The marketplace of ideas is the place where we decide that Paul Henry's suggestion that Anand Satyanand isn't a real New Zealander is false,?

We need to be responsible for our ideas. If I advocate an idea that some people find wrong or reprehensible, I need to accept that people may come to see me as wrong or reprehensible, especially if I hold many?

I may not agree with what Paul Henry said, but I will defend to the death my right to say that he's a cunt for saying it.

Thanks for the laugh – I needed that!

but we do that by attacking the idea, not by attacking Paul Henry.

I sort of thought the idea was that it was so self-evidently obvious the GG is a 'real New Zealander', whatever one means by that, that saying it at all (and, moreover, defending it) spoke to Henry's?

Henry incited racism and bigotry. He's a heavily influential character?

* applauds Sean's comment enthusiastically *

But hey, even the marketplace of ideas has a $2 Shop.

Right on! Thanks for this. A Malcolm Tuckeresque fusion of righteous argument and Olympian swearing.

But ... you didn't get the memo about Public Address Newspeak, where hereafter "cunt" => "twatcock"? (Also, FYI, we have always been at war?

I think New Zealanders don't quite get this, because they have no (recent) folk memory of race and immigration riots or large-scale ethnic conflict. Inciting the attitudes that lead in that direction...

Caleb: I'm going to call "theatre" on that, even though I know you're coming from a good place.?

The marketplace of ideas is the place where we decide that Paul Henry's suggestion that Anand Satyanand isn't a real New Zealander is false, but we do that by attacking the idea, not by attacking Paul Henry.

That might make sense if Henry's attack on Satyanand had been a 'suggestion',?

As it is, all that's apparent is that you seem rather squeamish about Henry being called out for the cynical racist that he's shown himself to be.

Excuse me? I'm sure Graeme can defend his own honour, but did I hear you just call him a racist enabler?

Jokes aside, I do believe in the right to free speech

(emphasis mine) no you don't.

free speech is a right with which you either agree, or disagree.

you believe in the tooth fairy. or santa. this whole "i believe" thing kind of gives me the shits.

The marketplace of ideas is the place where we decide that Paul Henry's suggestion that Anand Satyanand isn't a real New Zealander is false, but we do that by attacking the idea, not by attacking Paul Henry.

Paul Henry's suggestion and behaviour introduce, into the marketplace of ideas, the idea?

As it is, all that's apparent is that you seem rather squeamish about Henry being called out for the cynical racist that he's shown himself to be.

Call him what you like. Keith too. I'm not going to try to stop either you. Just don't defend those personal attacks as?

you believe in the tooth fairy. or santa.

Now, about that...

There are a number of good reasons for attacking people directly, and for attacking Paul Henry in particular, but such attacks are the antithesis of the marketplace of ideas.

When Henry's called out, it's an attack. Yet when Henry takes a swipe at Satyanand, it's a "suggestion". Have to 'fess?

We expect political neutrality and a respect for people from a state broadcaster.

ORLY, Cecelia? I didn't notice Paul Henry come lurching out of the Republican closet, and to be frank I don't come away from One News feeling as if my intelligence has gotten any respect whatsoever. Political neutrality?

The marketplace of ideas is the place where we decide that Paul Henry's suggestion that Anand Satyanand isn't a real New Zealander is false, but we do that by attacking the idea, not by attacking Paul Henry.

Hmmm. I suppose reasonable people could disagree as to whether Henry was actually?

I don?t think you can blame people, Graeme, for disliking the man as well as his words. I feel kind of bad about the witchhunty nature of the clamour against him but he brought it on himself.

I'm not blaming people. I'm saying that manifesting that dislike by calling up?

Political neutrality is not about political speech you happen to like or agree with.

True but I was trying to say that Henry didn't really have freedom of speech. Such freedom is always tempered.

And Henry is a National party supporter isn't he? I don't think he quite succeeded in?

Paul Henry does have the legal?

And Henry is a National party supporter isn't he? I don't think he quite succeeded in remaining neutral on TVNZ.

Celia: Let's put this baby to bed right now. Paul Henry was the National candidate in Wairarapa eleven years ago. I don't know who TVNZ employees "support" politically, and frankly?

You know what should really offend people about Henry's snide bitch about Satyanand not being a "real New Zealander"? By any sane measure, it was a flat out lie.

