Random Play: So You Wanna Be A Rock’n’Roll Star
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And I must admit I got equally pissed off at the whole 'he lives in Australia, therefore he's not a real New Zealander' sneer.
Me too. I half heard the tail end of some news report from someone in Te Awamutu this morning on BFM about .... did anyone actually hear it? All I caught was some bad punning on Crowded House song titles. I tried looking for the story on the BFM website but all I could find was this kiddie porn (that bloke holding hands doesn't seem too happy)
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When I was in London, I met a kiwi, asked where he was from and he said "Dunedin...I KNOW I KNOW" and when I said "huh?" he launched this tirade about how "you North Islanders think you're so much better than us".
A few years ago, two friends of mine hitch-hiked from Auckland down to Southland.
They'd engage in conversation with the drivers who picked them up, which would usually involve, "So, where are you guys from?"
They discovered that the further south they travelled, the more negative the driver's reaction was to their hometown, verging on near hostility by the time they neared their destination.
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somebody was smart enough to stick them in the studio with Shel Tamy at the beginning.
The opening riff to I Can't Explain is still fcuking awesome, and it was written 6-7 years before I was born. Ray Davies is quite disparaging of Talmy and they way he recorded the Kinks early on (very quickly) but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
The way Todd Hunter (allegedly, I'm not an expert) botched the Toy Love record led to the Tall Dwarfs and Doug Hood's 4-track, so Hunter can be thanked for at least one contribution to NZ music.
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They discovered that the further south they travelled, the more negative the driver's reaction was to their hometown, verging on near hostility by the time they neared their destination.
Hehehe - you think thats bad try going to the Chatham Island when you live in Wellington. Then try explaining to them that you work for the government. Then take the next step and explain your from the Ministry of Fisheries (the Chathams depend quite a lot on fisheries)... that will get you a frost reception!!
Though to be honest once they got over that and realised I was an okay person they were really friendly (most of them at least) - of course standing up and saying, "I just want to minimise the about of bullsh*t you guys go through" probably worked in my favour!
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Kiddie Porn? Unless you're seeing something I'm not, all those people pictured are well into their twenties... I think you're confusing bFM with Pavement...
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f#ck, am I that old?
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My favourite recordings would probably be sneered at by some as being unworthy, but who cares. God Bless DYI and low-fi
Produced and Mastered by B. Udget
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Simon,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree in a few key places to stop this getting nasty. Suffice to say that I have very, very little time for Nathan Haines and that I don't conflate virtuosity with musicianship. I'd like to see NZ music turn into an army of Dream Theater clones about as much as I'd like to suffer an attack of genital herpes.
Going a bit wider and following the direction of the thread...
Musicianship is simply about control and depth of understanding of the basic elements of music, in my book.
You can argue that it is unimportant - which is one of the ways that punk can go, philosophically speaking. But I tend to think that's bollocks in reality, because as punk illustrated very effectively, without developing some musical control and depth of understanding everything starts to get very boring and repetitive very quickly. The punk acts that have achieved lasting recognition are either the ones that broke new ground or the ones who shaped the vitality of punk into something meaningful by taking control of the aforementioned basic elements of music. There have been some fantastic musicians born of punk music, they're generally just not virtuoso players.
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Suffice to say that I have very, very little time for Nathan Haines
Uhhh, ok....and you have sold exactly how many records?
Here is Nathan's list (there are many more still to be added or uncredited too). As his publisher for some years I'm privy to communications between him and a legion of musicians and producers around the world, all of whom I imagine would disagree with you as I do.This is not about getting nasty, I just think you are wrong. Coming into a forum and making blanket statements like "Musicianship here sucks. Sound engineers suck. Etc." do neither the industry, nor yourself any favours.
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Heh, I bought that FM 7" at HMV on Oxford St about three years ago when I was back in the 7" groove. Only 600 pressed you say...
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Uhhh, ok....and you have sold exactly how many records?
Here is Nathan's list (there are many more still to be added or uncredited too). As his publisher for some years I'm privy to communications between him and a legion of musicians and producers around the world, all of whom I imagine would disagree with you as I do.I've sold precisely zero records, which is not particularly surprising given my tendency not to make them. I've also had precisely zero people come to see my non-existent movie and zero people buy my non-existent book. Clearly I've given up all rights to any opinions about music, cinema or literature. I'm sorry, I'll get my coat...
How many records has Kenny G sold? Chris Botti? A considerable amount more than Nathan Haines, I'll wager. Should I go put some posters on my wall?
This is not about getting nasty, I just think you are wrong.
Or rather, you just want to reply to the parts of my posts that you disagree with, as evidenced by the fact that you picked a single line about Nathan Haines from an entire post above. That seems a somewhat consistent pattern here, which I would have to say rather looks like you're after an argument rather than a conversation. I've yet to direct any snide comments at you, they seem to be coming back my way at a rate of minimum one per post at the moment...
Coming into a forum and making blanket statements like "Musicianship here sucks. Sound engineers suck. Etc." do neither the industry, nor yourself any favours.
OK, I was a bit blunt for effect and I'll retract that and soften my point a bit.
Musicianship here doesn't universally suck - if you want me to name names, I'll call drummers as they're what I know best: Guys like Paul Russell, Michael Franklin Brown, Graham Cope etc are all very credible players who've come up locally and continue to work here who'd make a living anywhere. And the guys on tenured positions (Lance at Massey, Ron at Auckland...) are excellent players too, albeit supported by academic salaries now rather than making a living on gigs alone. But on a general trend, the standard of musicianship locally is not particularly strong - and I'm not talking about virtuoso chops here, I'm just talking about confident control over the sounds you make and a bit of understanding of the history and possibilities of your instrument.
