><p>I've made a phone call and will report. There is usually a coordinated programme to release the BIMs.</q></p><p>Doh! of course. Damn my suspicious mind ;-)</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:02:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244380#post244380</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244380#post244380</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>...release the BIMs.</q><br />This has a certain gothic frisson...</p><p>Shame they didn't go for<br />In Coming Briefs for Ministers<br />ICBMs seem more in keeping<br />with the prevailing MAD* paradigm...</p><p><em>*Mutually Assured Destruction</em></p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:22:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244395#post244395</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244395#post244395</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Are you saying MADness, takes its toll?
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:28:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244403#post244403</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244403#post244403</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Briefings to Incoming Ministers</q></p><p>I've spoken to a person in the PM's office. NZ can expect proactive release of the briefings in the New Year.</p><p>To my mind, they'd be mad to not take advantage of the slow news weeks mid-Jan to early-Februrary, but we'll see.</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:43:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gareth Ward</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244405#post244405</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244405#post244405</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						The whole thing kinda reads like an Ian McEwan novel...
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:50:45 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Jeremy Eade</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244414#post244414</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244414#post244414</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						It shows how important the floating vote is. How many of Waitakere decided that day? If it was 100 then they decided that vote. Maybe polls that close should be redone.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:28:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244418#post244418</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244418#post244418</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Can?t remember precisely but research by Vowles Boston and others after past elections suggests quite a high proportion of voters decide on the day and even at the polling booh. 10% ? 20%? That would be far in excess of 100.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:37:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Jeremy Eade</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244425#post244425</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244425#post244425</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						That number seems incredibly high when you consider the combined polls got most percentages by 2-3%.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:46:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>DeepRed</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244430#post244430</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244430#post244430</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>*Mutually Assured Destruction</q></p><p>Surely you didn?t mean, Mutually Assured Demagoguery?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 16:09:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244441#post244441</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244441#post244441</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Thanks Phil.
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:13:03 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Christopher Dempsey</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244461#post244461</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244461#post244461</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I took an implication from that that there may have been some malice/corruption during the original count on the part of those doing the counting, which is very disappointing if true.</q></p><p>You could, if charitable, take the view that polling staff were tired and as Craig has noted, unfocussed, having?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:01:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Evan Yates</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244481#post244481</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244481#post244481</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<blockquote><p>Are you saying MADness, takes its toll?</p></blockquote><p>Not for very much longer?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:35:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Arthur on MemeSpree NZ</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244490#post244490</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244490#post244490</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Honestly, if more judges were willing to write in plain (which doesn't mean simple, necessarily) English, I think the country would be a lot better off. My favourite bit is point [42]:<br /><q> [42] At approximately 8:15pm on the Wednesday evening a National Party scrutineer, Mr Mark Brickell, requested that I?</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Dec 2011 23:25:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>DeepRed</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244493#post244493</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244493#post244493</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Also: does anyone else get the impression that the National party scrutineers came in with a bigger axe to grind, or is that just me?</q></p><p>The very same Mark Brickell mentioned in the Red Alert post I linked to in my <a href="http://publicaddress.net/system/topic/3324/?p=244230#post244230" target="_blank">Paula Bennett post</a>.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 01:17:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Jackie Clark</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244498#post244498</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244498#post244498</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I love the way this is written. So transparent, so easy to understand, and so fabulously subjective. And the figure that appalled me was the 300 odd people who voted, but because they weren't on the electoral roll, their votes didn't count. Silly, silly, silly.
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 07:52:10 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Paul Campbell</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244500#post244500</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244500#post244500</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						given that we're all legally required to be on the electoral roll the elections people should be following up those 300 people, not with fines or anything, but with an aggressive attempt to get them enrolled &ndash; perhaps starting with a card in the mail "So, your vote wasn't counted?
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 08:09:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Arthur on MemeSpree NZ</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244605#post244605</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244605#post244605</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>but with an aggressive attempt to get them enrolled &ndash; perhaps starting with a card in the mail "So, your vote wasn't counted because ...."</q></p><p>I agree &ndash; but perhaps replacing the word "aggressive" with "enthusiastic," as people tend to respond poorly to aggression &ndash; well intentioned or not, as?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:43:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Arthur on MemeSpree NZ</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244607#post244607</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244607#post244607</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Mark Bricknell</q></p><p>Ah, I see. I do recall reading that Red Alert post at the time...</p><p>Maybe it's my happy-go-lucky, Gen X/Y upbringing, but I honestly cannot comprehend a mind that can approach a free and fair contest of ideas in a beautifully democratic country with a proud ideal of?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:55:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244629#post244629</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244629#post244629</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Via Facebook:</p><p><a href="http://www.press.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/home/browse-books/new/notices/template/notice_item.jsp?cid=414349" target="_blank">"Briefcase" &ndash; Judge Adams's first book of poetry</a>:</p><p><q>After an argument with his wife, Verity, Jason Button threw a stapler which struck her on the face. Is he guilty of violent assault? Or was it just a matter of bad luck?</p><p><em>Briefcase</em>, the first book of poetry by?</q></p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:29:15 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244634#post244634</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244634#post244634</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Might pay to check with the Electoral Enrolment Centre, 04 801 0700. I have an idea that the people in this situation (~15,000 &ndash; 20,000 each election) get an invitation to enrol. I think it does not say the special vote wasn't counted. But it would pay to check.