Really? I should be offended by a lie on TV and not be offended by promotion of racsim? Cause like if?

And honestly, I don't see much evidence that Henry was more or less of a douche-dildo towards Key than he was when Helen Clark was in the same seat.

I think Henry has a markedly more matey and convivial on-screen relationship with Key than he ever did with Clark, but?

Really? I should be offended by a lie on TV and not be offended by promotion of racsim?

Deal with the text, Bart, and please don't put anything in my mouth without asking. (I will also require a nice dinner and dancing afterwards. Foreplay, I can do without.)

Yes, I?

That's an argument — but without kicking over that particular hornets nest, wasn't that exactly what so folks were saying about Boobquake? That's not serious "political speech" – it's adolescent exhibitionism to give the blokes a thrizzle.

But there clearly was political thought informing Boobquake. It expressed ideas. It was?

I'm saying that manifesting that dislike by calling up sponsors telling them you'll boycott their hotel/whatever is bad for free speech,

Perhaps the very notion of sponsorship is bad for free speech. Ideas with majoritarian appeal are privileged over other ones by a tiny cabal of capitalists who hope that?

I think Henry has a markedly more matey and convivial on-screen relationship with Key than he ever did with Clark

I'll grant you that — I think Key has a "markedly more matey and convivial on-screen relationship" with everyone. Suspect that has more to do with their respective temperaments than?

I'm saying that manifesting that dislike by calling up sponsors telling them you'll boycott their hotel/whatever is bad for free speech, and that Keith's use of the marketplace of ideas to defend that manifestation is misplaced.

I don't agree. Henry has a platform that magnifies his speech. If he often?

wasn't that exactly what so folks were saying about Boobquake? That's not serious "political speech"

It was a deliberately frivolous, well thought-out, response to something that, as Lucy said of PH, was so utterly obviously stupid it felt wrong to dignify it with a serious response.

And yes, I think?

Henry's series of comments were more like an ADHD run than an offering in the marketplace of ideas.

That's good.

But don't his comments arise from his beliefs and values? And if you look at Kiwi Blog, aren't certain beliefs and values more aligned to National? Isn't the discussion on?

There are a number of good reasons for attacking people directly, and for attacking Paul Henry in particular, but such attacks are the antithesis of the marketplace of ideas.

Eh, I'm not so sure. If Paul Henry had made a structured, well-formed argument about why Sir Anand didn't look and?

And if you look at Kiwi Blog, aren't certain beliefs and values more aligned to National?

I should probably just let Craig answer this, but I really don't think KiwiBlog is in any way representative of National or its supporters.

In the very same interview with the PM that he's got into hot water over and we are all talking about...... he was also heavily biased towards John Banks... He spoke to the PM about how Len Brown seemed to be leading the polls and?

KiwiBlog is in any way representative of National or its supporters.

Farrar is a former National party staffer.

His media treatment is based on his status as a National insider.

National feed Farrar with talking points.

His company, Curia, largely subsists on government and party funding to do polling.

I'm not trying to make you angry Craig.

You're doing a splendid job of it, nonetheless. I don't think it would be terribly fair to tar every Labour supporter with the same brush as the little charmer who called me a Uncle Tom house nigger over at the Standard. Lynn?

But if we are going to accept the notion of corporate sponsorship, why should we in the least worry about sponsors being told that their money is not yielding the result they wanted?

Because of the other ways this can be used. Because punishing Heritage Hotels for something Paul Henry?

But ... you didn't get the memo about Public Address Newspeak, where hereafter "cunt" => "twatcock"?

Interestingly, to me Paul Henry isn't a 'cunt', which implies some sort of competent cunning and nastiness. He's absolutely a 'dick', as it's kind of incompetent, childish behaviour. I get no association at all?

I get no association at all with 'twatcock', other than it sounds like a sort of small bird.

Which sounds like spatchcock, which is a poussin, which sounds like ...

If we really start holding advertisers to account for the content of programmes or channels on which their ads appear, then they will be more circumspect about placing ads, and some voices may be lost.

The counter-argument is that these businesses probably did quite well out of being associated with?

The counter-argument is that these businesses probably did quite well out of being associated with Henry and his somewhat nasty success.

People were calling for a complete boycott of TVNZ for what Paul Henry said. If something like that ever works, or even looks like it might work, TVNZ will?

