There's the intercept and surveillance evidence, a timeline to the charges, a?

The discussion about killing people for practice put the confrontation between the two hunters in context – presumably the?

It would seem to have been this one.

There has been discussion that it was a training camp to work as sercurity contractors? – This doesn't fit with militant idealists.

Were they wanting to get trained by Al queda? They would be lucky?

"It'd have to be a, some sort of f......, sudden f......, because what it'll do, it'll come down on the thinking of the people, they'll think it's al Qaeda ... It's gotta be sudden and it's gotta be brutal."
Other suspect says: "Don't piss around with cities or doing the?

I'm curious to know about the involvement of the pakeha activists and whether they were arrested as part of the round-up-the-usual-suspects routine as initially seemed likely, or if they were actively involved in the camps, which now seems very hard for a bunch of pacifists to justify.

At least some?

Shocking as they are, there is nothing apparent in the intercepts that justifies a terrorism charge. The snippets the Dom published are short on concrete planning and long on deranged gibberish.

Well, got to agree with you there and I'm not entirely playing the devil's advocate in saying that I've?

I've read some much scarier wing-nutty stuff on various blogs.

Some of the intercepts do read like the kiwiblog comments section on a bad day:

__I'm ready to die, mate. I'm gonna hurt this country, I've had a gutsful ... I wanna leave this planet making sure that I've done?

http://www.indymedia.org.nz/

And?

Well, got to agree with you there and I'm not entirely playing the devil's advocate in saying that I've read some much scarier wing-nutty stuff on various blogs.

Really? I found the stuff about killing people for practice deeply horrible.

If the evidence presented in the DP proves to be be true and representative, then my sympathy for certain people will evaporate.

The DP though: well really. If?

Some of the intercepts do read like the kiwiblog comments section on a bad day

Well, I was thinking more about why I tend to avoid American political blogs of all stripes nowadays. But don't get me started about Kiwiblog, where one of the excitable left-wingnuts accused me of giving?

Well, I was thinking more about why I tend to avoid American political blogs of all stripes nowadays. But don't get me started about Kiwiblog, where one of the excitable left-wingnuts accused me of giving 'support' to a 'pedophile' recently.

DPF's lefty trolls really need to learn when to leave?

Really? I found the stuff about killing people for practice deeply horrible.

Preaching to the Amen corner there, brother but I still can't quite get over the proposition that being hellishly creepy does not, ipso facto, reach the level of terrorism. Just as having reservations about how the Police handled?

Sorry I mean I don't understand why they watched and waited so long.

Because they were trying to build a case they thought they could get a conviction on? It is what they do, after all.

why didn't any paper do this with the police rape trials?

Well, that would have been illegal. You may have noticed this line right at the beginning of the DomPost editorial:

We believe we are acting within the law.

There were suppression orders in the police rape trials, I suspect?

I mean, why didn't any paper do this with the police rape trials?

Actually, they did to some extent. Quite a lot of detail was published by the Star Times in particular before charges were brought.

Even after two of the rape trials were concluded, there was the obvious danger?

Saying the same kind of stuff in conversation with somebody is considerably scarier, in my view.

Fair point, Finn. I just think in Laura Bush's position, you might be creeped out by someone blathering about putting a cap in yo' man's ass no matter what the medium. :)

Saying the same kind of stuff in conversation with somebody is considerably scarier, in my view.

Especially if you're doing things that suggest you could act on what you're saying.

Someone who talks about killing people for practice is a scary nutter. Someone who says that and trains with guns?

I also would have thought that in some ways it's worse that there are no names (although I can see why they would have to leave them out) because then those statements could stick to any one of the accused.

You can actually spot the previously leaked quotes from Lockett?

I also would have thought that in some ways it's worse that there are no names (although I can see why they would have to leave them out) because then those statements could stick to any one of the accused.

I thought that to, the DomPosts justifications for publishing felt?

me, other thread:

so does this mean the trial by media can officially start?

those radicals deserve to be either locked up, or have their heads read.

but a big section of maori will be the focus of intense race-hatred?

What do you think the underlying issues are? Confused and crazy and violent and shocking as it all is, there is a festering issue there. This must be something to do with Tuhoe's valid sense of injustice about land loss which has somehow been distorted into this dangerous nonsense.