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:16:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Felix Marwick</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244717#post244717</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244717#post244717</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>The BIMs will be released in January. Generally there is a  4 ? 6 week window for their release. They?re coming out later this time largely because the election was later when compared to 2008.</p><p>As regards the Judge?s written decision on the Waitakere judicial recount, It was the most?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:44:38 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244806#post244806</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244806#post244806</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Yeh, I realise I was being a little optimistic ;-) Thanks
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 15:49:58 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244822#post244822</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244822#post244822</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Thanks for posting that, Graeme, it was certainly a delight to read. As others have observed, if all judgements were as well-written, the country (and, indeed, the entirety of the planet reliant upon the common law system) would possibly be a better place. Law schools therein would most certainly be?
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 18:02:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244878#post244878</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244878#post244878</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>So the Electoral Commission has  (impressively quickly) put full <a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2011/e9/html/statistics.html" target="_blank">election statistics</a> online including <a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2011/splitvote_index.html" target="_blank">split vote</a> information. Overall slightly more of us split our votes ? 30.7% vs 29.63% in 2008.</p><p>I?m disappointed in the <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&amp;objectid=10775110" target="_blank">Herald?s</a> angle, ?the Greens are to blame? for Waitakere. In fact, Bennett?s votes came from all over.?</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:11:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244880#post244880</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244880#post244880</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Technical note, for any would-be anoraks out there wanting to read the split vote information. From the <a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2011/splitvote_index.html" target="_blank">index page</a> you can download an electorate as a web page or csv file. The latter can be manipulated in Excel or other spreadsheet software.</p><p>The splits are given as percentages of the?</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:21:36 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244883#post244883</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244883#post244883</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I?m disappointed in the Herald?s angle, ?the Greens are to blame? for Waitakere. </q></p><p>Trevett's claim about what the Greens were telling voters is also fanciful. As is her downplaying the more definite message in Epsom.</p><p><q>The Green Party candidates made it clear in marginal electorates that they were campaigning only?</q></p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:23:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244889#post244889</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244889#post244889</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>what the Greens were telling voters is also fanciful</q></p><p>At an Ohariu meet the candidates evening, Gareth Hughes explicitly asked for party votes for the Greens, and didn't mention candidate votes. The Libertarianz man was the only other one to do ask for party votes. Chauvel not surprisingly said it?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:48:40 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244895#post244895</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244895#post244895</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>explicitly asked for party votes for the Greens, and didn't mention candidate votes</q></p><p>exactly</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 11:35:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>nzlemming</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244923#post244923</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244923#post244923</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Technical note, for any would-be anoraks out there wanting to read the split vote information.</q></p><p>I resemble that remark!</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 16:51:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244927#post244927</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244927#post244927</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Hooray! Data for Christmas.</p><p>Does anyone happen to know if the comparable figures for the previous election are easily accessible?</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 17:44:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244932#post244932</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244932#post244932</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Does anyone happen to know if the comparable figures for the previous election are easily accessible?</q></p><p>Yes.</p><p><a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2008/splitvote_index.html" target="_blank">2008</a><br /><a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2005/splitvote_index.html" target="_blank">2005</a><br /><a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2002/splitvotes/splitvoting.html" target="_blank">2002</a></p><p><q>Hooray! Data for Christmas.</q></p><p>Merry Christmas!</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 19:32:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Hood</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244934#post244934</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244934#post244934</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						...and a New Years present of _even_ more data.
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:34:44 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244969#post244969</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244969#post244969</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						geeks :)
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				<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2011 11:26:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244979#post244979</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244979#post244979</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Yes.</p><p>2008<br />2005<br />2002</q></p><p>Anorak Heaven, perhaps.</p>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:36:15 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Phil Lyth</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244980#post244980</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=244980#post244980</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Replying more generally than Graeme, the good folks at the Electoral Commission have lots and lots of <a href="http://electionresults.govt.nz/" target="_blank">data</a> online for general elections since 1996 (plus byelections). Not just split vote info, but lots more. Select the election/byelection and drill down!
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:52:47 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>WH</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=245174#post245174</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=245174#post245174</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Turning back briefly now to my summer series of intriguing if not entirely unwelcome policy proposals: it's actually winter time where I am at the moment.</p><p>Part one took a hard look at my suggestion for a estate tax funded sovereign wealth fund and concluded it was a brilliant idea?</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 01:34:49 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=245180#post245180</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=245180#post245180</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>rictus grin barbies</q></p><p>excellent</p>
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:23:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=274467#post274467</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=274467#post274467</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I thought I'd bump this, given how sad I'm feeling about things like lines we're hearing about in the US election :-(
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:25:44 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=274470#post274470</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=274470#post274470</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Lines? I did not insufflate...
					]]></description>
				<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:42:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=274623#post274623</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-14-pages-of-democracy/?p=274623#post274623</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I thought I'd bump this, given how sad I'm feeling about things like lines we're hearing about in the US election :-(</q></p><p>I distinctly heard Obama say "Yeah, we gotta do something about that" in his victory speech.</p><p>Not sure what he <em>can</em> do &ndash; it's not really something in?</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 09:33:59 +1300</pubDate>
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