Sadly I don't know if your final claim will be heeded by thos responsible but hopefully others will read this and spread the knowledge about. Cheers.

Nothing magically happened when John Key took office.

Want to tell David Cunliffe? I almost expect to trip over a mound of exsanguinated kittens on the doorstep... :)

And I'm sure someone will nerd-fu my arse on this, but hysterical media and English over-egging the pudding aside is it such?

Please stop making shit up.

And media, stop repeating it like muppets.

And I'm sure someone will nerd-fu my arse on this, but hysterical media and English over-egging the pudding aside is it such a bad thing if we're slowly (and painfully) getting off the debt-fuelled consumption crack?

No, but the ideal scenario is that we become more productive and export more,?

And media, stop repeating it like muppets.

Well, Rod Oram seem to keep writing out the calm, measured reality checks. I really hope both English and Cunliffe will pay close attention to his Nat Radio effort today, but won't hold my breath.

Well, Rod Oram seem to keep writing out the calm, measured reality checks. I really hope both English and Cunliffe will pay close attention to his Nat Radio effort today, but won't hold my breath.

Yeah, I thought he was good today too. Policy that responds to new realities, yes.?

Policy for the sake of political branding, not so much.

Indeed – the nasty (but popular) dog-whistling subtext to Key and Goff frothing about turning Kiwis into "tenants in their own country." Contemptible. Perhaps Keith and Oram could fire up the Fiskmobile and run over that weasel...

Of course Bill English should know every point you have made, or his time at Treasury was wasted. It is just a sign of how much the government needs good news in the?

Cutting public spending to solve private?

1) That doesn't make the a measure of prosperity
2) Surely that?

1) That doesn't make the a measure of prosperity
2) Surely that happened because Winston manged to hitch super to the most inflated measure he could.

[Like]

The unemployed are being made to look invisible in the economic debate.

We have to be the party that helps those on lower incomes, and also those on middle incomes – 60-thousand, and 70-thousand, and 80-thousand dollars a year.

From the words I wouldn't have though he was?

The unemployed are being made to look invisible in the economic debate.

As Gio notes in reference to Phil Goff's speech on the weekend:

[Bomber Bradbury refers to] Goff's first New Zealand: the good people who buy the second hand cars and the fish and chips and go camping, engulfed.?

From the words I wouldn't have though he was referring to household incomes, but that's the only way he'd be right.

Even if you gave him a massive benefit of the doubt on that one, he's still equating 'people' with 'families', which is of even greater concern to me than?

Exactly. Our mainstream media is becoming a disgrace. Why are these lying twats not being held to account for their misinformation and spin?

Because that's the job of the opposition?

You are rubbish at poker but phenomenal at sifting out bullshit. Long may that never reverse.

That's so unfashionable. No-one does that anymore. Not even, as Danyl just pointed out, the opposition. Maybe that would set a dangerous precedent where they might be on the receiving end of nasty criticism should they ever get into power again.

Mind you, perhaps if some party could gain a reputation for not doing it themselves it might help.

As for media, if you take time?

is it such a bad thing if we're slowly (and painfully) getting off the debt-fuelled consumption crack?

Agreed. The issue though is has the patient stopped using because of a conscious life-style choice for the better

OR

did they simply die?

Which would make the job of the mainstream media to spread misinformation and spin. Thanks for playing The End of Civil Discourse.

I guess you'd prefer some variation on FOX News where there is no attempt at impartial coverage and the news is just editorial content.

As for media, if?

A lot of workers receive a benefit as a top-up to their income, but not many seem to defferentiate between the?

I forget who said it, but a certain head of state reputedly said, "People with full bellies don't make revolutions."

Variously attributed to this fine gentleman or this one. Of course, the latter may well have been parrotting the former.

[edit: What happened to my Preview button?! RUSSELL!?]

No, I'd expect journalists to fisk politicians on either side, as impartially as they can, and for reporting in general to err on the side of scepticism for politicians' utterances.