Actually,?

I thought that to, the DomPosts justifications for publishing felt pretty weak to me.

Perhaps, but I think it's fair comment to say Phil Kitchin has been around long enough – and Fairfax has deep enough pockets – that this wouldn't go to press unless they were pretty sure they?

Actually, Russell linked to an article at the end of the This Just In thread, which discusses a sense of disquiet amongst many Tuhoe about what has been going on.

This one. As I said, I think a particular narrative has taken over since that's had the effect of drowning?

I can certainly guess which one is Lockett, but nothing leaps out as Iti.

This one is very similar to a previously leaked quote attributed to Iti:

"I cut down all of my work, right down. Ah, I'm only focusing to go to war."
Bugged suspect, April 26, 2007.

?

I really hope the DomPost has fairly represented a 100 page + document, and not cherry picked the really scary shit.

Well, obviously they've cherry-picked. The concern is whether they deliberately left out any ameliorating evidence.

And a bigger concern is whether the 100 page + document left out anything?

This one is very similar to a previously leaked quote attributed to Iti:

did i already mention "trial by media"?

it's a travesty that this was so badly mishandled that we'll never have a fair and impartial trial of the suspects in this case.

and... what graeme said.

Our language can be quite?

He knows he's being watched. It doesn't make sense he would say it as portrayed.

How do you all see the dignified and sensible utterances of Tame Iti's partner and son in the light of what has been revealed?

His son said what hurt the most was his father?

I'm in two minds about the DP's actions, it may turn out to?

Excuse me? Has anyone around here is arguing that threats of that nature shouldn't have been responded to – and taken seriously?

Well, yes. That was the overall impression I was getting. Maybe, as others have said, growing up in a country where terrorism was a daily threat and the?

RB: If this is the nature of the evidence, it's disturbing, but what charges it warrants other than the firearms ones, I'm not sure.

Which in itself seems disturbing – to my mind this sort of stuff has stepped over the "freedom of speech/freedom to be a wingut" line to?

Our language can be quite brutal and war can mean struggle as in a war on poverty.

. . . and war can also mean a handful of fanatics blowing a group of innocent people to buggery just to make a point/gain attention.

The questions is: which are you more?

Should they have taken action based?

There is a role for all of NZ to assist Maori (not just hapu and?

Broad never seemed that keen on looking at this thru the cloudy lens of 'terrorism'

And with all the talk of declaring war on New Zealand, I'd head back to treason:

Crimes Act, section 73
Every one owing allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen in right of New Zealand commits?

But it is becoming clear the raid on Ruatoki was OTT.

I'm sure if you bugged the National Front, or indeed a group of policemen off on a hunting or rugby trip, you'd hear all this and worse.

What they haven't got is any actual plan to do anything. "Just wait till he visits somewhere and just blow?

To be honest I'm more?

are they really any different from what would be heard if the Police bugged any one of the numerous gangs in NZ?

I don't really think gang members (or gun clubs) spend their down time daydreaming about blowing up petrol stations or murdering people to 'get used to killing'. But?

The word "war" is much misused, but it describes a state of affairs very, very far from anything that 17 radicals armed with Lion Red, petrol and bolt-action rifles could achieve. Prosecuting for treason on that basis would be like prosecuting a kid for attempted murder for attacking?

Is that it?

I'm sure if you bugged the National Front, or indeed a group of policemen off on a hunting or rugby trip, you'd hear all this and worse

Really? If that's your take, I give up.

If a group of off-duty policemen were shown to have discussed killing?

Compare that to how many broken electoral promises or back pedaling politicians do every other day ? Imagine tapping some of their phones or being privy to their dunken conversations. ?

I could have sworn a book of them showed up a little while ago, no? I don't recall reading?

Really? If that's your take, I give up.

Quite. When the did left decide that being no worse than the National Front was a badge of merit?

I think it's a shame that we're not seeing this?

Without context, it's impossible to tell if the threats were genuine. Not to borrow legal defenses from "My Cousin Vinny," but what if they were being sarcastic? Sarcasm does not show up well in text?

Who said it was? The NF have only ever been brought up in the context that they don't get the same treatment.

