OnPoint: Dear Labour Caucus
965 Responses
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BenWilson, in reply to
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Known Kiwi groomer. Sayin'.
I took those Kiwis from a hard life grubbing in the bush to easy street in my organic petting and "biggest eggs in town" business. What have your puritanical mores ever done for destitute Kiwis, huh?
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BenWilson, in reply to
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And anyways, you're just bitter that kiwicentrefolds.com featuring all my most beautiful chicks made more money than Public Address just from misdirected AdSense clicks. Someone was going to reap it, why not me?
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Gives 'kiwi dip' a whole new meaning.
Got any chips, bro?
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BenWilson, in reply to
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Nah, bro. "Chip's Shop". Note the apostrophe. We're actually a radio station. #threadmerge
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Damian Christie, in reply to
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I know you blame the Global Financial Crisis, but that heavy petting zoo was never going to fly (much like its inhabitants), although Pakuranga was an inspired location - I hope you didn't lose too much on that in the end.
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Sacha, in reply to
heavy petting zoo
promising Battle of the Bands contender
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
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Luddite entertainment...
And this close to Christmas, it’s worth noting that there are very few machines than can’t be smashed to pieces by a toddler before the turkey is out of the oven.
I reckon those 'nek minnit' bibs will just fly off the shelves...
'ullo, Boson...atomic propositions
shady dealsmore spin and counterspin...
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
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It would be a real shame to lose your voice.
Ah, but what is the point in having a voice if I can't use it? Because what you say about the usefulness of the community having a fairly well-defined ideological centre is true, but the centre shouldn’t be allowed to become the whole. In fact I think Russell and Damian’s latest point about how the need to constantly define terms might make people disinclined to participate is a perfect illustration of how this community’s supposedly inclusive self-regulating mechanisms (and I could write a book about “don’t be a dick”, I really could) reinforce its biases: it’s precisely by never defining terms that you get to the point where the preferences and needs of a sector of the middle class become the implicit horizon of every discussion, be it about food or travel or politics.
There is a disconnect here in my view: if the sensitivity to alterity and diversity in Emma’s writing and threads could be transferred into the more broadly political sphere, the community would begin to see through class boundaries. I suspect that the people of Trotter’s ilk who lament the influence of identity politics might just be envious of its vocabulary and how it’s succeeded in making privilege visible.
(That “hey, you’re middle class” should be considered offensive is in a way the crux of it. I don’t think that if I had said “hey, you’re a bloke” to somebody in one of Emma’s threads it might have warranted a scalding.)
His voice is still on Twitter and Bat Bean Beam, of course.
Plus I'm at the Tropicana every second Friday.
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Russell Brown, in reply to
There is a disconnect here in my view: if the sensitivity to alterity and diversity in Emma’s writing and threads could be transferred into the more broadly political sphere, the community would begin to see through class boundaries. I suspect that the people of Trotter’s ilk who lament the influence of identity politics might just be envious of its vocabulary and how it’s succeeded in making privilege visible.
Interesting proposition, beautifully expressed.
I do honestly think you've been difficult to have a discussion with elsewhere in this thread though. That's all.
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
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I do honestly think you've been difficult to have a discussion with elsewhere in this thread though.
But that's okay! I don't want to not be difficult. People should be difficult, from time to time. We have had benefits set under the poverty line for twenty years in this country, nine of which under a Labour government. When is it okay to stop being polite about that?
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Emma Hart, in reply to
There is a disconnect here in my view: if the sensitivity to alterity and diversity in Emma’s writing and threads could be transferred into the more broadly political sphere, the community would begin to see through class boundaries.
The reason those discussions work is that no-one is dumb or insensitive enough to be a nit-picky fight chasing arsehole on those threads. My number two rule is "read kindly".
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Damian Christie, in reply to
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But that’s okay! I don’t want to not be difficult.
And that's your right. In which case, you shouldn't be surprised if people point out that you are. Also, there's a fine line (or maybe it's pretty damn obvious) between being intellectually challenging, and being a snarky prick. Or perhaps it's a spectrum. And people might point out if they think someone is straying a bit too far in one direction. Or just choose not to participate. Or the first, followed by the second.
I found our conversation the other day very difficult, and not in an intellectually challenging way. And being called middle class was pretty much the least of it, because as you point out, I'm probably am, although I'd need you to define the limits before I know for sure.
On this thread, as with others (on different topics), I just start hearing this snarky tone emerge from various people, where it seems like people are just picking fights, and not particularly interesting ones. And if I'm honest, you're one of the people I most often pick up that tone from. But that's cool, honestly, it really is, as long as you don't mind it being pointed out, or don't mind me ignoring you or leaving the discussion, then keep going. As someone who has made a good middle-class living by existing on the snarky prick spectrum over the years, I can definitely handle it, it's more just a case of how long until I find no marginal utility from remaining in the conversation, as opposed to say, doing my laundry or trying to work out where that smell of cat piss is coming from in my room.