True dat. I'm a bit sick of hearing about the govenments generous offer to the teachers (that the greedy sods?

No, I'd expect journalists to fisk politicians on either side, as impartially as they can, and for reporting in general to err on the side of scepticism for politicians' utterances.

You might expect journalists to do that but you're going to be perptually disappointed because that's not their job. There?

is it such a bad thing if we're slowly (and painfully) getting off the debt-fuelled consumption crack?

Agreed. The issue though is has the patient stopped using because of a conscious life-style choice for the better

OR

did they simply die?

That was pretty damn good.

You might expect journalists to do that but you're going to be perptually disappointed because that's not their job.

I'd be genuinely interested to know if schools in New Zealand teach your version of journalism. That would explain a bit.

Oh, now he's talking about inflation.

Why do they never listen?

You might expect journalists to do that but you're going to be perptually disappointed because that's not their job.

Hmm.... So, then I assume you're not personally offended by the bloggers that have started using the term "repeater" instead of reporter?

I'd be genuinely interested to know if schools in New Zealand teach your version of journalism. That would explain a bit.

I think you'll find they do, because impartial, balanced and objective reporting is what journalism is, or at least what it is supposed to aspire to. There are many?

I think you'll find they do, because impartial, balanced and objective reporting is what journalism is, or at least what it is supposed to aspire to.

"Goodnight, and good luck."

OPINIONS DIFFER ON SHAPE OF EARTH

A Wellington man has claimed that the Earth is torus shaped, provoking sharp disagreement from scientists who point to the overwhelming evidence in favor of the spherical earth model. The man advancing the torus argument has no qualifications and could produce no evidence supporting?

I think you'll find they do, because impartial, balanced and objective reporting is what journalism is, or at least what it is supposed to aspire to.

I think there's a "speaking truth to power" clause somewhere there too.

I honestly don't think that misleading information is conveyed solely out of?

The impression I'm getting is that most of their gripe relates to class sizes and NCEA workload rather than rates of pay.

And we haven't discussed disruptive pupils yet either. Today's teachers are forced to double as social workers and wardens, and one can understand why they're brassed off.

Oh and multiple snaps.

A Wellington man has claimed that the Earth is torus shaped, provoking sharp disagreement from scientists who point to the overwhelming evidence in favor of the spherical earth model. The man advancing the torus argument has no qualifications and could produce no evidence supporting his claims.

The man will appear?

Danyl, fine to report differences of opinion but lies about fact should be pointed out as such. That's what journalism used to be before the free market version you're talking about took hold. "Objectivity" doesn't mean giving equal space to flat earthers.

But English isn't flat out lying – he's?

Kieth does a fine job of explaining why he feels those are not valid measures and that the government is spinning for Africa, and I agree with him – but that's a job for a commentator/analyst, not a news reporter.

The job for a reporter would be to find someone?

But English isn't flat out lying – he's bullshitting. Inflation IS low. Real after tax wages ARE higher.

The lying comes in statements about what those facts mean – for instance, that low growth rates mean people are 'saving' rather than just poor.

By all means, report the claims -?

Yes. And – like I keep saying – that is the role of the opposition. If you link?

No, the core problem is that we have an opposition who are unable to entertain New Zealand's facile media.

Kieth does a fine job of explaining why he feels those are not valid measures and that the government is spinning for Africa, and I agree with him – but that's a job for a commentator/analyst, not a news reporter.

Just checking ... commentators and analysts aren't journalists?

The core problem is that we have an opposition who are really terrible at communications.

Open question: What would happen if my blog post was sent out as a press release from Goff's office? How much traction do you think it'd get?

What would happen if my blog post was sent out as a press release from Goff's office?

[If they'd been timely enough] then in the news story to which you link, Phil Goff would have been quoted saying smart things instead of (or in addition to) David Cunliffe saying what?

I like that journalists (supposedly) don't write their opinions as fact, but they do a very poor job at getting someone like a statistician or economist to comment on the pontifications of gummint misers. That is balance.

