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Speaker: It's the recrimination I don't need …

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  • horse,

    Erm, aren't the players being "gracious" because they're contractually obligated to? And aren't the commentators of the various official broadcasters similarly bound?

    Palmerston North • Since Feb 2007 • 32 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Erm, aren't the players being "gracious" because they're contractually obligated to?

    Which marks the official point at which this thread has made me more depressed than the actual match result. Cheers.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3662 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Don't be. It's only Craig and I don't understand his first point either.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1616 posts Report Reply

  • Emma Hart,

    Interesting stuff on forward passes:

    Wow. That's the end of me EVER calling a forward pass from my recliner again.

    Christchurch • Since Nov 2006 • 4371 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Oops, sorry Craig. I confused you with a gentleperson called "horse".

    Still don't understand your point to Russell.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1616 posts Report Reply

  • Charles Mabbett,

    "Some fans could do well to remember that. Winging about the ref should not be a core value of NZ rugby."

    Am I living in the same country? Wingeing about referees is one of the few things that you can bet your house on in any wash-up of an ABs defeat. It's a long established tradition and won't end any time soon. And it doesn't just happen here. It happens in India and Pakistan over bad umpiring decisions in cricket, it happens in soccer powers during a world cup, notably when Italy, Portugal and Spain each lost to the hosts South Korea in 2002.

    Also am I missing something but didn't the set piece from which the French scored their second try come from Rokocoko spilling the ball in a tackle? In other words, an All Black mistake led to the try that decided the game.

    I'm still giggling over Giant Rugby Ball HQ video. Those inside must have felt like real wallies. Any passing French person would have thought "We won! Let's go over to the giant rugby ball that has New Zealand emblazoned in large letters over it and taunt the Kiwis!" Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You have to laugh.

    Since Nov 2006 • 236 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    As opposed to all those other ratshit games that didn't matter at all, because the All Blacks weren't involved? Not picking a fight, RB, but I don't think anyone came to the World Cup to fuck around, do you?

    Not buying a fight either, but I don't understand your point either.

    I'm fairly sure it's unprecedented for a referee who has controlled one top-level international match to be put in charge of a World Cup quarter-final. Not just in rugby: in any major sport.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19019 posts Report Reply

  • Charles Mabbett,

    Hmm, forward pass video is very interesting. Good work on digging that up.

    Since Nov 2006 • 236 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    __Erm, aren't the players being "gracious" because they're contractually obligated to?__

    Which marks the official point at which this thread has made me more depressed than the actual match result. Cheers.

    I couldn't see where this had been said, however I think it's BS. Watch the footage of the All Blacks' comments and decide for yourself. I can only see their disappointment with not having won the game - the earlier comment is too cynical I feel.

    BTW, I've now rewatched the game enough times to think that the carding of McAlister was fifty:fifty rather than a straight out refereeing error however the pass should have been picked up by someone. Also the comment, a long time back about McDonald being lost at this level, is a bit rough. His game goes off a little after he's injured in the first French try - he stayed on the park probably because Evans was back up to Carter - all the more reason that Howlett should have at least been on the bench.

    And with that, I think I need to move on with thanks to RB, the dropkicks and all other commentators.

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2237 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Christ, you do need to be Einstein after all to understand this game.

    Yes, it's a lovely take on relativity isn't it?

    I'm sure that the fateful pass doesn't fall under that principle though. The French player who took the pass was in front of the tackled player, which is why he made so much ground.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19019 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    I'm still giggling over Giant Rugby Ball HQ video. Those inside must have felt like real wallies. Any passing French person would have thought "We won! Let's go over to the giant rugby ball that has New Zealand emblazoned in large letters over it and taunt the Kiwis!" Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. You have to laugh.

