"The Terrorism Files"

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  • steven crawford,

    What Finn said. Sara, have you read the whole affadavit?

    Do you mean this serious evidence

    Since Nov 2006 • 2467 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    The events that the 12 year old recounted 1st hand are completely unacceptable absolutely regardless of anything Tuhoe Lambert did or didn't do. The only question is, did they happen?

    The real politic of the situation, given the extreme imbalance of institutional, legal, financial and social power between the Police and the girl (and her family), is that her ability to present evidence, bring a case and get justice is severely constrained. This is not a level playing field.

    The Police are agents of the state. They have lots and lots of POWER. They are required to abide by certain professional and ethical standards - like clergy, therapists, judges etc etc. They are, therefore, supposed to be subject to higher levels of scrutiny than members of the public.

    As Kracklite says, it is part of our flawed nature that we "dehumanise" others, especially when in situations of conflict. Police are put in horrible situations every day, they are human and sometimes they do terrible things. We need to be very vigilant against acceptance of those terrible things being normalised. It is vital that possible abuses of power are examined scrupulously. I can certainly understand why the Police culture of loyalty extends into covering up at times - and I am sympathetic to the individuals concerned - but that doesn't mean that we should turn a blind eye to it.

    I accept that we are not objective - none of us. I am affected by the fact that I know the "Clown" who, at 5'2" and 45 kg, dressed as a bumble bee and holding a stick of french bread, was attacked with a baton by a police officer, was knocked out and had her collarbone broken. I know that my husband, clearly identified as a journalist was hit across the head with a baton by a police officer splitting his ear open and knocking him unconscious, while covering a protest.
    There are endless other examples of abuses of police power in the public domain.

    The Police neither need nor deserve the benefit of the public doubt - the public doubt should always be directed towards close scrutiny of those with the potential to abuse power.

    R: I am not particularly concerned that you accuse me of making up the cavity search. I believe the person who told me and she believes the accuser who told her. I just hope they do get their day in court.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Oh, and by the way, if what Russell said was IF the accused were really planning an attack that could do damage to a person or people, I would condemn them utterly. Perhaps I misread, but I had always "heard" an undertone of assumption that the accused were guilty. I would condemn that utterly as well.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    OK, I had a conversation with Tama Iti several years ago. The conversation was about art. I found him to have a grandiose opinion of himself; that in-fact he thought he was taking a piss on honky art by making his own ill-conceived trash.

    Tama Iti actually threatened to execute a painting by way of the "Paint Bomb" technique. Let me tell you I was shocked. That sort of thing went out of fashion during the seventies.

    Since Nov 2006 • 2467 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Oh and just to demonstrate my true status as Noobian Delux, could someone please tell me how to put my pretty little picture up, now that I've made one of myself???

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Just click on

    Get a Gravatar.

    left of here. It might ake a few go's to get it to stick.

    Since Nov 2006 • 2467 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    I meant down there

    Since Nov 2006 • 2467 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Yeash Im lookn down but alls there a key board.

    No really, I've been there and made one, but is there something I am not doing AT gravatar (or here) that means its not coming up.

    PS thank you for taking pity on me!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    "Clown" who, at 5'2" and 45 kg

    Funnily enough, I know one too (and have done for several years), a more recent case. Not a broken collarbone, but severe bruising and an false assault charge to boot (literally, or it might have been a fist, or a baton) - thrown out by the judge in a matter of minutes. It was a classic case of assaulting an officer by throwing herself on his boot/fist/baton.

    No, I will NOT give her name, nor will I demand a public pledge of loyalty to the state from her because her associates are accused of terroism. Really, what the hell are people thinking if they demand loyalty pledges?

    The Police are agents of the state. They have lots and lots of POWER. They are required to abide by certain professional and ethical standards - like clergy, therapists, judges etc etc. They are, therefore, supposed to be subject to higher levels of scrutiny than members of the public.

    Habeas corpus - tho' our constitution is unwritten, that principle applies no less. We grant certain people power to restrict our liberty under certain circumstances precisely so that we don't have lynch mobs; that can not be unconditional, ever.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 955 posts Report Reply

  • steven crawford,

    Keep going you might need to reload it a few times.

    Try this

    Since Nov 2006 • 2467 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    You mean the kind of bullshit escalation that reads "Cavity search" when "intimate body search" is printed, and translates "alleged actions" into fact when they're based on individual statements while translating them into fiction when they're based on 150+ pages of extremely detailed evidence and argument?

    Which is what I was thinking. Jesus Christ, Sara. Try and examine what you're writing.

    You moved on from using the phrase without a shred of evidence to putting "cavity search" in quotes as if it appeared in some claim from an actual person. This is hysteria.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18508 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    No really, I've been there and made one, but is there something I am not doing AT gravatar (or here) that means its not coming up.

    I think that you have to log off first and then log on again.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 955 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    No, I will NOT give her name, nor will I demand a public pledge of loyalty to the state from her because her associates are accused of terroism. Really, what the hell are people thinking if they demand loyalty pledges?