But ... you didn't get the memo about Public Address Newspeak, where hereafter "cunt" => "twatcock"?

Truth be told, I am a conservative swearer. Liberal, perhaps, only in quantity.

you believe in the tooth fairy. or santa. this whole "i believe" thing kind of gives me the shits

Well, I believe that freedom of speech is a good thing that should be protected at a constitutional level by the state.

Deal with the text, Bart, and please don't put anything in my mouth without asking. (I will also require a nice dinner and dancing afterwards. Foreplay, I can do without.)

mmmkay but I just don't dance.

Fair cop, you didn't say you weren't offended by the racism and it's pretty?

Just don't defend those personal attacks as being the marketplace of ideas in action.

Of course my argument isn't *actually* "Paul Henry is a cunt". My point is that "Paul Henry is a cunt" and Paul Henry's comments have the exact same status.

Both are stupid personal attacks, but freedom?

I should probably just let Craig answer this, but I really don't think KiwiBlog is in any way representative of National or its supporters.

I think it's representative of a subset of National supporters, in the same way that The Standard represents a subset of Labour supporters, and the Tea?

If we really start holding advertisers to account for the content of programmes or channels on which their ads appear, then they will be more circumspect about placing ads, and some voices may be lost.
... it will be bad for free speech.

Um I think I have trouble with?

Well, I believe that freedom of speech is a good thing that should be protected at a constitutional level by the state.

hmmm... still not convinced. i believe you mean "i think that freedom...".

or "i reason that freedom...".

you need to stretch the definition of "idea" quite a bit to include both what Henry said and your gynaecological rejoinder.

Which is not far from (one of the things) I was saying: calling Paul Henry names is not the marketplace of ideas in action.

The marketplace for ideas doesn't?

When one?

People were calling for a complete boycott of TVNZ for what Paul Henry said. If something like that ever works, or even looks like it might work, TVNZ will become much more conservative.

Not very many people, and I don't think the idea makes sense at all. But people have?

He had a forum/platform that others did not, and did not use it wisely.

I myself was evidently one of the minority to communicate "Good riddance"?

But it is a flat-out commercial reality that sponsors may decide their brand is no longer served by a particular association. That's a consequence. And I do sometimes think that people arguing in favour of free speech are really arguing for speech without consequences.

And it may also be some?

Picking up what Gio said about the unsatisfactory notion of a marketplace of ideas, the offerings we currently enjoy are already arbitrarily limited and homogeneous.

You might enjoy the internet, it is somewhat less limited.

And it may also be some commercial reality that lead facebook(?) to delete photos of women breast-feeding their babies, but just because you can still breast-feed ...

They were accountable for that twitchy decision — and were flayed for it — and sponsors are accountable for any decision they make?

Why is Henry's rude name a good in the market of ideas and someone calling him a cunt in response not?

It's not. I was thinking more of the comments about the Governor-General. Probably not an idea either, but closer than what Keith said.

On the pronunciation of Sheila Dikshit's?

Why is Henry's rude name a good in the market of ideas and someone calling him a cunt in response not?

I suspect it's because the Henryites/Teabaggers think they have a monopoly on 'political incorrectness'. When they find their monopoly under threat, they'll often resort to Reductio ad __(insert scapegoat?

I wonder what people disappointed with the Government for not acknowledging the winner of Nobel Peace Prize (presumably for fear of offending the Chinese Government) think of the Government's official apology to India.

Not seeing the relationship. I thought it was more sad nobody felt it necessary to acknowledge the?

It's not. I was thinking more of the comments about the Governor-General. Probably not an idea either, but closer than what Keith said.

Actually I agree with Graeme in that "the GG [and by inference, people who look like him] isn't a New Zealander" is part of the marketplace of?

...punishing Heritage Hotels for something Paul Henry said over which they had no control (and shouldn't have control) isn't fundamentally different from arranging a boycott on Canwest/TV3/C4 for airing an episode of South Park about the abuse by Catholic clergy, or someone else for airing pro-homosexual something propaganda?

It is not a guarantee of employment – especially when the substance of the employment *is* speech. Paul Henry is not a drycleaner. He gets paid to say things. To suggest that what he says should not affect his employment is nonsensical.

Now THAT I DO like!!

Can we use?

On the pronunciation of Sheila Dikshit's surname ...

