It's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a big fat patsy, generating outrage so that whatever the Tax Working Group report suggests will look moderate and sensible by comparison.

Yes that conclusion virtually leapt off the TV screen at me, as I listened to first Don then Bill.?

Re-brash (verb): to re-hash failed right-wing policies.

The government shouldn?t even aim for goals like ?more savings ..

Indeed. It's as if the authors believe that we should be actively discouraged from saving.

Because when I read the bullet point list, I couldn't help but wonder exactly what the point of the whole thing was.

I haven't bothered reading the report, but did they include any evidence that their suggestions would actually achieve what I thought?

I haven't bothered reading the report, but did they include any evidence that their suggestions would actually achieve what I thought was the goal – parity with Australia by 2025?

If we sacrifice enough poor people to the Gods of the Market, they will gaze favourably upon our unworthy selves,?

It?s hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a big fat patsy, generating outrage so that whatever the Tax Working Group report suggests will look moderate and sensible by comparison.

Maybe, but I'm starting to think that Key's version of National is sticking to its "Don't rock the boat"?

Labour leader Phil Goff said the task force was a waste of time and public money. Progressive Party leader Jim Anderton described it as "the return of dracula".

The thing is that the ideas underlying their recommendations are based on pure Monetarism, the belief in the rationality of the market and conceiving of people as "Rational Utitlity Maximsers". All crap, and?

I haven't seen any indication that they'll try to get away with them this early

What, ACC not a clue? Let's see what the Tax Working Group comes up with. Probably more magical thinking that if you let rich folk pay less tax they will invest the bounty in productive?

The task force report cost $150,000.
The task force has a total $477,000 budget for the next three years.

What is the economic value of an economist?

For the public health and education services the taskforce would restore contestable funding and competitive provision, much as occurred in health in the 1990s but was resisted by the?

There is no serious analysis in the report about how this hard-right prescription will cure our economy. Brash and his cohorts spout this rubbish as if?

targeting doctors' and pharmaceutical subsidies to the lower paid.

Look. I have spent the last six months gloating (unconscionably, probably) to Americans about most of our prescriptions costing three dollars. Stop *trying to make our system more like the shitty American one*, you idiots!

all-powerful teacher unions

And it seems?

Key will not be seduced by the taskforce's talk of "successful" political leaders being the ones capable of finding ways of taking the public with them when they make "courageous" reforms. Neither will he be fooled by the report's assertion that the apparent belief that far-reaching economic reform?

I am consoled by two words: corned beef.

Hey, Sacha — Kiwibog-grade dick more. How about sticking to critiquing the report and avoiding the cheap, random shots at the man's personal life?

So why don't local employers pay more for skilled labour?

Because the pure market approach for some reason should never apply to labour.

Brash and his cohorts spout this rubbish as if its truth is self-evident and doesn't need to be justified.

Quite. Bryan Gould was forceful and reasoned opposition?

Craig, anyone purporting to tell the rest of the country how we should live is open to having his own description of his sorry life repeated.

Dear Moderators: Ian Wishart has hacked Sacha's profile. Help!

Still, nice to know I get a pass to gratuitously bring up the Labour health?

And a side note to the gentlemanly Geoff?

but why? What are the structural reasons for that?

Or the question could be: what are the cultural reasons?
*When I say culture, I don't mean Kapa haka, by the way.

And what's the value of a neolib cheerleader? Business roundtabler Roger Kerr on RNZ this morning has clearly not learned a thing from his existence on the planet.

Never a plutonium-powered DeLorean when you need one, so it can be set on a one-way trip.

I have an idea: if?

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a big fat patsy, generating outrage so that whatever the Tax Working Group report suggests will look moderate and sensible by comparison.

That was my conclusion as well Keith. I was reminded of the 1994 Todd Taskforce on tertiary education funding?

So why don't local employers pay more for skilled labour? Everybody knows that you get paid more elsewhere — but why? What are the structural reasons for that?

It seems largely to have been an issue since Black Monday and the bankruptcy of DFC. Much of the investment in NZ?

"...if you let rich folk pay less tax they will invest the bounty in productive enterprise rather than german cars, italian marble and coastal real estate."

If I was to enjoy a tax break of Brahsian proportions, I would pretty much follow option B.

Pay down mortgage.
Buy nice?

Assuming I had any money left for such frivolity after paying for privatized social services, of course.

I think the idea is that you won't. But it'll be better for you.