    Perhaps you could ask Asher that.

    http://anarchia.wordpress.com/2007/11/21/where-do-you-stand-shutting-the-fuck-up-to-not-risk-our-freedom

    That seems much more like what you're objecting to than the examples you're citing, no?

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Oh you're just mean.

    But I wouldn't mind the sumo armour up there

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • johnno,

    The events that the 12 year old recounted 1st hand are completely unacceptable absolutely regardless of anything Tuhoe Lambert did or didn't do. The only question is, did they happen?

    You make her accounts sound like the untarnished voice of truth, when they are merely one representation of the events. I would like to hear others before passing judgement.

    The real politic of the situation, given the extreme imbalance of institutional, legal, financial and social power between the Police and the girl (and her family), is that her ability to present evidence, bring a case and get justice is severely constrained. This is not a level playing field.

    Does this explain why the family chose to take their grievances to the court of public opinion - a court where they are free to say whatever they want, and where the police are constrained from responding? Where an uncritical media will accept their comments at face value, even when one organisation involved already held a copy of the affidavit that called into serious doubt anything that Tuhoe Lambert said? You can make a nice game out of comparing the comments made by Lambert, and to a lesser extent, his son, with actions observed in the bush. His credibility, and his son's, is very dubious.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 108 posts Report Reply

  • Russell Brown,

    Everyone has the right to remain silent. That's a valuable part of our legal system.

    It's the people who have made actively disingenuous statements that piss me off. And there have been a few.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2006 • 18508 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    No other Lambert's behaviour has anything to do with what may or may not have happened to the girl. Listening to the girl herself (on nine to noon - not personally), and in the context of the myriad of complaints from these raid, I am inclined to believe her, knowing, of course, that it is unlikely that any of us will ever really know the truth.

    IF these event occurred, are you prepared to condemn them?

    BTW Russell "cavity search" is an actual quote from a real person (as explained above). But I put it in quotes because it is a prissy euphemism for something that, to me, amounts to rape. From Freud to Lacan, the psychologists would back me up that hysteria is closer to reality than denial - remember, the very theory of hysteria was developed out of the study of sexually abused women.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    I am unable to condemn individuals or a group or an Iwi, based on out-of-context third hand evidence that was, in the first place, acquired, editted and leaked by a party that had just committed very real ATROCITIES against innocent civilians and needs to cover its very ugly rear end.

    If you read the leaked material, you'll soon see that it didn't come from the police, but from the defence side of the equation. And most of it was second hand, not third hand.

    And it's a bit of a stretch to say that anything that happened on October 15 was an atrocity. Let's keep the serious words for rape, pillage and murder shall we?

    Since Nov 2006 • 6147 posts Report Reply

  • Kracklite,

    That seems much more like what you're objecting to than the examples you're citing, no?

    And that's just a cherry picking and bloody snide. Care to make any other insinuations?

    I repeat, I should not be required in a democratic society to disavow any sympathies with anyone to prove my good character and fitness.

    The Library of Babel • Since Nov 2007 • 955 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    third hand by the time it gets here

    Re rape: see above.

    Not sure if disingenuous refers to the transcripts or anyone here - If it is directed here, I assure you I am absolutely serious.

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • johnno,

    IF these event occurred, are you prepared to condemn them?

    If you are referring to the girl's comments, the answer is no, I would not condemn them. I would, however, condemn the actions of a couple of the adults in the house. I think the AOS have established tactical procedures over many, many years and through many, many different circumstances. They do not point guns at people's heads unless the other person has a gun. They do, however, shadow suspects with their firearms. There is nothing in her description that appears different from their usual tactics I have seen. There are instances where 12 year olds have been detained at gunpoint in the past, and where even younger children have been used to hide contraband belonging to the people who are meant to be looking after them.

    wellington • Since Nov 2006 • 108 posts Report Reply

  • Kyle Matthews,

    third hand by the time it gets here

    Umm. And if you played Chinese Whispers with it would you claim it was 10th hand? The evidence was written down, reading it doesn't make it third hand, it's just reading.

    Re rape: see above.

    I'm sure being cavity searched, if that's what actually happened, is pretty unpleasant. It's not rape however, rape is sexual. I'm not sure you should go waving 'rape' around if that's not what happened.

    Since Nov 2006 • 6147 posts Report Reply

  • Finn Higgins,

    And that's just a cherry picking and bloody snide. Care to make any other insinuations?

    I was making an insinuation? Sorry, I must have missed it. I just saw you bringing out the "you're with us or against us" thing and went "hey, I said just that to somebody else recently..."

    You're right, with-us-or-against-us arguments are bollocks. But I don't see anybody making them here, which was more my point. I just provided you with a better example of somebody doing it.

    I repeat, I should not be required in a democratic society to disavow any sympathies with anyone to prove my good character and fitness.

