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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Legal Beagle: Referendum Fact Check #2: Think Tank</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218229#post218229</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218229#post218229</guid>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:48:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218230#post218230</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218230#post218230</guid>
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						And again, I have now opened this for discussion. You'd think that might be the default :-)
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:48:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>artig</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218231#post218231</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218231#post218231</guid>
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						Thank you for the analysis. <strong> rest deleted </strong>, my misunderstanding.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:08:02 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>artig</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218232#post218232</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218232#post218232</guid>
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						Sorry, I get it now. It was not about the Nazi party, but it was about the Nazis, forming other parties.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:15:49 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218235#post218235</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218235#post218235</guid>
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						<p><q>The pre-World War II electoral system in Germany was a pure proportional system (i.e. list vote only) with no threshold. It led to an incredibly fractured Parliament.</q></p><p>It's a big call to blame the incredibly chaotic times in that country at that time on the electoral system. I expect it?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:47:48 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218238#post218238</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218238#post218238</guid>
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						<p><q>After WWII, the Nazi Party was banned in Germany, so the threshold cannot have been introduced to keep them out</q></p><p>Can we have some links to (in English translation coz I didn't pay attention in German lessons at school) the minutes of the Herrenchiemsee Convention that discuss this?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:57:15 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218242#post218242</link>
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						<p><q>It's a big call to blame the incredibly chaotic times in that country at that time on the electoral system. I expect it was incredibly fractured because their entire society was incredibly fractured</q></p><p>I suspect so too. I make the same point about other Parliaments with low thresholds. However,  the?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:24:23 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218243#post218243</link>
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						<p><q>While there are arguments against the single seat exception, that it makes Parliament more disproportionate is not one of them. </q></p><p>It certainly does not make it more disproportionate for the party that attains a single seat, unless that party gets considerably less of the party vote than required for one?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:30:11 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218244#post218244</link>
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						<p>It seems obvious that a low threshold would lead to more parties, possibly single issue parties but is that a bad thing for democracy<br />I can see how it could be bad for stability but surely dis-enfranchising citizens is worse?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:31:30 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218245#post218245</link>
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						<p><q>However, the point remains that a 5% threshold could have stopped some of the fractiousness from getting representation in the legislature.</q></p><p>Not could. Would certainly have. But the important question seems to me "would that have been better or worse?". I doubt it would have made a lick of difference,?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:41:41 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Tim Hannah</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218246#post218246</link>
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						<p>It seems a little unfair at Point 2 to ding Matt McCarten for talking about the very close to the threshold Green result in 99 by stating they didn't didn't stand in 96.</p><p>I mean, you're right, but so is he.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:49:45 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218247#post218247</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218247#post218247</guid>
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						<p><q> I doubt it would have made a lick of difference, Hitler was brought in by huge majorities, and if he hadn?t been, it?s quite likely he might have seized power anyway, as he eventually did, even though democracy actually installed him. </q></p><p>The Nazi Party never received a majority.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 09:58:56 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Adam Maynard</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218248#post218248</link>
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						<p>I always found the dis-enfranchising of voters a concern as well; but I also like that the Threshold exists. Otherwise there is a high chance we would have a plethora of smaller parties causing chaos.</p><p>Personally I would like to see a pseudo STV/MMP type of system where voters could?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 10:06:15 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218250#post218250</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218250#post218250</guid>
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						<p><q>It seems a little unfair at Point 2 to ding Matt McCarten for talking about the very close to the threshold Green result in 99 by stating they didn't didn't stand in 96.</q></p><p>Yeah, I figured  he was just confusing his dates, and transplanting what happened in 1999 to 1996,?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 10:06:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Tim Hannah</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218251#post218251</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218251#post218251</guid>