    I'm trying to get an interview with Mike Hodgson and Bruce Ferguson for the radio show this week. It doesn't sound like they had a bad night though ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19019 posts Report Reply

  • merc,

    The Ref in Rugby represents the Mysterious Hand Of Fate, we mortals may question Her, however there be lies the way of madness, because as we all know, we may invent rules and laws but only The Ref can inscrutably interpret them, and we may not question this, for goats have been sacrificed and dark wagers made.
    Fortunately the game goes on and The Ref will be there again, guiding the tide of fates and adjudicating at the gates of paradise. Think not that the AB's have been foresaken, for it was on that day that the French were deemed more worthy and high priests and prime ministers have ministrated and spoken. Who are we to question the righteous straight and narrow way of The Ref, bless his whistle (Acme Thunderer).
    Amen.

    Since Dec 2006 • 2471 posts Report Reply

  • Charles Mabbett,

    I think the word that would describe the feelings of those inside GRB HQ is a French word - chagrin.

    Since Nov 2006 • 236 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    As opposed to all those other ratshit games that didn't matter at all, because the All Blacks weren't involved? Not picking a fight, RB, but I don't think anyone came to the World Cup to fuck around, do you?

    I suspect the point was that there were a heap of games where two or three... or ten bad refereeing decisions wouldn't have affected the result at all. About 2/3 of the one-sided pool games fall into that category.

    However all the quarter finals were close, and could have gone the other way based on one or two decisions. When it gets to the business end of the tournament, you want your top four referees in the middle, surely?

    There were plenty of one-sided pool games for referees new to the international scene to get their experience.

    The other thing I read a few weeks ago, is that they had additional linesmen here for the pool games, who have all been sent home. Only the top tier of referees were retained for the knockout stage, and all the touch judges in this section were referees in the pool stage.

    Which means that Barnes is a top tier referee according to the IRB referee panel. After refereeing one international match!

    Since Nov 2006 • 6217 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    He’d reffed more than one match Kyle (inc. 3 Pac Rim tests this year and our opening romp v Italy.

    Don’t be misled by that’s on his wiki page….

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Williams,

    How about a new thread... which All Blacks will be there for the next Cup?

    At least Hayman and possibly Woodcock though probably not any of the hookers. Williams probably, and McCaw and Collins. In the backs, Leonard, Carter, McAlister (if he comes back in time), Evans and Toeava... not a bad start and doesn't include a few others like Smith (nor Nonu, Weepu, Eaton or the Ginga...)

    Sydney • Since Nov 2006 • 2237 posts Report Reply

  • Jim Cathcart,

    If Richie McCaw pushes the boundaries of rugby's rules and gets away with it, he's labelled a genius and the referee is criticized with having a limited intepretation of the rule. When the French get away with something perhaps cruder (but common in the beautiful game), the ref gets slammed by the NZ armchair experts.

    It happens ( just like the 'Hand of God' incident) and is part and parcel of the theater of sport.

    Since Nov 2006 • 145 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Okay, it gets worse ...

    New revelations regarding the role of touch judges at the Rugby World Cup. Many have questioned why no-one stepped in from the sideline to point out a forward pass leading up to Yannick Jauzion's try in the French quarter-final defeat of the All Blacks.

    But United States coach Peter Thorburn said there was a meeting between coaches, referees and touch judges in early September to clarify such roles.

    Thorburn said the pre-tournament directive said touch judges should focus foremost on touch, foul play and kicks at the goal.

    He added it was reiterated verbally they would not be able to interfere on issues of forward passes, offside and crooked lineout throws.

    Thorburn said it was a major IRB blunder appointing the inexperienced 28 year-old Wayne Barnes as referee for such a crucial match.

    This is a huge fuckup.

    Tragically, it would seem to be our man Paddy in the gun ...

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19019 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    He’d reffed more than one match Kyle (inc. 3 Pac Rim tests this year and our opening romp v Italy.
    Don’t be misled by that’s on his wiki page….

    I noted that a couple of times further up the thread (info from Wikipedia).

