OnPoint by Keith Ng

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OnPoint: Easy as 1, 2, 22.8 billion

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  • 3410,

    My sons names are Morris Oxford and Austin Cambridge.

    What next, Hillman Humber 90 Super Minx?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to 3410,

    Toyota "Spawny" Getz?

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8313 posts Report Reply

  • 3410,

    Mazda "Bongo Wagon" GSX Field Runner?

    Auckland • Since Jan 2007 • 2618 posts Report Reply

  • Bart Janssen, in reply to James Butler,

    Also, everyone knows a good upright piano is cheaper and sounds better than a baby grand.

    But it’s harder to lounge provocatively on …

    oops too much time in Emma’s thread

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 3261 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd, in reply to BenWilson,

    I agree with this comment of Ben's in every detail. Including the fact that my parents never voted for him either.

    In fact owing to the FPP gerrymander, Muldoon's mandate came from a minority of voters for his entire tenure, and not even from the biggest group of voters for the last 2/3.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2935 posts Report Reply

  • Rich Lock, in reply to 3410,

    What next?

    If it's a girl, Zanella Aprilia Guzzi Bimota.

    If it's a boy, Ridley Norton Royal Enfield.

    back in the mother countr… • Since Feb 2007 • 2354 posts Report Reply

  • Andre,

    I just think that opposition to means testing comes from a very small portion of society if the reality of the situation is pointed out - that it will only be the very wealthy who don't get paid superannuation if pensioners are means tested. The amount of negative press given to anyone who raises the issue is amazing considering the reality of the situation. NZ First have a field day. We have had a pension available to those who need it since the late 1800's. During the boom years when we topped the OECD the government brought in universal superannuation. We spend most of our welfare money on super yet many receiving it don't need it at all. It's not a right but a privilege to receive superannuation when you haven't actually saved for it in the first place and the initial reasoning behind the current system seems wrong in retrospect. There are only 200,000 wealthy investors in New Zealand (most of them over 60) so it's a very small group I'm referring to that will be affected if means testing was introduced.

    New Zealand • Since May 2009 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • Stephen Judd,

    Either that, or tell people they can have Muldoon-level super when they agree to Muldoon-level taxes.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 2935 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson,

    I actually think the antipathy to means testing goes to our stupidly skewed addiction to real estate. The asset-rich-cash-poor phenomenon is widespread. To me, the solution is not to force old people out of their homes, but rather to encourage the investment of a much larger proportion of our wealth into more liquid assets. Then people can stay in the home they spent a lifetime paying off, and have the cash with which to do it. Again, I advocate forcing people to do it, at least until the idea catches on. It's crazy how many old people are struggling on the breadline in some million dollar property on the pension, because to sell out would be such an enormous upheaval to every aspect of their lives that they just can't face it, until the day they have a terrible fall or something, and realize that they'd be better off in an old-folks home. The horrid class of property investors who prey on them during this period are quite sickening.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8313 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX,

    I can hear violins and I am getting very dizzy.

    "The horrid class of property investors who prey on them during this period are quite sickening.

    Elder abuse is often done by children - I wouldn’t think "the horrid class" you are imagining would get a look in.

    Either that, or tell people they can have Muldoon-level super when they agree to Muldoon-level taxes.

    By the way it has never been that great - try living on it.

    The asset-rich-cash-poor phenomenon is widespread. To me, the solution is not to force old people out of their homes, but rather to encourage the investment of a much larger proportion of our wealth into more liquid assets.

    You mean by liquid the stuff that evaporates in a downturn or crisis.

    Then people can stay in the home they spent a lifetime paying off, and have the cash with which to do it..

    You have got to see the "irony" here - if it took them a life time paying it off then they would be dead at the end of that term a lifetime and they wouldn't have the cash not that they would need it they are dead - I'm not sure you can get a mortgage for such a period.

    Now we are speaking for what is best for the “asset rich cash poor aged”, I guess they can’t make decisions for themselves.

    If they are asset rich they have choices and no doubt more than one asset.

    Gosh - If only we had a Labour govt they could make decision for “us” - forgive them Michael Joseph Savage for they know not what they do. Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise for you only vote Labour or sometimes party vote Green..
    My Swing Voter, why have you forsaken me?

    Things certainly get fairly wiggy pretty quickly.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1185 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to 3410,

    Mazda "Bongo Wagon" GSX Field Runner?

    FTW.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8313 posts Report Reply

  • Andre,

    Almost all older kiwis own their own homes. Means testing would cover other assets and investments and therefore would only affect a small percentage and wouldn't "drive people from their homes". Bad investment decisions would be more likely to cause the loss of the family home rather than a lack of super payouts for those targeted. A year targeting the top 20,000 pensioners would still only cover a week's worth of borrowing under the current government though.

    New Zealand • Since May 2009 • 269 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to DexterX,

    Elder abuse is often done by children - I wouldn’t think "the horrid class" you are imagining would get a look in.

    Seen it happening. Yes, the children were not blameless.

    You mean by liquid the stuff that evaporates in a downturn or crisis.

    No, I do not mean that. Cash, for instance, is liquid, and having a whole bunch of that should be in most portfolios. Stocks don't all "evaporate" - the stockmarket has rebounded fastest from the GFC. But yes, I'm no fan of people taking out naked puts or getting margin loans or any of that derivative nonsense, unless they make a fricken job out of understanding it, and even then....

    You have got to see the "irony" here

    No, I don't see the irony, just a bad joke. I meant "their working life", which is not their whole life by a long shot and I don't think that was really so unclear.

    Now we are speaking for what is best for the “asset rich cash poor aged”, I guess they can’t make decisions for themselves.