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						<p>But, but... you quote him saying "The Greens almost also in <strong>99</strong>".</p><p>Unless you're misquoting him, and he actually said "The Greens almost also in <strong>96</strong>", I think you're holding him to an unreasonable standard.</p><p>Though kudos for the Nandor trivia, it does need to be said.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 10:19:23 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218253#post218253</link>
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						<p><q>The Nazi Party never received a majority.</q></p><p>Yes, I shouldn't say Hitler received majorities. It was in a coalition arrangement that he became the Chancellor. But the Nazi party wasn't some tiny party hovering around the threshold. They got over 33% in 1932, that's in the same ballpark as both?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 10:39:34 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218254#post218254</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218254#post218254</guid>
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						<p>I'm not misquoting Matt.</p><p>He was saying that in 1999 Labour did a deal over Coromandel because at the previous election (i.e. '96), the Greens were close to the threshold.</p><p>This didn't happen.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 10:43:27 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Tim Hannah</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218259#post218259</link>
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						<p>Ah, yes, I see your reading. Which, you're right, is a reasonable take on the quote. Apologies. I'm reading as I expect to see it, maybe his meaning was clearer in the audio.</p><p>(Though, suspect the transcript isn't as kind to him as it could be. If he did a?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 11:04:03 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218269#post218269</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218269#post218269</guid>
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						<p><q>Sorry, I get it now. It was not about the Nazi party, but it was about the Nazis, forming other parties.</q></p><p>My mistake. I've added the previously missing "not".</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 11:22:56 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218301#post218301</link>
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						One reason I don't watch TV (or play many video files) is that talking heads are always going to be full of error and tendentiousness. I'd much rather read texts that have had some considered thought behind them.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 12:32:23 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>uroskin</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218305#post218305</link>
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						It's a pity the "Pure Proportional" system isn't an option in the MMP referendum. All the alternatives on offer are less proporttional than MMP. I would prefer an 1/120 threshold with lists only (plus voting for a candidate on a list allowed to rank successful list places). No need for?
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 12:35:39 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218318#post218318</link>
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						<p><q>It's a pity the "Pure Proportional" system isn't an option in the MMP referendum.</q></p><p>It isn't, but if MMP gets the big thumbs up, I understand that tweaking it is next on the agenda.</p><p><q>I'd much rather read texts that have had some considered thought behind them.</q></p><p>Mind you, there's?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 13:12:53 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218320#post218320</link>
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						<p><q>TV for fiction</q><br />Close Up, 60 Minutes, Sunday? That sort of thing?</p><p><q>in movies you get to the mood/point a hundred times faster than with a book</q><br />Yes, but it's almost always boy meets girl. In the dim, distant past I had about a weeks downtime on a ship and?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 13:17:51 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218322#post218322</link>
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						<p><q>It?s a pity the ?Pure Proportional? system isn?t an option</q></p><p>Yes. Is it actually used anywhere? I'd favour it (but would tend to keep the Maori seats unless and until Maori decide to dump them). The obvious argument against is that it doesn't permit people to have a local MP?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 13:21:33 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218323#post218323</link>
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						<p><q>Yes, but it's almost always boy meets girl.</q></p><p>Yes, the dynamic between Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins just oozed an urgent horizontal desire.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 13:28:21 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218327#post218327</link>
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						<p><q>The obvious argument against is that it doesn't permit people to have a local MP they can take their problems to, but in practice parties designate their list MPs to a geographical area anyway.</q></p><p>I think that side of things is massively overrated. I can't imagine going to my local?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 13:39:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218372#post218372</link>
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						<p><q><em>It?s a pity the ?Pure Proportional? system isn?t an option</em></p><p>Yes. Is it actually used anywhere? </q></p><p>The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_Netherlands#Seat_assignment" target="_blank">The Netherlands</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Finland#Parliamentary_elections" target="_blank">Finland</a>.  Other Scandanavian countries tend to proportionalise by region (sometimes with a national top-up to correct the resulting errors), with a low threshold.</p><p>  Though they also do things such as?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:12:06 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Graeme Edgeler</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218379#post218379</link>
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						<p><q> <em>It?s a pity the ?Pure Proportional? system isn?t an option</em></p><p>Yes. Is it actually used anywhere? </q></p><p>Lots.</p><p>Israel. South Africa.</p><p>A bunch of European nations (although some only have regional lists).</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:29:30 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>uroskin</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218407#post218407</link>
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						Yes, PR in The Netherlands, with its fractured political landscape, a small party like the Party for the Animals recently succeeded in banning halal and kosher slaughter methods with large backing from other parties, despite fierce lobbying by Islamic and Jewish interests (and everyone knows how dear to the Dutch?