On the face of it, I think the police were?

Prosecuting for treason on that basis would be like prosecuting a kid for attempted murder for attacking his brother with a blunt pencil.

Ah yes, but you see, I watched West Wing episode 2-16 Somebody's going to emergency, somebody's going to jail last night".

Donna: It was people pushing paper?

Not Key and Clark though (he adds hastily, for any surveilling cops).

There was a line in an Elvis Costello song & later on a movie of the last guy hanged in England. For the phrase "Let him have it Chris" & Chris shot the cop.
Did he intend the cop to be shot or pass the pistol over?

Our language can be quite?

Who said it was? The NF have only ever been brought up in the context that they don't get the same treatment.

When people start trying to put severity of what was said in context by claiming that it's no worse than the National Front then I have to wonder.?

I don't recall reading about Don Brash tossing around the idea of killing a few people to get his game up for knocking off Helen.

Who knows what was said in private or what the real agenda of the brethren are and were it printed would you have believed it?

"Just wait till he visits somewhere and just blow them"

Well that worked for the republicans with Clinton ;-)

But on a more serious note

D.P. "October: Intercepts suggest another camp on October 12-13.

October 10: Police file 156-page affidavit to Manukau District Court seeking search warrants.

October 15: Armed?

sure a tap on the shoulder and take away any weapons – talk like this shud have licence & firearms revoked.

But it is becoming clear the raid on Ruatoki was OTT.

that's wot i think

Sam: It was high treason, and it mattered a great deal!

Sam always had, or wrote, the best lines. The President's speech near the end of 20 Hours in America Part II, even with the god stuff, gets to me.

So maybe a few of them get together in the?

I don't recall reading about Don Brash tossing around the idea of killing a few people to get his game up for knocking off Helen.

Who knows what was said in private or what the real agenda of the brethren are and were it printed would you have believed it?

You know, I'm beginning to agree with Bomber, which pains me, because I don't usually agree with Bomber.

What matters is what was being said by this group. And that is cause enough for concern.

And even though Tuhoe have had the focus on them at Ruatoki, isn't?

there was obviously something, and clearly it was idiots talking out of their arses.

if the police hadn't been such fuck ups with arrests and raids, i suspect public symathy would not be with those arrested.

"It'd have to be a, some sort of f......, sudden f......, because what it'll do, it'll come down on the thinking of the people, they'll think it's al Qaeda ... It's gotta be sudden and it's gotta be brutal."
Other suspect says: "Don't piss around with cities or doing the?

Why didn't they go in on the 12-13th? and catch them "red handed" and get real evidence of military training? rather than going in 2 days later and photographing women and children going about their rightful everyday lives.

That's an interesting question, and for evidential reasons, obviously that would have?

Does it occur to you that as you pour scorn on police evidence you're reserving the right to just make shit up for yourself?

That's it! I was trying to say the same thing to someone the other day but couldn't distill it as nicely as that.

"Oi, you know?

If a group of off-duty policemen were shown to have discussed killing people for practice (let alone having secretly acquired and trained with weapons) I would expect them at the very least to be thrown out of the force.

I have no idea what the National Front talk about on?

This could be interpreted as suspect 2 suggesting that instead of acts of violence suspect 1 should become an MP.

Most ambitious rationalisation so far! But keep trying, folks ...

This could be interpreted as suspect 2 suggesting that instead of acts of violence suspect 1 should become an MP.

Here's a conversation I didn't have the other day:

Grant Robertson (future MP for Wgtn Central!): "It'd have to be a, some sort of f......, sudden f......, because what it'll?

Why didn't they go in on the 12-13th? and catch them "red handed" and get real evidence of military training?

Maybe, just maybe, because that's when the boys were allegedly playing with SMGs and live rounds in the bush and a shoot out would have been likely and people might?

What a group of NF nutters or off-duty cops might or might not say is totally beside the point here.

The point is that mouthing off, however offensively, doesn't amount to terrorism.

These people clearly (assuming they aren't being taken out of context – it's not impossible that the conversations?

One person out of the dozen decides to pick up their weapon when the police say "hands up" and who knows what's going to happen.

Well. We wouldn't now be talking about whether they were terrorists or not. We would be talking about the heroic police pre-empting a terrorist action,?