Dear Moderators: Stewie Griffin has hacked Ranapia's profile.
Oh. hang on, that was ages ago.

Steve: If I make any gratuitously irrelevant dick cracks about someone's personal life, then try and excuse myself by pulling out Ian Wishart's default excuse for his panty-sniffing prickery, please call me out on it.?

This thing really is shaping up as a waste of public money.

Seriously, WTF ?

Apparently this Task Force was a sop to ACT as part of their support agreement (hence the pre-load with ACT ideologues), so I'm not overly concerned that?

My favourite recommendation is that to increase wages to catch up with Australia, we need to reduce the minimum wage

Well, if there are a lot of very rich and very poor people, the average wage could still catch up, right? I guarantee they're talking mean, not median, when they?

Imagine how much better our economic figures would look if we just left the unducated poor to starve and die...

Or leave them to get angry and close the wealth gap with AK47s.

And it seems pretty clear that they're spoiling for a fight over pay with the teachers next year. Joy.

Please....my holidays are coming up shortly. Don't spoil them for me by having to think about next year. It could be a shitstorm.

Please....my holidays are coming up shortly. Don't spoil them for me by having to think about next year. It could be a shitstorm.

Sorry. The person with whom I share my house is in the same boat.

Or leave them to get angry and close the wealth gap with AK47s.?

Well, there's that theory that welfare provisions are deliberately miserly, but carefully arranged by the powers-that-be so that they aren't miserly *enough* to cause armed revolution... it's a fine line to walk!

Of course, you need to starve the poor into submission, because they're little better than animals who will?

This thing really is shaping up as a waste of public money.

I'd call it public money inappropriately spent, on achieving dubious objectives. But money well spent, if you want to the appeal to a large chunk of the half sozzled electorate.

Well, there's that theory that welfare provisions are deliberately miserly, but carefully arranged by the powers-that-be so that they aren't miserly *enough* to cause armed revolution... it's a fine line to walk!

There are many groups of people around the world, that are economically repressed to the point of starvation,?

I will be at the do on Friday night, staying over for The Civic tour on Saturday.

Hope your still around when I get there, I'll be late 10.30ish I hope.
Keeping myself off the starvation/gun wielding revolutionary line.

Slightly OT but if any of you have not yet read Paul Krugman's takedown of the true believers of the Chicago School, then may I recommend you take the time:?

– Comprehensive Capital Tax (land included)
– A NZ$10,000 guaranteed minimum income to replace all benefits
– Flat income tax of 25% on personal and company earnings
– Revenue neutral

The benefit proposal won't work as proposed — I?

I have an idea: if we want to catch up with Australia, why don't we start by looking at what they are actually doing? They don't have low taxes, low government spending, or minimal regulation. Nor have they slashed spending on health and education.

Indeed. Their funding for Commonwealth (of?

- A NZ$10,000 guaranteed minimum income to replace all benefits

Wow, the harpist cycling woman will be happy. Can somebody enlighten me on what is the current level of benefits, say for somebody with a permanent disability? I wonder how much it would come to once all the bits are?

Can somebody enlighten me on what is the current level of benefits, say for somebody with a permanent disability?

Current rates for Invalid's benefit. Accomodation Supplement should be added to that; rates not available online.

Suffice to say that $10k pa would represent a significact cut in most (almost all?)?

The benefit proposal won't work as proposed — I doubt Morgan understands what the system does — but the guaranteed minimum income idea is interesting.

I agree, guaranteed minimum income is an idea I really like. His number is odd though – $10k a year is under the maximum unemployment?

Suffice to say that $10k pa would represent a significact cut in most (all?) cases.

Some DPB payments are under $200 a week. All unemployment benefits would increase, by between $73 and $9 dollars – the unemployment benefit is calculated on an age discriminatory basis, because being 24 is clearly?

Some DPB payments are under $200 a week.

Okay, but how many would not also receive an accomodation benefit. You really have to include that in the calculation.

(and ta!)

Accommodation Supplement

Isn't that otherwise known as the residential real-estate investors incentive?

- A NZ$10,000 guaranteed minimum income to replace all benefits

Wow, I just had a great idea. lets divide the country up and have a communist block, probably the south island, because the cars wont rust out like?

(and ta!)

Thats the wittiest Gravitar on PAS, genius.

lets divide the country up and have a communist block, probably the south island, because the cars wont rust out like they do in the north. And the south would make a better back drop for producing bleak, low budget film dramas.

Tear down this... strait?

Tear down this... strait?