Let's be clear: He repeatedly mispronounced it, then rendered it as "Dick-in-shit" and then declared it was an appropriate name for an Indian. It was pretty bad.

So yes if Paul Henry is deeply offensive then it is appropriate to communicate that to both his employers TVNZ and to the advertisers who provide the money to employ him.

No, this disturbs me. I think it is treading on very dangerous ground.

It would create a tyranny of?

...sponsors already set the boundaries of speech in a sponsored broadcast.

Then that needs to be made very clear – not just in some small print, or rapidly read "afterthought" in a small voice at the end of the broadcast.

And we need a public register of lobbyists in the?

Well, I believe that freedom of speech is a good thing that should be protected at a constitutional level by the state.

hmmm... still not convinced. i believe you mean "i think that freedom...".
or "i reason that freedom...".

Oh, I dunno. I think we can be a bit sensitive?

...sponsors already set the boundaries of speech in a sponsored broadcast.

Then that needs to be made very clear – not just in some small print, or rapidly read "afterthought" in a small voice at the end of the broadcast.

And we need a public register of lobbyists in the?

This isn't particularly aimed at you, Petra

I didn't take it personally, so don't worry about that at all. :)

I'm really enjoying the way y'all are making me think. It's making my head hurt a little, I cannot deny, but I'm loving every minute of it!

So thanks!

And?

To be fair, John Key didn't want to congratulate the Nobel Peace Prize winner as he hadn't been briefed

You also have to ask why MFAT hadn't prepared briefings on the nominees prior to the announcement of the winner, or are all the staff working on McCully's destruction of our?

This is awesome. I think I'm growing. :)

Awww, nice.

To be fair, John Key didn't want to congratulate the Nobel Peace Prize winner as he hadn't been briefed. Which is fair enough- you never know what kind of scoundrel this person might be.

Will Liu Xiaobo increase the rate which the CIA carries out bombing runs against Pakistani villagers??

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2010/press.html

So let's say October 9, NZ time. Saturday morning.

The Prime Minister was asked about it on Monday afternoon.

In between, he found the time to appear on "This is Your Life", go to Eden Park, and probably other?

And if I stood up in front of a Great Blend crowd and was an offensive twatcock — or even just pissed people off by being rubbish and boring — I wouldn't see Orcon coming back with its sponsor's chequebook next time.

To extend that analogy,
if you had no?

if you had no idea that what you said was offensive
and if your sponsor had no idea that what you said was offensive,

That's the thing, well for me anyway. They had no idea!
If your going to be offensive.....own it, I suppose...
I've got to think about it?

So would it have been ok if Oliver Driver had said it on Sunrise? (in a hypothetical world where?

if you had no idea that what you said was offensive

then you are probably not the best person to be ad-libbing in front of the nation.

Julie- I would say that TVNZ is perceived as representing the country (more so than TV3), because of its name, history, and apparent?

And it's worth thinking about why we would applaud Ben Gracewood or Paul Yandall quitting on principle after the hosts they worked with said offensive things — but not be comfortable when the sponsor that helps pay the most does the same thing.

I guess that's because Ben did it?

I hope this doesn't count as a derail, but I'm genuinely interested in the narrative that what Henry said was partly not ok because he was on TVNZ, the state-owned broadcaster.

So would it have been ok if Oliver Driver had said it on Sunrise? (in a hypothetical world where?

I'm sure?

I guess you get finicky about these things as a lawyer. You can't really use "PH is a @$%#" as a?

And when that happens, you really have nothing to say to each other, so you might as well call a cunt a cunt...

So it really is a case of stop wanking, you cocksuckers.
Thank you. Thought so.

Can there be such a thing as pure freedom? Pure freedom of speech? We have censorship; swear words are bleeped out in prime-time. We can?t commit slander.

I suppose there can be ?pure freedom of speech? if it is defined as the absence of those things. There?s no reason we?

Yeah. Ben didn?t wait until he could gage the reaction of the country over the remarks.

The timeline is fuzzy to me at this point, but Ben was the absolute first to step up and say "It's not OK", without test-polling or fear of consequences, right? Not a premeditated media-friendly?

But I digress.

I'm still kind of in awe about that. My cool brother! Outrocks the PM!

But has Ben congratulated Liu Xiaobo yet? I don't see evidence of it on his blog. How long must we be kept waiting?