As Graham points out in his original post, developing your craft as a performer is something that takes time and live experience - you need to gig, you need to work. That's something that's been getting harder and harder to do in recent decades.
If you don't think it's helpful to "the industry" to be worried about that and want to do something about it then I'd have to question whether the industry has much foresight.
On the "Engineers suck" front... I'm quite willing to be self-deprecating here. There's no way I should get any paid work as a sound engineer. I'm entirely self-taught, for a start, and I've not spent any time working next to an engineer who knows what they're doing. Yet, just because I've owned gear at a few points, I've been repeatedly asked and offered money to help people record or gig on a pub/club level, and bands tend to be pretty satisfied with what I've done. There's two conclusions that can be drawn from this:
1) I'm an innately talented engineer.
2) The general standard of engineering that is considered acceptable around here is pretty damn low.I vote for #2. That doesn't mean that everybody is universally crap, just that the standard that is accepted in many public performances is way below what's right.
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They discovered that the further south they travelled, the more negative the driver's reaction was to their hometown, verging on near hostility by the time they neared their destination.
I usually avoid that whole issue by saying 'I'm from Auckland and I'm very sorry' all in one breath. Then everyone laughs. Problem solved.
(My mother is from Invercargill.)
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How many records has Kenny G sold? Chris Botti? A considerable amount more than Nathan Haines, I'll wager. Should I go put some posters on my wall?
You miss the point Finn. With both those two you are confusing musicianship with ideas again. I don't like Kenny G at all but I'm happy to admit he can probably play..I don't know, I've not paid enough attention to him. I know Chris Botti can, but I don't think he's inspired.
I'm not going into the ups and downs of Nathan...he can be difficult at times, but as a musician and a composer he is inspired, can be inspirational, and is driven by his muse.
I don't think calling bullshit on a post stating everything sucks is snide, especially when it seems you now agree with me that you overstated. And clearly my point about being unhelpful was aimed at the way you made that statement rather than than any wider statement you now wish to make (and are doing so). I would suggest that it is you that is taking things out of context. It was you that made what was a wide provocative swing at musicians and engineers in New Zealand...I simply responded. You set the level of discourse with that statement.
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You miss the point Finn. With both those two you are confusing musicianship with ideas again. I don't like Kenny G at all but I'm happy to admit he can probably play..I don't know, I've not paid enough attention to him. I know Chris Botti can, but I don't think he's inspired.
Fair enough, and I'll happily agree that Nathan can play. I just really, really dislike what he plays so he's not an example that's likely to win my heart, so to speak.
As for Kenny G, I'll let another musician I've got no great love of (but who I will happily admit can play circles around me) speak for me, in the form of Pat Metheny. Even in jazz it's possible to sell vast qualitites of records without really having much going for you in the musicianship stakes.
I'll take your point about the form of my expression of discontent on the nose and say sorry - it wasn't my intent to slight, and having re-read the post it was certainly beyond what was called for.
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I'd have to add my two cents though Simon, pulling out the "how many records have you sold?" line is, if not snide, then somewhere in the same ballpark. I've written blogs about dogs ownership and smacking children in the past few weeks, I'd hate to think I'm banned from such topics as a single cat owner...
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Damian, I know all sorts of dark secrets about you...remember that.....and this is Graham's thread, bro....you stick to yours, this is about slapping down the music industry, you're on a comedy roll now.
oh ok...it was a cheapshot but the point is, and Finn and I are all ok about it now....
Is that still that huge cat you had years ago in Ponsonby. That was only just a cat.
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3410,
THEATRE!
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"how many records have you sold?"
Good point. How many political parties has Russell Brown formed? That certainly renders most of his blogs moot then, doesn't it?
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Good point. How many political parties has Russell Brown formed? That certainly renders most of his blogs moot then, doesn't it?
good to see we're setting a few issues here today....while RB is in Welly, he's getting the heave-ho too. I guess we need a new name for the place too....
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As for Kenny G, I'll let another musician I've got no great love of (but who I will happily admit can play circles around me) speak for me, in the form of Pat Metheny. Even in jazz it's possible to sell vast qualitites of records without really having much going for you in the musicianship stakes.
Perhaps the NZ music scene will have really come of age when some of the more gifted posters here make their opinions available in the form of specially composed downloadable ditties - as Richard Thompsion did with Metheny & Kenny G.:
http://www.richardthompson-music.com/audio/I_Agree_With_Pat_Metheny.mp3 -
And, just to avoid the flying epees and foils for the moment, I've got to say, I absolutely love 'When the spell is broken' by Richard Thompson. One of my desert island discs for sure.
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oh ok...it was a cheapshot but the point is, and Finn and I are all ok about it now....
Good to hear. All credit to Finn, it's a brave man who argues music with you Mr Grigg. Kinda like arguing sherry vs port with the town drunk.
Is that still that huge cat you had years ago in Ponsonby. That was only just a cat.
Yes, Tonka is indeed still alive, well and annoying me.
And what do you mean "only just a cat"? You mean he was closer to being two cats, or a small dog? He's lost a fair bit of weight, but as I remind him every night (to the tune of Boston), he's still More Than a Kitty...
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Tonka had a little of the large horse in him, and I was always worried that he may have rolled at night smothering you.
I used to like the idea that, like the back of the sofa you could find all sorts of lost things in his fur.
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Good to hear. All credit to Finn, it's a brave man who argues music with you Mr Grigg. Kinda like arguing sherry vs port with the town drunk.
Brave or foolish, take yer pick!
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Holy crap, that Pat Matheny take-down of Kenny G. is so brutal I actually ended up feeling a little sorry for the guy. Warning to all musicians... do NOT piss Mr Metheny off!
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