    But I don't really regard three matches in a second-tier tournament involving Fiji, Japan, Samoa, Tonga and the Junior All Blacks (the Pacific nations being without almost all their European club players for the games) as qualification for the job.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 19019 posts Report Reply

  • LegBreak,

    More than anything, it’s probably a sad indictment of the refs around at the moment.

    Interesting though; I remember thinking at the time how well the SA v Tonga game was done.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1162 posts Report Reply

  • Danielle,

    Erm, aren't the players being "gracious" because they're contractually obligated to?

    Which marks the official point at which this thread has made me more depressed than the actual match result. Cheers.

    I couldn't see where this had been said, however I think it's BS.

    To clarify: I didn't ever believe that assertion was true either. I have just been increasingly depressed by the meanspirited ways in which some people are expressing their disappointment with the result, and that one - that someone is willing to believe that graciousness in defeat is merely a matter of contractual obligation - was the final straw for me. This 'there is absolutely nothing good to say about the team' kind of transferral is to be expected, I suppose, but it's still a bummer. I feel so sorry for the ABs. I wouldn't swap my crap-paying no-pressure job for theirs, ever. Shudder.

    Charo World. Cuchi-cuchi!… • Since Nov 2006 • 3662 posts Report Reply

  • Yamis,

    I'm just going to cut and paste what I wrote regarding that forward pass video from the sportsfreak forum to here to save me saying the same thing but with different words twice.

    "I have been saying for years that passes like those are miles forward.

    It gets passed off in the video as the passer passing the ball back but because of some velocity bullsh*t that it ends up going forward but what a load of sh*t. Look at the direction of the guys arms and hands and how it leaves his hands. IT IS THROWN FORWARD. It doesn't matter that its harder to pass the ball back when you are running forward, its still passing the ball forward.

    If a guy was able to throw a pass 40 metres from one side of the field to the other and his team mate and him were at full sprint you could get a pass thrown on the 22 and the team mate taking it on the goalline. There is no way on earth a ref would let it go and neither should they. They are basically justifying a situation where the pass could travel behind the back of a stationary defender and not be ruled forward.

    You have to swing your arms back harder and your support player needs to be either closer to you or much deeper.

    Its quite easy to replicate a situation where your arms swing way back but you throw the ball a mile forward depending at what stage of your arm swing the ball is released.

    Release early and it goes forward, release late and it goes flat or back.

    There is a way that a player can receive the ball in front of where it left his team mate.

    It is called a chip kick.

    Since Nov 2006 • 879 posts Report Reply

  • Graeme Edgeler,

    __Christ, you do need to be Einstein after all to understand this game.__

    Yes, it's a lovely take on relativity isn't it?

    I'm sure that the fateful pass doesn't fall under that principle though.

    If that was the principle. But it's not.

    Rule 12 A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. 'Forward' means towards the opposing team's dead ball line.

    It made a cool video 'though :-)

    Wellington, New Zealand • Since Nov 2006 • 3011 posts Report Reply

  • Don Christie,

    Graeme I could kiss you, if I weren't so manly.

    Talking of videos, I do wonder whether this one would be of any use to our fatties, you know, the next time.

    Wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 1616 posts Report Reply

  • WH,

    I have just been increasingly depressed by the meanspirited ways in which some people are expressing their disappointment with the result

    I caught five minutes of Deaker on Radio Sport on the way out, and five minutes of Grant Nisbett on Re:Union before Outrageous Fortune. Deaker was howling at the moon, Nisbett was his usual sensible self. Apparently some of the players are reluctant to come home right away, which is unsurprising in light of the treatment we have dished out to previous All Black sides. Do we have a bi-polar rugby culture, or do losses just give... less positive elements a chance to take the microphone?

    To answer my own question, I think Evans and Nacewa would make great All Black second-fives, and Atiga is a great centre. I am from Auckland obviously, but Nacewa has been on fire.

    Since Nov 2006 • 616 posts Report Reply

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