The training and preparation?

That's certainly what I'd say if I were them.

Suppose also that they are intent on getting public attention on Tuhoe grievances.

What would be the most effective way of doing that?

a) actually carry out violent acts?
Counterproductive, hardens public opinion against?

are they really any different from what would be heard if the Police bugged any one of the numerous gangs in NZ?

I'm sure the Police routinely bug some of the numerous gangs in NZ. And I bet that if they think they have enough evidence of criminal activities -?

Actually, as long as we're going for ambitious rationalisations: knowing the temperament of certain people, perhaps they knew they were being monitored and delighted in saying outrageous things to tweak the listeners.

that's what i figure with half of it , but well to me that's just being plain stupid.?

One person out of the dozen decides to pick up their weapon when the police say "hands up" and who knows what's going to happen.

Jamie Lockett would be odds on for that role, he wants to die in a grand shootout with the Police.

Does it occur to you that as you pour scorn on police evidence you're reserving the right to just make shit up for yourself?

...yeah and your point being ???

According to the Solicitor-General:

The fundamental problem is that the legislation focuses upon an entity that carries out a terrorist act, and if individuals?

Actually, as long as we're going for ambitious rationalisations: knowing the temperament of certain people, perhaps they knew they were being monitored and delighted in saying outrageous things to tweak the listeners.

In that case they'd also better be fully willing to front up and apologise to the people of?

Sure TSA not being passed

...yeah and your point being ???

Probably that it's utterly idiotic and hypocritical. Of course, if you don't mind being a hypocritical idiot that probably doesn't bother you.

Actually, as long as we're going for ambitious rationalisations: knowing the temperament of certain people, perhaps they knew they were being monitored and delighted in saying outrageous things to tweak the listeners.

War threat a deliberate 'wind up' claims activist

Sure TSA not being passed

?? The amendment to that bill had overwhelming political support, was certainly going to pass...

Actually, as long as we're going for ambitious rationalisations: knowing the temperament of certain people, perhaps they knew they were being monitored and delighted in saying outrageous things to tweak the listeners.

I think we can safely eliminate that. This isn't dropping the word 'bomb' and 'osama bin laden' into?

Actually, as long as we're going for ambitious rationalisations: knowing the temperament of certain people, perhaps they knew they were being monitored and delighted in saying outrageous things to tweak the listeners.

that's what i figure with half of it , but well to me that's just being plain stupid.

?

Then ensure Domestic aspect is included & strengthen Police role as domestic anti-terror agency – as opposed to SAS.

No, the Police must take responsibility for there own actions & Ruatoki was OTT.

Then ensure Domestic aspect is included & strengthen Police role as domestic anti-terror agency – as opposed to SAS.

Possibly, but without any firsthand knowledge I can't bring myself to come down on the "cops did all this to influence legislation" side of things...

if the police hadn't been such fuck ups with arrests and raids, i suspect public sympathy would not be with those arrested.

I don't really get the impression that it is... I think most of the public supports the police action in this case, even if we suspect that the?

No, the Police must take responsibility for there own actions & Ruatoki was OTT.

How should police have reacted to the statements made public today? By walking up and knocking politely on the door?

Didn't the police originally say the launched the raids because of an imminent threat? I couldn't work out from that timeline what the imminent threat was.

I couldn't work that out either David. Of course, it might just not be in the documents that the Dom have, since they're from?

My point is that while deeply unpleasant, that doesn't make them part of a Terrorist War On Civilisation (TM). It doesn't mean that we have to abandon our liberties. It doesn't mean we should just?

i'm switching everything off till the dust settles.

Ditto. And dubmugga's comment (page 4) best exemplifies why I can't be bothered getting into a debate. So I'll just leave you with a rant:

I think there's a lot of naivete being displayed here from some commenters. And worse there's a lot?

My point is that while deeply unpleasant, that doesn't make them part of a Terrorist War On Civilisation (TM). It doesn't mean that we have to abandon our liberties. It doesn't mean we should just shut up and be thankful that our great and good government is here to?

Some of them might have gone on the bush trip and come back rather shocked and with a mental?