Which brings us to another mainstay of modern journalism — the expert commentator,?

Well, you'd have an article which said – English says this is true. The opposition disputes this.

But English isn't flat out lying – he's bullshitting. Inflation IS low. Real after tax wages ARE higher.

Danyl please read the OP again.

What you have missed is that English stated wages are higher. What a journalist should have done was note that English has used average wages which?

is anyone in the media actually bothered that they've ran big fat headlines that are patently ludicrous?

The headline of the NZPA/Herald story is:

"Govt claims credit for six-year inflation low"

How is this not true? Doesn't your piece make an identical claim?

What would happen if my blog post was sent out as a press release from Goff's office? How much traction do you think it'd get?

Given the high profanity count, quite a lot.

Let me make one more point about the PAS fantasy model of journalism.

Let's say you're a?

Oh Keith! You and your fact checking and analysis!

That's so unfashionable. No-one does that anymore. Not even, as Danyl just pointed out, the opposition.

Well, no... apparently the opposition's big economic policy idea of the week is preventing dirty foreigners from hazing all ur cheez. Or something.

Rod Oram?

There's a reason most columnists only write a couple of columns a week, at most.

Because all the "very smart, very knowledgeable" ones have found work as ministerial press secretaries?

Let me make one more point about the PAS fantasy model of journalism.

Danyl, don't patronise me. I've been in journalism for 30 years. I think I know a bit about it. And don't get sneery about my website either. It's rude.

You have some sort of point, but you've?

But back in the real world these are complex subjects and they take time to write about intelligently. There's a reason most columnists only write a couple of columns a week, at most.

Woah! And now you've jumped arguments. Originally, it was that journalists (well, actually, reporters) don't do that?

Meanwhile, philosophers continue to assert that the "What shape is the Earth?" is meaningless because no one has definitively proved it exists and, that even if it does, whether we live there.

Or, for that matter, what "there" means, and whether such a word is definitive or subjective.

But back in the real world these are complex subjects and they take time to write about intelligently. There's a reason most columnists only write a couple of columns a week, at most.

Which explains Deborah Hill how??

Make a wish!

Woah! And now you've jumped arguments. Originally, it was that journalists (well, actually, reporters) don't do that stuff because it's not objective and balanced — and now it's a resource issue?

'Jumped arguments?' I made one point and then I made another related point.

Not to knock your thirty years?

Hey, it's world statistics day tomorrow.

Make a wish!

That the men bogarting all the statistical sexual intercourse I've not had over the years give it back? Oh no... you don't get your wish if you say it out loud. Poo sticks.

it's just that breaking news is presented objectively for reasons that are pragmatic as well as philosophical.

I'd never really thought about it that way before. I'd presumed it was philosophy right down the line. But I guess that's the real lure of footage – you don't even have to?

The headline of the NZPA/Herald story is:
"Govt claims credit for six-year inflation low"
How is this not true? Doesn't your piece make an identical claim?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was just blowing off steam with that comment. I got a bit pissed off after seeing?

Analysis is last

But it's a false dichotomy – a journo who knows the subject properly will ask the right questions and challenge spin at the time – *before* they write a story.

Even lightweight analysis would be better than the regurgitated press releases that pass for news reporting.

Yes, but Danyl's point is that they take quite a lot longer to write, so they miss the punch. That's where blogs seem to have the jump – the analysis is immediate, because they're?

Hey, it's world statistics day tomorrow.
Make a wish!

I don't want to sound mean, but I wish everyone a very average day.

But it's a false dichotomy – a journo who knows the subject properly will ask the right questions and challenge spin at the time – *before* they write a story.

Yes, it's hardly a story, to just quote a transcript. But it is:
1. Fast. Nearly immediate.
2. True (the?

" All I know is that a great deal of the information published in our media is wrong."