I think we can work with that. How about: "The strait divide"

Only problem, South New Zealand sounds a bit funny.

genius.

*blush*

More Oram on Nine to Noon: the report is "absolutely devoid of any analysis of what's gone on in the New Zealand economy or the world economy in the last 20 years."

This thing really is shaping up as a waste of public money.

I can't have been the only?

...and decide that it actually was some sort of bizarre joke.

Too right, there isn't much lateral thinking involved. What if the Australians went broke? then we would be the winners, and our live would have meaning.

[Edit] but we have pay parity with Ireland, don't we? are we not?

Thats the wittiest Gravitar on PAS, genius.

Damn straight. Er ...

But sadly, I think we could be witnessing another wave of "mood for change" marketing.

it now seems they have better work Christmas parties than us as well.

The amount of money spent on workplace Christmas parties is one more reason to look across the ditch?

a report yesterday by the Don Brash-led 2025 Taskforce said we have smaller houses, die sooner, have fewer cars and televisions and drink less fruit juice than our Aussie counterparts.

OMG we need to close the fruit juice gap too!

I'm getting really angry about those Australians having more stuff?

But they have all the uranium. Bastards!

Bastards alright.

OMG we need to close the fruit juice gap too!

Yeah, but there is a significant beer gap, bread gap, chocolate gap, icecream gap, in fact just about every type of everyday food that I can think of, New Zealand does as well or better. They do have better Italian,?

Also, Australian houses are a huge pain to heat and cool, one of the reasons with coal-fired electricity they have the highest emissions of any developed country.

Oh, wait...

What can we beat the world at?

Being apologetic.

"New Zealand: We're really sorry about that."

Being apologetic.

"New Zealand: We're really sorry about that."

Anything boutique has the ability to earn respect and
with that reputation. It does depend on your marketing or in a casual way is a nice lifestyle. Quality every time in a healthy way will create value to product and not?

Ozzies go in and start by saying "mate, this thing is fuckin' rooted" etc.

That is probably what made leave. I felt always slightly crude for listening to an, ingrained ignorance/disrespect, for others.I think if there is a problem, it should be sorted immediately but how about less of the?

(One of my brothers, based in Oz, actually *said *this! O, with the addendum – "I'm sorry mate, but this thing" (etc.)

Also, Australian houses are a huge pain to heat and cool, one of the reasons with coal-fired electricity they have the highest emissions of any developed country.

I believe Canada now takes the prize of highest emissions per capita. Thanks to plenty of coal-fired electricity, gas-heated homes, and ...?

I can't have been the only to read all the 35 points with an increasing sense of open-mouth horror

Read the whole report though, it's intriguing. It seems to me that some (undoubtedly right-wing economist) boffins wrote the bulk of it, but then somebody (presumedly Brash) took a very partisan?

Read the whole report though, it's intriguing.

I read the executive summary, then the main body of the document, in that order. If anything, reading the main body of the report made me more convinced the report's authors were batshit crazy. There was almost no serious analysis at all in?

If I wanted to live in a fucked up, polluted, redneck racist desert for the sake of a few more dollars, I would.

If I had a deep personal need to make huge amounts of money, I'd do it?

all the handwringing about how unambitious our entrepreneurs are, all wanting to retire to their baches and go fishing

Oh YES! I heard something to this effect on NatRad the other day and was very weirded out. 'Wait: there are people who think this is terrible, somehow? I think it's?

I'm off fishing now.

all the handwringing about how unambitious our entrepreneurs are, all wanting to retire to their baches and go fishing, which is to say redefining the parts of our national character that are most humane and admirable as being a problem

In the wake of recent opinion by NZTE's chief economist, Gareth?

redefining the parts of our national character that are most humane and admirable as being a problem.

This is very true – but the flip-side holds: we need to understand that if our national character is not to generate wealth, then as a nation we simply won't have the tax?

Spot on.

Maybe (self-appointed) Bishop Brian should have been talking about dosh with his "Enough is enough" slogan. But I don't think he sees it like that for all but the very largest values of 'enough'.

The very thought of "catching up with Australia" makes me feel?

Maybe (self-appointed) Bishop Brian should have been talking about dosh with his "Enough is enough" slogan

I passed a mailbox yesterday that said:

NO JUNK MAIL
ESPECIALLY DESTINY CHURCH

Also, it's not as if wanting to build an empire always ends terribly well. It's right there in the metaphor!

John Hayes has the ambition. The head of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee wants to start by reclaiming the Pacific.