    They can, including very wrong decisions, at a time of life when they can ill afford to. You can't stop all the stupid things that old people do, but you certainly can mitigate some of it. If you've followed me at all, you'll realize I'm not even talking about the current bunch, for whom it is far too late for a compulsory super scheme to help. I'm talking about the retirees of the future, of which I am one.

    Gosh - If only we had a Labour govt they could make decision for “us”

    I don't think Labour has been advocating compulsory super, have they? I've got no connection to the party at all, and would be just as happy if the Nats could see reason. Unfortunately, they have shown antipathy to Kiwisaver, so I doubt that's ever going to happen, and think Labour a much likelier candidate to push for it. I don't really care - it's a good idea, whether or not any major party backs it.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8313 posts Report Reply

  • Che Tibby, in reply to Andre,

    Almost all older kiwis own their own homes.

    i would want to see numbers on that.

    the back of an envelope • Since Nov 2006 • 2024 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to BenWilson,

    I tend to agree by supporting the govt investing in the Cullen Fund. and people when they can looking at Kiwisaver - with a greater allocation of both invested in the NZ economy.

    Compulsion isn't a good thing for most people at various stages of their life - particularly those parts of it when they are on or earning close to the minimum adult wage.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1185 posts Report Reply

  • DexterX, in reply to Sacha,

    Dig.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 1185 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle, in reply to BenWilson,

    I actually think the antipathy to means testing goes to our stupidly skewed addiction to real estate.

    Can I have an antipathy to means testing because I think it's gross?

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3628 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    The Hatchback of Notre Dame...

    My sons names are Morris Oxford
    and Austin Cambridge.

    Dexter, good sturdy names - I'd probably lean towards Riley Elf & Wolseley Hornet, myself
    - if my genome were to be driving forward in another vehicle...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 4660 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward,

    Means-testing of super would have to kick in only after Kiwisaver had been made compulsory for long enough that reasonable nesteggs could be assumed. But it's a little absurd IMO that we are creating all these lovely Kiwisaver self-sufficient retirement savings and then continuing to just pay everyone the same universal pension even if they will have accumulated $1m in their Kiwisaver fund. It's unnecessary and economically crippling.

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1721 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Gareth Ward,

    Kiwisaver hasnt been around long enough for my generation (hint: born 1947) to accumlate anything. Especially if you're self-employed. Neither has my tribe's saving scheme, Whai Rawa, which specifically excluded OAPs.

    Yes, I did read your first sentence BUT it doesnt apply to my generation at all, and the fact is that a universal pension will *very likely not apply* to my siblings' children.

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    The Hatchback of Notre Dame...

    . . . not to be confused with the trouble-prone and unlamented Hillman Imp, once known in the trade as the Hillman Hump.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 3370 posts Report Reply

  • Gareth Ward, in reply to Islander,

    Kiwisaver hasnt been around long enough for my generation (hint: born 1947) to accumlate anything.

    Oh I totally agree - it probably needs at the very least a 20yr run-in - but I think you need to make the statements now, otherwise we end up in the same argument again in 15 years. You need to give long long notice given the long long nature of the decisions required.

    But I have to assume Cullen/Treasury et al always intended this with Kiwisaver - it does NOTHING to fix our Government pension blowout problems as it currently stands and only makes sense when it follows Australia's model and makes it compulsory and the univeral pension payout means-tested. Then it transfers the costs of my retirement off my children/grandchildren's general tax bills and recognises that I shouldn't need to receive a payout from the Government given I should be self-sufficient on the savings I've made. Make it a genuine safety net for those who haven't been able to accumulate the savings they've needed for retirement and not a general payout of our grandchildren's tax take to the Don Brash's and Alan Gibb's of the world.

    The necessary delay is also a huge driver for continuing smoothed prefunding of Super via the Cullen Fund btw - that is what will help in around 15 years or so when the bulge hits under this alleged social contract...

    Auckland, NZ • Since Mar 2007 • 1721 posts Report Reply

  • giovanni tiso, in reply to Gareth Ward,

    But it’s a little absurd IMO that we are creating all these lovely Kiwisaver self-sufficient retirement savings and then continuing to just pay everyone the same universal pension even if they will have accumulated $1m in their Kiwisaver fund. It’s unnecessary and economically crippling.

    Means testing is like user pays. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Guarantee a decent minimum to everybody, including the CEO of Telecom, and incentivise people to supplement that. Getting people to save and then take away what they would have got if they hadn't is just wrong.

    Wellington • Since Jun 2007 • 7351 posts Report Reply

  • Islander, in reply to Joe Wylie,

    Struth, they were awful wee cars..my mother, who bought it after she sold the Humber Super Snipe, castigated herself for being stupid She wasnt of course – she had been persuaded that the Gimp could get to Oamaru & back on a third of the fuel the Snipe would use.
    She said that the first time she out her foot down, she realised why: the Snipe would surge forward like a shark that’s just sniffed blood, and the Simp putt-putt-putted painfully slowly up towards the 60mph line – and then wouldnt really go any faster.
    She quickly sold it for a Mk 10 Zephyr (I think it was a Mk 10) automatic that could truly fly – the 1st vehicle I ever did a ton in-

    Big O, Mahitahi, Te Wahi … • Since Feb 2007 • 5643 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Islander,

    She quickly sold it for a Mk 10 Zephyr (I think it was a Mk 10) automatic that could truly fly – the 1st vehicle I ever did a ton in-

    LOL. Nice. And I thought the cliches about Maori and their Zephyrs was all bs. I'm not sure when my first ton was, eyes were usually glued to the road. I think it was a rental car somewhere between Wellington and Auckland, aged 15, with some seppo sleeping in the car. It was dubious which of us was the more dangerous driver - he kept forgetting what side of the car he was on.

    First time I topped 200km/h, was in Germany. It wasn't half as exciting. I was one of the slow ones.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 8313 posts Report Reply

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