Or we could talk about it some more, maybe so called axioms will diffuse over time.

You think? Check out today's 'race row' story about the fair-haired, fair-skinned Miss IndiaNZ winner. Her father is Fijian-Indian, her mother is reported to be... a New Zealander.

I'd say any 'teaching moments' have flown?

Ah but the vasectomy comment was made to deflect questions on something Key was uncomfortable about, being held accountable for massive cuts to early childhood education funding.

Thank you Julie . I'm not insane. We spend so much election time in tears about education and how much our kids need?

One of my best newest friends is a 4 year old whose recently been diagnosed with autism. They are a trying to get him to not so much deal with his little boy life but introduce consequences into it, as we all do.Paul Henry needs consequences introduced?

today's 'race row' story

At least they're having to resort to dredging up ones that happened some time ago.

Some taonga repelled me, as though there was a physical barrier I could not see.?

They're also polite things we have on PAS too, and I don't think saying one of the other commentators has a stick up their arse is warranted.

Thank you, Ben.

While we're on media making connections with the topic of the moment

As if it needed saying, I don't recommend that anyone read the Kiwiblog thread on Te Papa.

Normally I'd now be posting a slew of whacked-out quotes from the comments but there are some dumpsters even I won't?

As if it needed saying, I don't recommend that anyone read the Kiwiblog thread on Te Papa.

Normally I'd now be posting a slew of whacked-out quotes from the comments but there are some dumpsters even I won't dive in.

Well, of course, I had to. Favourite:

... this is?

But I did feel a wee bit squeamish at Margaret Mutu seeming to state belief as empirical fact.

You won't be putting your arse on my dinner table, right?

Man, I don't want to see your arse anywhere.

If you're not afraid of war ghosts entering your vagina, you can just decide to go ahead and go, right?

If you're not scared of war ghosts entering your vagina

If I had a vagina I would be disappointed someone is trying to scare me with it.

While we're on media making connections with the topic of the moment, Lynne Pope wrote an eloquent post yesterday about her own experience with the collection in question, in response to the Te Papa story.

I'm surprised no one (that I've seen) has made the connection with Virgin Mary in?

If you're not afraid of war ghosts entering your vagina, you can just decide to go ahead and go, right?

They should charge extra for that service.

I don't really have much time for the sorts of suspersition that are too easily foisted on others as though they were not?

They know that through art,music, comedy, novels and the occasional newspaper editorial. They know that religion shoud stay in the four walls of the church and do a little bit more?

Slightly different circumstances

Surely there's some difference between a public exhibit and an industry-only behind-the-scenes tour?

If you're not afraid of war ghosts entering your vagina, you can just decide to go ahead and go, right?

That seems to be the case, but it certainly wasn't obvious from the way Te Papa originally phrased it. Nor from some of the defense of that original phrasing.

I want something explained, though: the original phrasing was more of the 'ladybits = cooties' variety, yes? Why?

If I had a vagina I would be disappointed someone is trying to scare me with it.

I now have a mental picture of someone hiding behind a door sniggering with a six foot tall vagina, waiting to jump out at Jeremy.

I now have a mental picture of someone hiding behind a door sniggering with a six foot tall vagina, waiting to jump out at Jeremy.

That kind of sums up the old testament view on ladies.

What's notable is not the similarity with Paul Henry, but the differences. There's no statement from the organisers saying "If any of you chose to be offended, whatever." There is no statement from the PR spoke saying "Indians think like that, but not out?

Ms Lal, whose father is a Fiji Indian and mother a New Zealander

Ooh that is interesting. I wonder if her father is a New Zealander of Fijian Indian ethnicity? Or if he's actually a Fijian.

The timeline is fuzzy to me at this point, but Ben was the absolute first to step up and say "It's not OK", without test-polling or fear of consequences, right?

Very same day. I'm pretty sure the stuff news article on Ben's decision was the next main turn reported on,?

If Ms Lal had been excluded from the contest, for not "looking Indian", then that would be a legitimate story. But she wasn't.

If she had been discriminated?

I now have a mental picture of someone hiding behind a door sniggering with a six foot tall vagina, waiting to jump out at Jeremy.

Wait, what?

Oh, the other one...

You think? Check out today's 'race row' story about the fair-haired, fair-skinned Miss IndiaNZ winner. Her father is Fijian-Indian, her mother is reported to be... a New Zealander.