I know Tony Smale, the person whose research the NZTE report relies on, and I?ve heard him speak twice on these issues.

He is not advocating an abandonment of our lifestyle aspirations. He?

Part of this is because of our national psyche and tall-poppy syndrome: we don?t do enough to encourage or celebrate business success, and are openly hostile to people with wealth. Our heroes are mostly sportspeople.

Well, except for Peter Jackson — who was colossally ambitious (and often told that he?

Satisficing is the technical term for what we often refer to as the bach, boat and BMW phenomena. It is probable that satisficing, that can be described as the struggle?

Well, except for Peter Jackson

Indeed. The report isn't saying we don't have any successful people. We just don't have enough businesses making an impact globally.

Part of this is because of our national psyche and tall-poppy syndrome: we don?t do enough to encourage or celebrate business success, and are openly hostile to people with wealth.?

we don?t do enough to encourage or celebrate business success

Aren't we one of the easiest countries, regulations-wise, to do business in in the whole wide wacky world?

are openly hostile to people with wealth

I don't agree, since a bunch of people seem to have swallowed a whole lot?

we don?t do enough to encourage or celebrate business success, and are openly hostile to people with wealth.

I don't think this is true; we're hostile towards a lot of our top business people, but that's because most of them are evil thieves. Self-made guys like Bob Jones, Sam Morgan,?

Part of this is because of our national psyche and tall-poppy syndrome: we don?t do enough to encourage or celebrate business success, and are openly hostile to people with wealth. Our heroes are mostly sportspeople.

As a result, our businesspeople don?t generally create large companies, take risks, or invest hugely?

Amidst her despair at Key's lack of resolute ambition to reimpose the glories of the 80s and 90s...

God, every time I hear that I want to finally head-butt my desk into oblivion. I don't know if Fran was paying any attention, but folks found Labour's "John Key = Ruth?

For me hostility to "people of wealth" (great phrase, with its echoes of?

Have faith in this medicine, says Dr Brash, and the gap will close. Trying to explain why these drugs didn't work the first time round, the taskforce claims "the reforms of the 1980s and early 1990s represented a very significant step forward" but?

I don't think this is true; we're hostile towards a lot of our top business people, but that's because most of them are evil thieves.

In saying that didn't you just prove my point?

Aren't we one of the easiest countries, regulations-wise, to do business in in the whole wide?

Brash, Fran O'Sullivan et al are insisting that cutting spending back to 29% of GDP is no big deal, since that's what it was in 2005, and that this would allow the government to cut taxes to 20%.

The thing is, all of our?

If we want productivity, then it makes sense to have workplaces try and squeeze more of it out of less hours. If they can't do it in 40, then they're not trying hard enough.

Of course, Brash's mob was the lot that got rid?

But there's no question a widespread disdain for businesspeople (as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread) creates a disincentive for some people to try harder.

OK, a) I don't think there is a widespread disdain for businesspeople, just asshole ones; and b) even if your assertion is?

If we want productivity, then it makes sense to have workplaces try and squeeze more of it out of less hours. If they can't do it in 40, then they're not trying hard enough.

Of course, Brash's mob was the lot that got rid?

But there's no question a widespread disdain for businesspeople (as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread) creates a disincentive for some people to try harder.

And surely the problem is whether we are entreprenurial enough, not how we feel about businesspersons. Because so long as there's no?

OK, a) I don't think there is a widespread disdain for businesspeople, just asshole ones;

I read and hear a lot of unflattering stuff spoken about people with money. Some of it is deserved, but not all of it.

Michael Cullen's "rich prick" comment about John Key is one of?

Ooh, O'Sullivan's stablemate Rudman goes for the jugular.

Wow — if you're going to be at Emma's book launch tonight, you might like to ask my partner how much stock he puts in Rudder's analytical skills, at least when it comes to pontificating on rail and public transport. It won't?

I think that a good number of poor people actually resent being told to celebrate rich people. I know I do.

But if someone has achieved wealth through creating a successful business, then chances are they're probably also creating jobs and income for the country.

If they just inherited a?

BTW, I'm not suggesting we get the hankies out and start weeping for the poor dears. But the widespread disdain goes some way to explaining why many business people "satisfice".

To be fair, the idiotic 2025 report probably doesn't help, and probably convinces a few people there is some evil?

Any?

The thing is, all of our taxes were a lot higher in 2005 than they are today

I've asked this question in a few places – but nobody's been able to answer it (or even begin to engage in it).