When the headline reads "'Inflation Figures Encouraging' – English", people think inflation figures are good

Then people need to learn to read. There is nothing wrong with that headline, and the fact that Bill English claims that inflation figures are encouraging is news, and it is quite appropriate to report?

Well, it did happen so someone must have done it. My money would be on journalists.

So unfashionable now.

There is nothing wrong with that headline, and the fact that Bill English claims that inflation figures are encouraging is news, and it is quite appropriate to report it.

Inflation control in New Zealand is a 100 headline story, low inflation in a recession is not good news, it's what?

if the Finance Minister makes a statement about the economy and you have five minutes to turn around a story on it

Employing a little hyperbole, in the time factor methinks.

So who did the analysis and fisking 10 years ago before blogs became part of our media diet?
Well, it did happen so someone must have done it. My money would be on journalists.

So unfashionable now.

If you go to the archives and look at newspapers from ten years?

You just don't find it in wire service stories about breaking news that are posted to the web sites, for reasons I've already explained.

Danyl, you've whittled back your argument — or your definition of journalism — so far now that I agree with you:

Yes, it would be unusual?

Good to see Public Address keeps its Nat apologist around ready to defend anything these clowns claim.

Thanks, Martin. Hang around a little longer, and you might get a clue why that kind of patronising crap doesn't add any value to PAS. Perhaps Kiwibog or the Sub-Standard would be more?

Employing a little hyperbole, in the time factor methinks.

Not much, Andin. Any halfway competent political spin doctor is going to be fully aware of everyone's deadlines and manipulate them to best advantage. Hold that press conference in the middle of the afternoon – early enough to make the six?

Not much,

Well I only said a little ................I have got the wrong thread. OH thats right size is not an issue, here.

I wouldn't mind a little sober, reality-based forensics following pretty closely behind. That can't be unreasonable, can it?

Put those forceps down, this minute.

Thanks, Martin. Hang around a little longe

ETA: {redacted} – I now see there's a martinb

But, yes, I wouldn't mind a little sober, reality-based forensics following pretty closely behind. That can't be unreasonable, can it?

Finance Minister bullshits about state of the economy, opposition finance spokesman disagrees isn't really all that worthy of analysis. The only reason this one got picked up is because the?

ETA: {redacted} – I now see there's a martinb

Indeed – Mr B. should be informed that Danyl isn't a National Party stooge. I'd have met him at the coffee meeting-slash-black mass if he was.

We are Legion. Do not take Our name in vain, or We will fuck you?

This morning on TV1 or National Radio(I forget which) Anne Tolley said (paraphrasing) that teachers wishing to address class size issues?

it has turned politics into the circus of bullshit that it is today.

Unlike when? When was the golden age of New Zealand (or American, or whatever) political discourse?

Because I'm far from convinced it ever existed.

When was the golden age of New Zealand (or American, or whatever) political discourse?

Conservatives say it happened back in the day when people showed more respect to their elders and the media didn't report every little dalliance with witchcraft and the like.

Liberals say it is happening now, but?

It makes a mockery of the idea of governance by an informed citizenry, and it has turned politics into the circus of bullshit that it is today.

Brought to you by the Ministry of Truth and the Ministry of Plenty.

Fletcher:

This morning on TV1 or National Radio(I forget which) Anne?

as the ministry already assess secondary teacher funding on a class size of 17 pupils and if teachers were teaching classes of 30 or more it was because of local decisions

Fa arrrk.!!!! What a load of bullshit.

Unlike when? When was the golden age of New Zealand (or American, or whatever) political discourse?

Because I'm far from convinced it ever existed.

In Italy the public discourse overall isn't exactly something to aspire to (it's also a country with a slew of problems that New Zealand doesn't have),?

We are Legion. Do not take Our name in vain, or We will fuck you up.

I think your a bit late.... with the fuck you up part.

On the topic of teachers' pay...

and this government keeps harping on that they want to ensure the future, yet keep pruning back the means for our young to learn in the best manner possible... logic fail!

DOH! Nut!

A Wellington man has claimed that the?