Probably that it's utterly idiotic and hypocritical. Of course, if you don't mind being a hypocritical idiot that probably doesn't bother you.

...would it bother you if i called you a sanctimonious retard ???

I'm not a cop or a journo. I have the luxury of making shit up and?

It doesn't mean that we have to abandon our liberties. It doesn't mean we should just shut up and be thankful that our great and good government is here to protect us from these nasty people.

True. But it's a mistake to align yourself with a bad idea for the?

Some of them might have gone on the bush trip and come back rather shocked and with a mental note to avoid those nutters in future.

I've been wondering if that happened since it appears none of those activists with more tenuous links thought it might be a good idea?

some genuinely scary?

I'm not a cop or a journo. I have the luxury of making shit up and reserve the right to express it...

Perhaps you could do it elsewhere. Some of us are investing our time and brains in having a discussion about some important issues, and you're muddying the waters?

To claim that some of these bugged conversations could be taken to mean the bugee was thinking of running for Parliament is facetious. Some of these conversations are BS 'fighting talk' but others clearly go beyond that and indicate that some people were willing to ramp things up.

...if you?

It's even possible that we have a mixture of all three cases among the 17:
a few activists engaged in a long-term plan of "deliberately arousing suspicion" for the purposes of getting (first) an obvious overreaction by the police, and (then) sympathetic media attention for their cause;

some genuinely scary?

Some of them might have gone on the bush trip and come back rather shocked and with a mental note to avoid those nutters in future.

I'm sure for some of them at least, that's absolutely what happened. But the legal process should sort that out and hopefully they either?

I don't know what goes on inside gang headquarters, but if a gang started building up weapons and undergoing paramilitary training and talking about killing prominent people in a reasonably serious way, the police would ramp things up a lot.

Yes, they would- the point that I was trying to?

I've been wondering if that happened since it appears none of those activists with more tenuous links thought it might be a good idea to tell the Police what was going on.

I can sort of understand that, especially if the people concerned have difficult relations (and even legitimate grievances)?

NZ doesn't even have particularly strong civil institutions on paper, but practically it has worked so far, mainly because as a society we are so unaccustomed to armed violence that the boundaries are maintained by common sense.

We are also very small – it's only two degrees of separation here.?

1. The acts themselves.
2. The reaction in terms of loss of civil liberties.

And, accordingly, the DomPost article worries me in two completely different ways.

1. Some of the people involved in the training camps appear to be f**king?

What about if we did a bombing campaign that blew up Waihopai spy base, power dams, gas facilities, TV stations and radios

On a personal level, this freaked me out a bit cos I work at a TV station. That it may be a?

I was thinking about what our reaction would have been if this had happened 10 years ago when we were both in the thick of these very movements. You know we both would have been pretty sick for someone to take 'our' issues in this direction.

I've really appreciated your?

Perhaps you could do it elsewhere. Some of us are investing our time and brains in having a discussion about some important issues, and you're muddying the waters and wasting our time.

If you want to make stuff up, up to you, but this isn't really a 'creative fantasy thinking'?

We see maybe 2 pages?

And we have no idea of the age or character of the people who said these things.

If Tame Iti was talking of killing politicians, be worried. If 17 year old Joe Blow is saying it, tell her to?

Free speech has been almost banned in this country for decades for fear of being called sexist or racist by peers and the MSM

What country do you live in? The sort of overt bigotry that goes in the letters page of the Herald or the rantings of some of?

2. The police in New Zealand, if they are indeed the leakers, appear to have little respect for due process and a fair trial. And, in the long run, we need to be offering fair trials even to nut jobs.

I think there's a legitimate argument both ways on that,?

oh right, just seems like more waste of time net shit talk to me...

Feel free to close your browser at any time.

When I was a boy I said things that I would be very very ashamed to have quoted back to me now. Angry young people say stupid stupid things.

Without picking on this particularly, this seems to be a common refrain.

Let's just re-iterate here that this is not just?

Shane Jones: Yeah I think there's something more disturbing that I am hoping the media will turn its attention to. I rather suspect that a lot of the characters mixed up in this rubbish up in Tuhoe?

Are we really so politically naive?

Yes, they would- the point that I was trying to make was that in doing so they probably wouldn't have invoked the TSA, they would have used the general criminal law. It seems the defining difference is the fact that these were activists.