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Sacha, in reply to
We have had benefits set under the poverty line for twenty years in this country, nine of which under a Labour government. When is it okay to stop being polite about that?
I totally agree about that - it's economic violence against our own countryfolk that we're all responsible for not demanding fixed. But I don't believe we need a discussion about what counts as "left", more about what counts as human. Accompanied by some firm action.
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Isaac Freeman, in reply to
I suspect that the people of Trotter’s ilk who lament the influence of identity politics might just be envious of its vocabulary and how it’s succeeded in making privilege visible.
That is astute.
I've often felt that people practice a level of consideration when talking about race or gender or sexual orientation that they abandon when they talk about class. But we have no more choice over the families we're born into than than the bodies we get.
Perhaps one of the reasons that people seem reluctant to talk about class is that they don't know how to talk about it without sounding like they're blaming people for how they were born.
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Email Web
Well, Emma, that comment looks like veiled name calling.
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Email Web
That is name calling, and I don't like it, Damian.
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Rich of Observationz, in reply to
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That isn't name calling.
Smellysocks pantie-poos
*That's* name calling
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giovanni tiso, in reply to
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The reason those discussions work is that no-one is dumb or insensitive enough to be a nit-picky fight chasing arsehole on those threads.
Wow. Really? Okay. Except my working hypothesis is that if Public Address treated sexual orientation the way it treats class, you'd be denouncing it very loudly. From another blog. And you'd be as snarky as the day is long. As indeed you are here, liberally and often, including making comments about commenters in your threads from the twitter feed that runs alongside the thread.
So, being a dick? In the eye of the beholder, if you ask me.
And that's your right. In which case, you shouldn't be surprised if people point out that you are.
I don't have a problem with people pointing out that I'm difficult. When the moderator does it, it's different, and it sets the tone of the place and the limits of the discussion. When he does it for the tenth time for the same reason, and you think the reason is bollocks, in can be exasperating, and pretty much leaves you no chioce but to bugger off - which of course is fine, too. I hadn't posted here for months for a reason. I certainly regret popping back in.
But I don't believe we need a discussion about what counts as "left", more about what counts as human.
It doesn't have to be called Left, for me Left can mean something as simple as a consideration for people south of "middle [insert name of country here]". I do know however that a generic commitment to fairness doesn't cut it - we get that from every single political party. I also agree with an observation that WB Sutch made 50 years ago about the lack of social imagination of our ruling class. We need to sharpen that imagination radically and that might involve the odd impolite discussion about just who is being served by either of our main parties in government.
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Sacha, in reply to
whose interests are served always strikes me as a great question about any proposal
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Ian Dalziel, in reply to
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whose interests are served...
+1 - pro, cui bono...
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Email Web
As opposed to sexual orientation, class position can shift. Thats my experience. I was once illegible to the literate class, which did lead to times of poverty. Try getting employment that doesn’t involve reading and particularly writing skills. Then you will understand the qualification of my anecdote.
I once spent three months learning how to weld, then later in life I spent six months learning to weld better. Then even later, I went to art school, where I learned how to read and write, which is a reason I can participate in this discussion group. The computer is obviously more instrumental.
What I like about Public Address, is that it’s loaded with an academic class of people, whom by communicating with in the native language, has played a part in my leaving a relative poverty behind. That’s not saying I couldn’t previously afford fresh fruit and vegetables.
My sexual orientation hasn’t changed.
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DeepRed, in reply to
Perhaps one of the reasons that people seem reluctant to talk about class is that they don’t know how to talk about it without sounding like they’re blaming people for how they were born.
I suspect also because it’s a dirty little secret of the nation – one of its big founding myths was to escape the squalor and human sardine tin of Dickensian Britain, in the same vein that America was the ‘land of the free, home of the brave’.
We are indeed a classless nation – that is, in the institutionalised British sense. What’s emerged instead is a de facto caste system as seen in America, where celebrities and executives have effectively become lords and barons by another name. It's all the more so with unskilled hands being made obsolete by machines and industrial globalisation.
To name just one example: Auckland Grammar, despite being a state school, acts like it’s the Eton of the Pacific.
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Danielle, in reply to
that might involve the odd impolite discussion
Well, we're going to have bugger-all impolite discussions now, aren't we? (I mean obviously, do what you've got to do, and all that. But... meh.)
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I'd be more worried about the fantasies of some usual suspects about the left.
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Greg Dawson, in reply to
(and I could write a book about “don’t be a dick”, I really could)
Umm, I know I'm interrupting something, but can we have that book? Or the discussion and debate that makes that book?
As someone who has basically built his life around that precept (after finding religion and sport a bit useless), I'd be keen. Maybe on BBB?
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