I have this idea that the after tax real wage was what they eventually settled on as proof they were closing the wage gap with Australia.

Yes, pretty much. And the media never screamed "BULLSHIT!" at them over it, either. It was regurgitated happily, with no sign of contrary opinion,?

The only reason this one got picked up is because the bullshit was so egregious.

Not so. English was tossing large porkies around at Budget time which I recall at least the Standard and Cunliffe writing about, but which strangely enough didn't interrupt the handjob the media were delivering at?

Not so. English was tossing large porkies around at Budget time which I recall at least the Standard and Cunliffe writing about, but which strangely enough didn't interrupt the handjob the media were delivering at that stage.

Quoted to illustrate a final point that people with a strong political bias?

objective truth

quoted to illustrate the stunning political naivete of some involved in political commentary

Would you be able to write in depth commentaries on all these subjects on the same day without some expert in, say treaty law throwing a tantrum because there were errors in your legal analysis?

Here's my dirty secret. I have no stats qualification. I have no economic qualifications. My?

Bonus points for how "political bias" might affect my perception of how that figure has been described by the government and in media as about $50k.

Why do Journalists have problems with an hour of maths every now and then?

I care that, because they don't, they are a disruptive and irrational force that is harmful to collective decision-making

your example though is of a politician doing what politicians usually do – try and spin things to their advantage. It happens all the time and people in general don't take?

Is their any evidence that many people took what English was saying all that seriously?

The swinging voter decides elections and they swing off soundbites and smiles.

If low earners lose their jobs the median wage will rise as well

technically... yes... but in reality. no.

The sample size is so large, and the large volume of samples that are low or mid, compared to the very few that are high or extremely high..... means if you?

technically... yes... but in reality. no.

Actually technically yes, and in reality yes. Just by not as much, as you point out.

Which means, as I said, that's it's a far more complex story shown in Keith's graphs.

For median income to drop at the same time as average income?

Quoted to illustrate a final point that people with a strong political bias are really bad judges of things like objective truth and the impartiality of sources.

And now you're just ducking the substance of the argument altogether. But it is an interesting topic — you just need to work?

And now you're just ducking the substance of the argument altogether.

I've made all the points I wish to make, we're now at the stage of the debate where people repeat the same arguments I've already addressed. I have nothing more to add.

I've made all the points I wish to make, we're now at the stage of the debate where people repeat the same arguments I've already addressed. I have nothing more to add.

Oh, don't sulk. I don't think you've really addressed the counter-arguments.

Mind if we carry on though?

where people repeat the same arguments I've already addressed

Danyl, I asked about a concrete example. Explain away.

Quoted to illustrate a final point that people with a strong political bias are really bad judges of things like objective truth and the impartiality of sources

The front pages and lead stories should always be checked for political bullshit like irrelevant or out of context figures .

If i?

If i was a sports reporter i'd check figures.

The time New Zealand batsmen spent at the crease in Bangladesh in 2010 was a dramatic improvement on the average time per year in the 2001-2009 period. This dramatic improvement in New Zealand's statistics shows the team is moving in the?

This dramatic improvement in New Zealand's statistics shows the team is moving in the right direction.

I wouldn't put that in my report unless as a joke. I wouldn't compare a nine year trend with a one year trend and I wouldn't read too much into the ritual big wins?

I wouldn't compare a nine year trend with a one year trend and I wouldn't read too much into the ritual big wins opponents get against Bangladesh.

Let alone using a non-standard metric of "time at the crease in Bangladesh" as a comparison.

Let alone using a non-standard metric of "time at the crease" as a comparison.

El Nino or La Nina year?
Sunspot activity?
Approaching rare Galactic alignment?
... too many variables,
let alone non-Imperial units!

no or little time at the crease usually is a bad thing

but you'd need to be some kind of advanced cricketing expert to know that

Minister talks crap. Blogs tear apart the crap. Media faithfully report the crap. Crap wins.

Key/English are smart enough to know their target audience isn?t.