Well the TSA does have components in?

The practise to shoot people line,?

Feel free to close your browser at any time.

whats that whistling noise ???

...is that your black kettle boiling over ???

seriously though are you going to do anything more than just make harmless talk on line about it ???

but anyway I understand the majority of those arrested?

oh right, just seems like more waste of time net shit talk to me...

troll. stop it.

" When I was a boy I said things that I would be very very ashamed to have quoted back to me now. Angry young people say stupid stupid things."

Without picking on this particularly, this seems to be a common refrain.

Let's just re-iterate here that this is not?

So let's suspend our condemnation...

vs.

But we do have one fact. The police were willing to blockade a whole town, and terrorise the inhabitants indiscriminately, based on the words and actions of a few.

Do you plan on actually doing what you're suggesting?

troll. stop it.

...STFU with teh petty name calling and stay on point yeah ???

how many of those quotes do you think can be attributed to the non maori arrested and have nothing to do with tuhoe activism and disenchantment ???

what benefit does it serve and to whom,?

]]> Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:54:03 +1300 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=34412#post34412 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=34412#post34412 The media only focus on one thing – stuff that creates controversy and emotion and therefore sells. hence the media must take a large proportion of the blame for the current circumstances.

And no amount of backtracking and trying belatedly to support the "silent majority" by opposing the EFB nd?

]]> Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:56:31 +1300 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=34413#post34413 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=34413#post34413 I have to say I am distinctly unimpressed.

I'm also interested in what role police informers ( paid to infiltrate I assume) played in all of this. How many times did they instigate these conversations.

"I think we should kill John Key"

"I agree mate"

Ok round them up.

]]> Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:56:42 +1300 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=34414#post34414 http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/the-terrorism-files/?p=34414#post34414

I've really appreciated your consistent perspective on this Kyle, as much as I've been disappointed that many others on the activist left haven't been able to say: "if you were even contemplating violence, you have damaged our ideals and you are no part of us".

Thanks Russell, it's been four?

"During their investigations, police used sophisticated mobile phone eavesdropping technology and trained covert cameras on suspects' homes, a remote bush path and at vehicle tracks and camp training grounds.

They traced new suspects and gained information via computer sites, phone, bank and power records, Trade Me user?

Got to disagree with you on the talk at gun clubs line. I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone at a range day or competition talk about shooting the Prime Minister or leader of the opposition, nor have I ever heard them talk about killing people?

I'm also interested in what role police informers ( paid to infiltrate I assume) played in all of this. How many times did they instigate these conversations.

I'm only guessing, but I can't imagine there were any paid informants infiltrating.

If police got information from people who had been to?

What do others think of Shane Jones' analysis quoted above?

Is he saying that Tame Iti is just a crim with no sincerely held ideology?

I'm glad they don't have sopphistocated mind reading equipment.

I don't think there were any sophistocated minds invloved.

Well that is police standard practice all over the world. In any lefty campaign you always get some new guy who shows up prattling on about using violence etc.

I had one who kept asking me "where are the real meetings, you?

I don't generally agree with Shane on much, but he did strike something of a chord there. The ideology of Tame Iti does seem to be more?

"So let's suspend our condemnation..."

vs.

"But we do have one fact. The police were willing to blockade a whole town, and terrorise the inhabitants indiscriminately, based on the words and actions of a few."

Do you plan on actually doing what you're suggesting?

That was not a?

Then ensure Domestic aspect is included & strengthen Police role as domestic anti-terror agency – as opposed to SAS.

Shep: The Police are the "domestic anti-terror agency". The Special Tactics Group exists precisely because the cops are the lead agency in responding to terrorist incidents. Calling in the SAS is a?

Still. It will be interesting to see if all of Peter Williams comments and accusations make it into court and we see some police heads on the block (if half of his accusations hold up) or not (if none do).

Like both extremes of the discussion to date, don't expect?

W

It is directly in line with accounts I've heard about NF (not my friends).

I thought long and hard before I used the verb "terrorise". But what else would you call a pre-dawn raid by fully armed, armoured and masked people?

A reasonable reaction to people arming, training and talking seriously about killing innocent people?