If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Herald being fed a patsy story by blondie's PR reps, who?

I would have been happier still if he had been described in more pejorative terms.

How about "a mental midget with the IQ of a fencepost"?

If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Herald being fed a patsy story by blondie's PR reps, who saw a golden (sorry) opportunity to get their client a nice big wedge of free exposure off the back of the Henry saga.

Probably nothing so organised as?

It's still a strange way to celebrate thousands of years of Indian culture by ligning up the?

If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Herald being fed a patsy story by blondie's PR reps, who saw a golden (sorry) opportunity to get their client a nice big wedge of free exposure off the back of the Henry saga.

In which case, it's worked.?

But I did feel a wee bit squeamish at Margaret Mutu seeming to state belief as empirical fact.

I trust Prof Mutu knows empirically that 80% of a whale's sperm doesn't get into his girlfriend and that's why the sea tastes salty. (Thank you, Jack Dee)

That's the categories. What a Monster.

I trust Prof Mutu knows empirically that 80% of a whale's sperm doesn't get into his girlfriend and that's why the sea tastes salty. (Thank you, Jack Dee)

Now all i'm thinking of is large pools of whale glue floating around the oceans, I'm not swimming this summer.

has precisely nothing to do with the Paul Henry fiasco

I thought the link to Paul Henry isn't the story itself but rather the way it was reported. ie. she doesn't look "Indian" because her mother is actually a "New Zealander". Or a "Kiwi" as the Capital Times had it.?

conscious falsification

With real harm to NZ's reputation. That's likely to affect whether people want to move here, study here (remember previous waves of reporting about anti-Asian racism) or visit us with their tourist dollars. And who pays for that?

We are islands in the south pacific who boldly tell the world how fresh and new we are in order to compete in their dollar games yet?

But that second link now has me wondering about Miss Beautiful Smile Lucy Russell...

Please note that Miss Lucy Russell is Miss Beautiful Skin. Miss Beautiful Smile was won by Miss Isha Shevde.

I now have a mental picture of someone hiding behind a door sniggering with a six foot tall vagina, waiting to jump out at Jeremy.

Putting two and two together...

Sacha:

With real harm to NZ's reputation. That's likely to affect whether people want to move here, study here (remember previous?

Opportunists don't mind whistling up the?

If you're not scared of war ghosts entering your vagina...

If I had a vagina I would be disappointed someone is trying to scare me with it.

I think it most apt that a discussion that began about freedom of speech and the marketplace of ideas has come to this?

Look a white,blue eyed Miss India winner in a beauty pageant is a story anywhere in the world. Celebrating Indian babes usually has a lot to do with their beautiful dark skin tones.

Actually, there's a whole motherload of touchy ethnic issues skimming under the surface there. Ever taken a?

That's the categories. What a Monster.

What no:

Miss Sogyny
Miss Conception
Miss Anthrope
Miss Behaving
Miss Feasance
Miss Apprehension
Miss Cegenation
Miss Fortune
Miss Smash
Miss Judged
Miss Shapen
Miss Stress
Miss Trussed
Miss Directed
Miss Tea-Eyed
Miss Understood
Miss Used

Niece work if you can get it....

Keeping it "Indian":

I recently watched Chris Rock's documentary 'Good Hair'. While the whole thing was pretty jaw-dropping, the sequences on hair weaves were something else....

In short, lots of Indian Hindu women shave their heads as a sign of devotion, and the hair is then sold to the US?

Now you have the Daily Telegraph in Britain declaring New Zealand at centre of another race row

Well, the Daily Telegraph can STFU and put it's own house in order before pointing the finger.

When I was over in the UK in July, they ran an unpleasant anti-gypsy story which?

But has Ben congratulated Liu Xiaobo yet? I don't see evidence of it on his blog. How long must we be kept waiting?

I've finally had time to be briefed by my media relations team, and have decided that going forward there will be synergies I can leverage from being?

Actually, there's a whole motherload of touchy ethnic issues skimming under the surface there

Absolutely.There is no Miss Perfect skin.

"Bolger: Telecom sale a mistake "

Jesus, Roger Douglas screwed up.

Remember being shocked whenever I came across it in D H Lawrence's work, but there was a wonderful bit of graffiti I saw in the?

You know, I think that saying that Paul Henry is a cunt is an entirely respectable product in the marketplace of ideas.