ScottY: I've read that report more closely now, and I don't find too much to disagree with in its prescriptions, quite honestly. If I were the author, I would be annoyed with the media coverage which?

Not too many people have a problem with the likes of the La Grouws (Lockwood houses) and Gallaghers (electric fences) of this world. They built big businesses by hard graft, making real things and employing lots of people.

What we object to is?

if you're going to be at Emma's book launch tonight

Was. Can't believe I missed you again. Not saying Rudman is always on the mark but that particular story had a striking clarity of tone. Well, it struck me.

Nine reasons why New Zealand is not Australia

The only additional one that I find relevant is the size of the Oz popul ation-?

You should all go and read Chris' excellent post now:

Nine reasons why New Zealand is not Australia

I did, but there's one passage I found rather over-egged the pudding:

Australian life is full of fees that are effectively taxes, even though they go by different names. [...] Flying out?

Not wanting to go into battle, just saying...

people who live in temperate countries (like all the commentators?

They're rather pleasant actually.....

That depends. The dry heatwaves they get in Oz were most assuredly very unpleasant. But I do long for the nice balmy temperature of Thailand.

But I do long for the nice balmy temperature of Thailand.

I'm actually back in Indonesia this week, where it's a decidedly less balmy and humid high 30s, but either way, give me the swelter of a stinking hot South East Asian day over a chilly Auckland spring/winter/autumn. It always?

They're rather pleasant actually.....

Not when I visited the Gold Coast in the autumn of 1995. Talk about thermal shutdown.

Not when I visited the Gold Coast in the autumn of 1995. Talk about thermal shutdown.

heh..it's really a matter of acclimatisation. Welly to the Gold Coast is a shock at the very best of times. Very few of those living there seem keen to move to cooler climes which?

Absurdities abound, the first of which was the appointment of people like Dr Brash and Mr Caygill who, along with their soulmate, Act Party seat-warmer Roger Douglas, are not just yesterday's men but last century's men.

Ya know who said that? Garth George.
Given it's Garth George calling you "last?

heh..it's really a matter of acclimatisation. Welly to the Gold Coast is a shock at the very best of times. Very few of those living there seem keen to move to cooler climes which mostly says it all.

I lived in a very hot summer climate all my life and?

I lived in a very hot summer climate all my life and couldn't wait to get the hell away from it.

There's always one :-)

I'm always amused by the Scots moving from the bitterly cold north to the UK, to, ahhh, Dunedin

(I suppose 'the world don't move to the beat of just one drum/ what might be right for you may not be right?

So yeah, I have a collection of vintage winter coats.

Same, well not vintage, but winter coats, and I have to admit a snowy day in Central Park is rather hard to beat, but what I like about it is tempered positively by the happy fact that I'm not stuck?

Ya know who said that? Garth George.
Given it's Garth George calling you "last century's men" that means 18th Century.

Come on, fair's fair. This was Garth George in a kick-ass mode we knew nothing about. As in the last par:

The description of the report by Finance Minister Bill?

There's always one :-)

I moved from the far north to Wellington, Because I like the weather better down here.

if our national character is not to generate wealth, then as a nation we simply won't have the tax take/private income of other nations

In terms of public spending, that assumes that we continue on the same path in two areas:

– our taxes are maintained at the low end?

we spend a fortune on the apparatus of social authoritarianism. Measures such as closing prisons, cuting police numbers and legalising and taxing drugs would free a substantial "freedom dividend" that could be spent on more useful public services.

Now we're talking.

Come on, fair's fair. This was Garth George in a kick-ass mode we knew nothing about.

Oh come on... when it comes to the evils of filthy secular humanism Garth never takes his hob-nailed boots off. If this country ever turned into the fantasy land in Garth's head, I'd throw?

Oh come on... when it comes to the evils of filthy secular humanism Garth never takes his hob-nailed boots off. If this country ever turned into the fantasy land in Garth's head, I'd throw myself under the nearest bus.

Sounds remarkably like Disneyland With The Death Penalty. Must catch up?

(Me, I'm more of a Baudrillard kind of guy. It's not Disneyland that it's a simulation of the US, Disneyland is real. It's the US that are a simulation.)

I'm always amused by the Scots moving from the bitterly cold north to the UK, to, ahhh, Dunedin

didn't Billy Connelly have a joke about that? Scots immigrants landing in Auckland and going 'Nawt cald enough! Move further Sooooth!'