?If all the economists were laid??

A bit improbable, perhaps, but I suspect that the world would be a much better place.

more convergence..

The swinging voter decides elections and they swing off soundbites and smiles.

The swinging voter kept Clark in power for 3 terms which was I think an appropriate judgement on her qualities – an explanation for her sucess more accurate than the media being more intelligent back then.

Also, facts?

The swinging voter kept Clark in power for 3 terms which was I think an appropriate judgement on her qualities

That swinging voter never quite swang labours way, let's be honest,
41% tops at the poll. The swinging voter fell in love with peter dunne one year in 30 minutes.?

a lot of issues are about value judgements and self-interest

It's partly the self-interest thing that confuses me about this: surely people aren't going to suddenly think themselves better off because of what Bill English says?

Unless he starts sing Fred Dagg songs.

(Actually I can almost see it...)

The value judgement is : I voted national because they make teh economy work better. Bill just announced something that sounds like the economy?

NZ Cricket: using more batsmen than ever before...

Maybe we should simply decline to field numbers 10 and 11 — that way, our average batting ability will improve..

If journalists don't have any subject knowledge, or have the time and aptitude to learn about it, then I don't see what value they actually provide.

That's what's been infuriating me and my teaching colleagues in recent times. Surely there are a couple of journalists who could study up on?

These are all things?

There is no new money to offer teachers a bigger pay increase unless they?

"Noose around the neck," what an ugly fearful phrase.

...and often expertise committment are one thing that's DEFINATELY needed.

and CAPPING trumps spelling?
Definitely a suitable case for commitment...
:- )

but otherwise
good luck with it all

"Noose around the neck,"
what an ugly fearful phrase.

yeah! What happened to millstones anyway?

or just putting monkeys on their backs
or even selling their futures for mere silver...

I don't think this government knows where adults come from...

Surely there are a couple of journalists who could study up on what teachers actually want and comment on a SINGLE THING other than pay

Yamis, my nugget about pay being somewhat secondary to conditions was gleaned from those news reports. They're putting the information in there, but pay will?

Teachers are now a "noose around the neck of young New Zealanders".

Waiting.

Less genteel, less bullshit.

Limitation imposed by limited people is what limits us all-

(I fully support teachers/unions of most kinds and am leftwing._

If there isn't enough money for teachers, then why is there enough money for holiday highways and mismanaged financial institutions?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was just blowing off steam with that comment.

Still, jolly marvelous job so far imo.
Coming in late as usual, but having just read this this morning, it was so refreshing to see that someone (and proving more and more to be?

Is their any evidence that many people took what English was saying all that seriously?

The swinging voter decides elections and they swing off soundbites and smiles.

Just a bunch of swingers then? :)

I thing the big swinging thread is over there =====>

I thing you mean the big swinking thread, don't you? And please, where? I followed the arrow and fell off the computer.

Sorry, Jacqui, I meant the Incomparable Ms Hart's "Oh, Cock" column and the commentary attached thereto.

S'Okay, my friend. I've just spent several hours reading another dozen pages of yet another thread (guess which one that is!) and thought perhaps that was the one you meant. Have to say, if?

Goodness Sofie, you must be able to see my screen. It does indeed swing just to the right, on the next tab.

Oh Ben, Ben,Ben,Ben,Ben.
Rodney Hide has just risen joyously in the House. Hope your swinging makes you happy. And yes, I can see your screen. ;-)

Rodney Hide has just risen joyously in the House.

they always forget to use the stake,
or cut the head off...

Rodney Hide has just risen joyously in the House.
they always forget to use the stake,
or cut the head off...

The latter's not an option, a point Trace Hodgson once made with The Return of Mouldy, where a zombie Muldoon was portrayed returning from the political dead in a?

I'm partial to CatDog.

Well you know what Stella would think about that. I might just tell her. Oh no, she is staying in tonight so on second thoughts perhaps not. You know what she did to the bathroom door last time :)