    Bollocks. Much was made of Margaret Thatcher's lack of good character and fitness in her blindness to the dubious activities her good friend August Pinochet was involved in. There are certainly circumstances where refusal to disavow somebody's actions does reflect on your own character and fitness, just as John Howard's refusal to apologise for (and thusly disavow) Australia's treatment of its aboriginal population reflected on his.

    That's not to say that people can't raise genuine concerns about civil liberties surrounding the recent arrests, or that they can't remain silent and be treated with respect. But there have been a lot of people making very aggressive accusations against the police on incredibly scant evidence while crying out about "political prisoners" and the "criminalisation of dissent" because of people being arrested on the basis of quite specific evidence that they were preparing for violence. This is neither taking a balanced position or staying silent, so I think it's a pretty reasonable target for derision.

    Wellington • Since Apr 2007 • 209 posts Report Reply

  • Sara Noble,

    Yet in this instance they were looking for a person who wasn't there and guns that didn't exist, and still they had four women lined up on their knees in their pajamas with a gun pointed at each of them, being shouted at not to move and not to talk and the mother not allowed to comfort her crying 12 year old with a gun pointed at her head.

    IF this is true, you would still not condemn it?

    Dear Kracklite - I realise I am falling into arguing as if all this is fact, when as you keep saying and I keep reading and appreciating, it is all perception. I guess I am just trying to break through the reification of status quo perceptions. And yet, some how I feel I have fallen into an endless show of Crossfire. I think I've had enough. I'd far rather be watching one of the movies you suggested. Thank you!

    Auckland • Since Nov 2007 • 127 posts Report Reply

  • blindjackdog,

    In addition to condemning utterly, and being sickened by, child abuse, may I say that I find murder a very bad thing indeed and express my gratitude for the invitation to make that radical opinion clear.

    Actively plotting murder with the genuine intention of carrying it out is also a very bad thing.

    (My facetiousness should not be taken as lack of sincerity, but rather as indignation at being [I feel] called upon to make such a manifestly unnecessary statement.)

    As one who has practised it, though, I am reluctant to speak too strongly against the idle suggestion of killing someone one despises. I don't defend it: I simply have no strong views on something so vague and context-dependent.

    An earlier suggestion by Russell that the accused have been represented as "heroes" I find difficult to fathom: I can't recall anyone on these threads expressing such a view. Personally, I have few heroes. Among NZers, perhaps David Lange was one.

    There are essentially two conversations going on here: one related to the semantics of truth and information, which through translation and decontextualised representation have been rendered virtually opaque in terms of the topic under discussion; and one examining broader patterns of social and cultural behaviours. Some posters are more interested in the latter conversation, which they see as actually relevant to their own and others' lives; periodically, though, they are dragged back into the former by the snide pedanticism of those who are (self-)satisfied with cheap sophistry.

    In simple terms (and I enter here the terra mauvais of speaking for others and offer all appropriate caveats) what Sara and friends are interested in is the FACT that if the same evidence was gathered "incriminating" a bunch of builders, plumbers, shearers and bus drivers, all pakeha, all living in Riverton, the police operation would have looked significantly different. And they're asking why.

    As for:

    Jesus Christ, Sara. Try and examine what you're writing.

    You moved on from using the phrase without a shred of evidence to putting "cavity search" in quotes as if it appeared in some claim from an actual person. This is hysteria.

    Jesus Christ, Russell. You accuse anarchists of being patronising? Sara's is pretty much the least damaging of the many examples of hysteria we've seen surrounding this particular issue. And frankly, "hysteria" is a dangerously loaded word, up there for thinking women with "fascist", "nigger" and "nazi". Best left out of the old lexicon of polite debate. Besides, Sara did say:

    I am not particularly concerned that you accuse me of making up the cavity search. I believe the person who told me and she believes the accuser who told her.

    Sara's merely entering the much-vaunted I-know-something-you-don't-know game, which has pretty much been the trademark of this discussion from the beginning.

    the ridiculous meme that this was just some racist, Bush-fellating plot to put the frighteners up some uppity nig-nogs and tree-huggers

    Craig, this is an absurd simplification and misrepresentation. Others may, but I do not perceive any "plot" as such. But the police/media/public (re)actions bespeak the disturbing levels of underlying racism within our society, whether you're inclined to notice it or not. The Bush factor merely points to the power of this term "terrorism", whether it refers to anything real or not. And the fact that some of the accused may have used the term themselves is merely, to my mind, corroboration of that, not any firm indication of their intentions (and that others would take their use of it as such an indication is even further corroboration). (Terrorists in this world are merely renegades: why don't we call them that?) And as for putting the frighteners up nig-nogs and tree-huggers, frankly, my less-than-active conspiracy alert has yet to come up with any compelling "motive" behind the gross display of state power that took place in Ruatoki. More frighteningly, I see it as simply the natural playing out of human brutality and mindlessness.

    Since Nov 2007 • 28 posts Report Reply

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