Polity by Rob Salmond

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Polity: New Zealand and the TPP: “Or you’ll do what?”

45 Responses

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  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    NZ walking away would have a chilling effect on the negotiations.

    Who says ?I don't understand this comment. Our Country by virtue of size isn't chilling and any other Country in the Pacific region can negotiate without us if they are so interested in this agreement.

    Gordon Campbell nailed this one a couple of weeks back with "Once again, the rest of the world has misread our national penchant for passive aggression as being a gesture of compliance."

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    I find it pretty scary to think about what it is that we have to trade, given that we're already about as open to trade as it is possible to get.

    NZ may be naked but we were only grabbing one ankle in Maui. Timmy is limbering up for a lunge at the other one.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • BenWilson, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    Our Country by virtue of size isn’t chilling

    It's hard to generalize. In a negotiation where no one has yet actually walked, the first party to walk does certainly make the most impact by doing so, particularly if it's a significant change in their apparent direction. Some small players can be highly symbolically significant.

    But do we care? Are we really here to save free trade by killing it? Or just to get a good deal for ourselves? I think it's the latter - I couldn't give a flying crap about free trade in general - I'm sure the idea will carry on just fine, and it's not the best of all possible ideas for all time or anything. It's a theory about how things should be done which is grossly at variance with how they are actually done.

    It's not obvious that it's even a correct theory - there are countless examples of nations that have had a lot of their interests severely damaged by freer trade, depending whose interests we are talking about. It's never good for anyone in the business of making something to have trade barriers to their competition dropped. Lots of industry in NZ was killed over the years by free trade. You have to have the theory that they "deserved to die" to just write their interests off as irrelevant. You have to place the consumer rights higher. Even then, you have to ignore some aspects of the consumer rights, like the right to locally produced goods - this might completely disappear if foreign goods crush them in the marketplace.

    Quite a lot of the idea of barriers goes to what the model of the government's business in the country even is. Sometimes it actually is to build an industry up that would increase the diversity of the country's offerings, to make it more resilient. For instance, the value added by processing our milk more (beyond producing the raw materials that we currently dominate in) could be enormous, but the industry that needs to be built might need a lot of nurturing first. And we're talking about an industry that's got all the advantages over the rest of NZ industry already. We could, for instance, challenge to be the world's biggest biscuit producer. We could even become a milk importer to that end, if only we had enough biscuit making infrastructure.

    I'm not saying we should do this, btw. Just that we could, that it's not axiomatic that we shouldn't. In theory, we could actually make biscuits way more competitively than many countries, due to our dominance of the supply of one of the main raw ingredients. But to build the infrastructure might require quite a lot of favourable government treatment. It doesn't have to be incredibly unpopular - quite the opposite, that's a direction that would contain a huge number of jobs.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 10657 posts Report Reply

  • Rob Stowell, in reply to BenWilson,

    In a negotiation where no one has yet actually walked, the first party to walk does certainly make the most impact by doing so, particularly if it’s a significant change in their apparent direction. Some small players can be highly symbolically significant.

    This is what I meant. The talks aren’t going all that smoothly – there’s a reasonable chance they’ll fall over anyway. NZ is one of the originals, and we have FTAs with a range of other players, including China. NZ walking away could be enough to skittle things.
    I don't think Groser has that in him. But it's all the leverage we've got.

    Whakaraupo • Since Nov 2006 • 2120 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic,

    For Tim Groser personally, I suspect he has a seat at somewhere like the World Bank at stake.

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel,

    We could always go back to the originally initiated P3 / 4 trade deal.
    Before the US et al shoehorned their way in.
    Not sure how Draconian that was, though?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7953 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    We could always go back to the originally initiated P3 / 4 trade deal.
    Before the US et al shoehorned their way in.
    Not sure how Draconian that was, though?

    A deal which no other Country involved had a problem with signing. All Parties involved appeared to have equal standing

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Tinakori,

    A more important question, why can't Labour attract quality advisors?

    This use of the word "Quality" has always annoyed me, do you mean good quality or bad quality.
    The other thing that annoys me is the assumption that Labour do not have GOOD quality advisors based on the fact that they aren't National and therefor bad by default to right wing neo-liberal nut jobs.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Nick Russell,

    I cannot see them walking away now. They have invested too much time and effort for that.

    If the outcome of your investment is trending toward loss then then pull out of the investment. You don't go throwing good money after bad unless you are stupid or have an ideological bent that obscures reality.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Kumara Republic,

    For Tim Groser personally, I suspect he has a seat at somewhere like the World Bank at stake.

    Personally hope he has his seat handed to him in a sling.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • David Hood,

    It sounds like New Zealand was giving in on Pharmac and I.P controls and everything else and in return was offered a reduction in dairy access.

    Dunedin • Since May 2007 • 1445 posts Report Reply

  • Steve Barnes, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    We could always go back to the originally initiated P3 / 4 trade deal.
    Before the US et al shoehorned their way in.

    The US has a habit of taking other people's work and turning it into manure, they do it with British comedy all the time. They never "got" Monty Python though...
    "Why is that funny, I do that sort of thing all the time" was the usual retort.

    Peria • Since Dec 2006 • 5521 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    ...do that sort of thing all the time

    actually...

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to BenWilson,

    free trade in general

    TPP is not a 'free trade' agreement.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19745 posts Report Reply

  • Tinakori, in reply to Steve Barnes,

    Its not based on an assumption but my observation of this post and his inglorious excursion into racial politics.