I suspect there's one or two feminists who'd be serving fresh hot "shut the fuck up" pies at their stalls in response to that notion.

I suspect there's one or two feminists who'd be serving fresh hot "shut the fuck up" pies at their stalls in response to that notion.

If you count certain "internet feminists" in the category , you'd probably find those stalls would be serving more pies than the White Lady 24/7.

(And also: I'm willing to call people `shit', `cock', `arsehole' and various other anatomical rude words. I don't think there's much of a reason to treat `cunt' differently from arsehole or cock, and I am rather suspicious of attempts to do so.)

I suspect there's one or two feminists who'd be serving fresh hot "shut the fuck up" pies at their stalls in response to that notion.

Craig: Despite what you think, sometimes, "cock" just isn't enough.

I usually try to stick to gender-neutral swearing. I love Deadwood, but shy away from using "cocksucker" in general discourse.

Recently, I've started to question the concept of politically correct?

"You motherfucking cunt", is fighting words , yet it makes no sense and is a historic result of ladyhating.

Yet as stand alone?

*Edit: Duh, in?

Craig: Despite what you think, sometimes, "cock" just isn't enough.

The answer to bad cock is more cock not less. Hey, don't knock it until you've tried it.

I usually try to stick to gender-neutral swearing. I love Deadwood, but shy away from using "cocksucker" in general discourse.

I blame?

There's one infamous scene where the c-bomb is most definitely dropped on a room full of men. And by a 13 year-old actress playing an eleven year old girl, to boot.

Kick-Ass is *trying* to be shocking, though. I think Ben's right that most Americans would be very hesitant to?

Citizens in socialist Cuba lose their own judgment of right or wrong because they have grown up in a society where they have been taught to spout?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UT02--Ijdc

Here,?

I like "arsehole" because everybody has one . . .

Only those "boring, ugly, serious people" who don't happen to be ostomates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxESvUdIUuE

It was niggling at me as I read the whole thread: we use sex words to badmouth others (and I include myself in this – may have started?

Deborah Hill Cone on Paul Henry and freedom of speech

Poor Debs doesn't understand the difference between a conversation and a broadcast (to say nothing of most other matters). Mind you, that has been a long-standing problem with her 'columns'..

Ask the Outrageous Fortune team, they just got a slap fom the BSA for using the c word last Tuesday. Cheryl was referring to Draska.

That feels like an entirely fair description of Draska, surely?

Poor Debs doesn't understand the difference between a conversation and a broadcast (to say nothing of most other matters). Mind you, that has been a long-standing problem with her 'columns'..

I have no doubt she'd understand the difference perfectly well if instead it had been Hone Harawira who had been?

Freedom of speech is being free to say what you want without interference; not from the police, not from lynch mobs, not from your neighbours. They don't get to arrest you, strip you of any of your other legal rights,?

But then, Americans are just weird about swearing. I am having to practice some fairly hefty self-censorship.

We told you! Didn't we tell you? When I said 'twat' in passing in that class discussion, lord, the horrified silence...

(My FB status updates often include variants of 'goddammit' just to fuck?

I'd recommend you see Kick-Ass some time

I recommend it, too. but that's because it's one of the best films I've seen in a long time, and it made me laugh like a drain.

I give you Deborah Hill Cone...

You can have her back.
Another "free speech = freedom from being criticised if I say something stupid" argument. Plus a bunch of bizarre observations thrown in.

Anyone interest in a real example of infringement of free expression should watch The Court Report episode?

Poor Debs doesn't understand

I think you could probably have just stopped there.

I do feel (very slightly) bad when I mock the Conester, because it feels like giving a hefty kicking to a yappy puppy*. Also, my mother taught me not to mock the afflicted.

But she's more or?

They're good, sharp, short, percussive words, with good hard consonants in them at the right place, like most good swearwords are. To a certain extent, what they refer?

I recommend it, too. but that's because it's one of the best films I've seen in a long time, and it made me laugh like a drain.

And for the ultimate in comedic F-bombs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSWUWPx2VeQ

I recommend [Kick Ass], too. but that's because it's one of the best films I've seen in a long time, and it made me laugh like a drain.

Seconded. (Well, thirded, I suppose.) Funny, great action scenes, and a good moral for the kids too (who couldn?t see it at?