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:14:16 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218411#post218411</link>
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						I'm not entirely sure that's full of win (forcing Muslims and Jews to eat non-Halal or non-Kosher food isn't automatically good), but it does seem like a good outcome in some ways. Even animals get representation in PR.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:19:21 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Idiot Savant</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218416#post218416</link>
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						More importantly, an electoral system which encourages representation allows issues to be considered on their merits (politically speaking) rather than simply ignored because they don't matter to rich dead white males.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:30:34 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>bmk</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218465#post218465</link>
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						<p>To me its good that people for whom animal rights is their key issue can have a say and legislate against cruelty. Their not prohibiting the religion just saying they can't practise the cruel parts of it in this country. </p><p>People complain about small single-issue parties. But to the people?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 18:08:46 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218520#post218520</link>
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						bmk, I totally agree on all counts.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:44:47 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218521#post218521</link>
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						<p><q>One would hope that if National and Labour had to choose between going into coalition with each other or forming a govt. with a fundamentalist christian party or white supremacy party they would choose to go into coaliton with each other,</q></p><p>Nah they'd demand another election, tribal creatures that they?</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:52:41 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>bmk</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218526#post218526</link>
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						Sadly you would be right. You think though if they then had another election and the result was the same they would have no choice but to take it because if they tried to force a third election despite their being a viable option they would both be (and rightly?
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 22:36:10 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218531#post218531</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218531#post218531</guid>
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						Or it might force the big parties to splinter as they perhaps should under a proportional system &ndash; separate out the bigger blocs lurking within, so the trade-offs are more out in the open and contestable.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:56:29 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>bmk</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218687#post218687</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218687#post218687</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Or it might force the big parties to splinter as they perhaps should under a proportional system &ndash; separate out the bigger blocs lurking within, so the trade-offs are more out in the open and contestable.</q></p><p>True and I don't see that as a bad thing because as you mention?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 13:50:20 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>DeepRed</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218720#post218720</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218720#post218720</guid>
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						<p><q>If National split into a Farmers party and an Employers party it would be more honest.</q><br />Like the Aussie Lib-Nat coalition?</p><p><q>And Labour could split into a Union party and a liberal party (the two are quite often opposed &ndash; I have nothing directly against unions but they can often?</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 15:34:15 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>bmk</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218753#post218753</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218753#post218753</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Yes. Some unions are often anti-immigration and historically anti-women rights. As their mine goal was representing the predominantly white males who made up their membership. A lot of unions do a lot of good things but there is often a schism in left politics between the economic left socially conservative?
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				<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:18:11 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>DeepRed</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218770#post218770</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218770#post218770</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<q>Yes. Some unions are often anti-immigration and historically anti-women rights. As their mine goal was representing the predominantly white males who made up their membership. A lot of unions do a lot of good things but there is often a schism in left politics between the economic left socially conservative?</q>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 21:37:05 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Raymond A Francis</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218800#post218800</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218800#post218800</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Whereas I don't really feel represented in NZ at all as I am centrist on economic issues while highly liberal on social matters. And I feel that no party in NZ really represents my views.</q></p><p>Likewise, hopefully with a lower threshold there could a splitting of the parties into units?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2011 10:31:51 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218811#post218811</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=218811#post218811</guid>
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						<p>The concept of social liberalism/economic conservatism is bogus.</p><p>There are two factors in play here:<br />&ndash; one very successful survival mechanism of capitalism is to build fear and bigotry in the masses. By feeling that there is an "other", who they can look down on and simultaneously fear, the mass?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2011 11:16:30 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=219433#post219433</link>
				<guid>http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/legal-beagle-referendum-fact-check-2-think/?p=219433#post219433</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>I think that side of things is massively overrated. I can't imagine going to my local MP as first port of call for any issue except, maybe, a local issue. And here's the thing &ndash; I don't really have local issues much. If I do, I change location.</q></p><p>I think?</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:21:50 +1200</pubDate>
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