    Wellington • Since Jul 2013 • 118 posts Report Reply

  • Joe Wylie, in reply to Tinakori,

    his inglorious excursion into racial politics.

    Oh yes, you've identified an historic own goal there. It's almost up there with Fletcher Building CEO Graham Darlow's blaming the Irish for shoddy quake repairs - note the smarmy accompanying grin 1:54 into the clip - but without points to be scored you won't be crying racism on that one.

    flat earth • Since Jan 2007 • 4593 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Tinakori,

    ts not based on an assumption but my observation of this post and his inglorious excursion into racial politics.

    Any idea if David Round, Michael Cox, Stephen Franks, and Max Shierlaw are still involved with the Blue Team?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5446 posts Report Reply

  • John Farrell,

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 499 posts Report Reply

  • David E.H. Smith,

    TPP & other Global Treaties/”Arrangements’

    Grassroots America & overly polite global neighbors & need to know; Is it impolite, or, just prudent to Compare Corporate ‘America’s’ Desperation to ‘Share’ & Expand its $17 Trillion Debt via its flurry of Global Treaties/’Arrangements’ to the ‘bitchy’ (post Nixon PMS bullying) Desperation of Zza Zza Gabor when she slapped a cop for giving her a traffic ticket (for stepping out of her ‘land of the shrinking mirror’)?

    Corporate America, after its 2008 ‘Tactical Probe’ into Deregulation & Its Sub sequential Buying Short on its Global Recession, is Anxious for Its Legitimized & Globalized (TPP/TTIP/CETA) ‘Full Invasion’; HSBC’s money laundering, Enron’s insider trading, Chase Bank’s fraud, etc.

    Corporate Canada & its Traditional Big 3 Political Parties are desperate to increase its play time under the ‘skirts’ of Corporate U.S. in the International Glitter Game.

    TPP, TTIP, CETA; Roll-back NAFTA, et al, Tribunal Penalties (ISDS) paid by Canadian lil’ guy; $125 M & $25 M legal fees to Reneging Corporate America. U.S. Pays ‘0’. ‘You Should have Known’; President Bush. Prohibit Future TPP, et al, ISDSs.

    Corporate ‘U.S.’ is Leaving Grassroots America, et al, Fatally Vulnerable; China can Kill TPP, et al, by Offering its Trade Partners Alternative to citizen Punishing Dispute Settlements (ISDS) & few other ‘Hearts & Minds’ choices? CHINA too ‘Humbling’ for Corporate America & Assocs.? Is a Kinder & Wiser CHINA too ‘Humbling’ for Corporate America & Assocs.?

    ANTI-Globalists (GREENs) PROHIBITED from ‘Corporate Canada’s Election’ DEBATE…
    Can the Canadian, et al, voters even debate the Pros & Cons of the TPP & other Global Treaties/’Arrangements’ when the CBC & Corporate Canada’s media have Decided that the TPP is NOT a CHOICE, but, merely a matter of ‘Choosing the best negotiator..’ of their ’Arrangements’?

    How long have Global Corporate Associates been ‘Passing’ Legislation in Anticipation of Suing Once Ratified? ‘Trickle’ Up & Out Economics.

    Do Harmless, Individual Taxpayers Needs Direct, Cash Dividends from Corporate America & Global Assocs. for Secret Corp. Benefits Paid for by the Harmless Taxpayers?

    TPP & Global Corporate Treaties/’Arrangements Not about How Much Trade, but, How to ‘Vichy’ Profits, Who to Trade with to 'Undermine' AIIB & more about Tort ‘Abolishment’ than Tort ‘Reform’?

    TPP nations, et al, need ‘good corporate citizens’ that respect our legislation & need to ‘out’ bad corporate voters via shareholder meetings?
    Americans, Japanese, et al, look forward to working with Savvy Slave Trading Malaysians & Slick Cultural ‘Genociding’ Canadians. ‘But, we didn’t know’.
    Traditional Canadian Parties Demanding Supplicance to Corporate Canada & its Global Corporate Assocs. is an unholy sin?

    Will Pope Francis & other leaders Intercede with Prayer against PM Harper, Corporate Canada, The Canadian Establishment, et al, for Continuing to Blame & Punish those who are continuing to be Deprived of the Due Diligence Info and Continuing its Cultural Genocide? Protecting the Human Rights of Unborn Native Canadians, et al.
    Making the leaders of TPP, Shareholders, et al, 'Persona non Grata'; Shareholders' Meetings I.D. Toxic Neighbors, In-laws, et al?
    by David E.H. Smith, ‘Qui tam…’

    • After New Zealand’s PM admitted that medicines will cost more, have the citizens of New Zealand & other TPP nations also noticed similar moves like Canadian Prime Minister Harper below? ‘To help pay for the harmless taxpayers ‘guilty transgressions’ against Global Corporations in Canada, Prime Minister Harper has recently cut the funding for health care by $36 billion dollars’. (please see article below)

    But, will the lil' guy get 10 years to read, consider, discuss & improve upon (with lawyers paid by Global Corporate Assocs.)?
    *
    FULL Article, see; davidehsmith.wordpress.com
    *
    Please consider sharing the enclosed information & questions with 10 friends who will share it with 10 others...

    Sidney, BC, Canada • Since Aug 2015 • 1 posts Report Reply

  • Paul Campbell,

    One thing that I realised this week is that the TPPA and its ilk is inherently unequal because it provides for the free movement of capital and goods ..... but not labour.

    If all the great jobs move to country X because of TPPA but you can't move there and take them it's not a fair treaty

    Dunedin • Since Nov 2006 • 2623 posts Report Reply

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