Were they? thats the point.

You would expect that if this was "Serious" there would be planning going on, scouting of targets, preparation of explosives etc.

In this police leak there is not a mention of anything like that (if there was they would have it front and?

For the people who are suggesting treason, do any of you actually understand what the "owing allegiance" requirement means? It is more than simply being a citizen, it is being someone who holds a special place in society

That's not my understanding of treason at all. Certainly ordinary people have?

Were they? thats the point.

If the police had good reason to believe they were then the response is still what I would expect to see. And frankly, if that's "just a bit of wild talk" to you then I don't approve of the standards of behavior you're willing to?

I don't believe that a treason charge could ever be justified in peacetime these days.

A reasonable reaction to people arming, training and talking seriously about killing innocent people?

Do you really think that a reasonable reaction to a small group of people mouthing off is to blockade a whole town?

W

It said an informant was used but it appaears around other aspects rather than the training camps

Most revealing element to me, they were worried about police informers and accused one of their own.

Why would you be concerned about police informers if you were above board in your?

"talking seriously"

Were they? thats the point.

Well, yes. This wasn't just d*ckheads sitting around and mouthing off. They were backing up their words with guns.

Talking sh*t is not a crime.

Playing with guns is not a crime.

Combining the two may well be. Maybe not "terrorism", but pretty?

I'm also interested in what role police informers ( paid to infiltrate I assume) played in all of this. How many times did they instigate these conversations.
"I think we should kill John Key"
"I agree mate"
Ok round them up.

And if you don't like the way the story's?

I'm devastated, you really don't approve of me?

I don't know anyone who does talk like that, but even if they did it is not a crime, If I my cross post from?

As I said, is that it?

How many millions of bucks? how many police man hours? how many civil liberties thrown in the toilet? and all we have is "close to being nasty"?

Come on Russell.

but shallow that I am, I can't help chortling away to myself ... "Boy, this must really piss off the Herald".

Yep. That occurred to me too ...

Come on Russell.

Er, I didn't say that. And no being nasty to Deborah ...

You mean a small group of people possibly with guns and explosives, who had been training to use them from a town with only one road out, and in which there had been experience with criminals accessing community facilities to try and escape.

There's always going to be inconvenience?

I don't generally agree with Shane on much, but he did strike something of a chord there. The ideology of Tame Iti does seem to be more about getting himself on TV, than working for the betterment of his people...

as posted on tother thread
tame iti grins

also of note,?

Come on Russell.

Actually, it was me who said "pretty damned close to being something very nasty".

"It's highly unlikely the police would have used paid informants"

Really? they do it with every other crime. Why would they suddenly develop scruples around this?

Good question for a enterprising journo though.

"Commissioner, can you assure us that your informant was never paid?

*blush*

Do you really think that a reasonable reaction to a small group of people mouthing off is to blockade a whole town?

Again, you're trivialising the available evidence while talking up accusations about police behavior during the Ruatoki raid. They had people "mouthing off" while __backing up that talk with?

There was a fascinating discussion on Kathryn Ryan's show just now, which made it clear that the affadavit has actually been quite widely circulated amongst interested parties. So it's probably a police source, but it might well not have been.

Yesterday in the House Ron Mark asked a?

So all we have, as predicted, is some wild talk and playing soldiers on a hillside.

Not a good look but hardly "terrorism"

That's a sight worse than some wild talk and some guys learning to fly airplaces and buying box-cutters.

Going to Helen was the process followed as per SAS involvement. I think we could loose STG or a domestic focused SAS.

My suspicion is that there is a cross over?

The ideology of Tame Iti does seem to be more about getting himself on TV, than working for the betterment of his people...

Thanks very much Tame Iti!! Thanks for thinking about the rest of us.

Tame is to my mind first and foremost an artist. Most artists i know?

The question that must be asked, is, "do the "terrorism files" show the other side?"

They are the affidavits presented to a judge in order to get the search warrants that were executed on the 15th of October. As a consequence, they are?

it is a very common thing for informants to be used and to receive lesser sentences (indeed Rob H can probably cite the part of the Commerce Act that encourages whistleblowing) but that doesn;t mean the events didn;t happen.

different story if it was a placed informer acting as?